I'm glad you're back Serena.

Initially I was rather hurt by your comments. Mainly because you said point blank the stuff I was feeling at one of the lowest points in my life.  You were saying the things that I myself felt for quite some time after specialson/Matthew was born and when he has been quite sick....that God had abandoned me, that  somehow I wasn't good enough and that Matthew was somehow undeserving of God's grace.  Hard stuff. I felt very alone.  I looked for God and couldn`t find Her.  You didn't say anything that I hadn't already thought.  It`s just hard when someone confirms your worst fears.

Apology genuinely accepted.  You add a lot to wondercafe.  Welcome back.

post removed

Thank-you specialmom for accepting my apology.

I did not mean that you or your son were somehow unworthy of God's grace.   I was expressing anger at God for allowing suffering in general in the world.  I badly botched my intent.  

duplicate post.

Serena:  Can you please provide the names of all your sockpuppets.

Hi Serena,

I didn't see what you ultimately typed that resulted in the thread being deleted.  I left the conversation when it became more than apparent that you were simply spoiling for a fight and attention.

I am not prepared to accept this apology at this time.  I simply have no way of knowing how genuine it is.  I expect that it will be some time before I trust you or anything you post.  I have wrestled quite a bit with even bothering to respond publicly.

I was privately attacked for my pointing out your lie.

I have no way of knowing of course whether that private attack was another member of the wondercafe or one of your cadre of false identities.

On several occasions you and "She-Devil" made great hay of my freudian slip.  Which, as it turns out was actually more truthful than your numerous protests.

You went to great lengths to attack my character.

Which ultimately shows how repulsive yours is.

The others can freely use this post and point to how weak a Christian I am because I don't abide by the 70 X 7 rule.  I have a boatload of apologies in my inbox from you which shows of what little value they actually are.

If you can show me that you have been transformed maybe I will change my mind later and we can be reconciled.  As it stands right now I trust you not at all.

Grace and peace to you.

John

That is understandable.

You can see if this useraccount was banned but even if it is banned it may not be mine.  Other people have sockpuppets.

 Which ultimately shows how repulsive yours is. 

Yes.  I do not defend anything I have done.  I admit it was wrong and I should not have done it.  There is no excuse.

 I have a boatload of apologies in my inbox from you which shows of what little value they actually are.

Yes.   This is true.  I was wrong.  I lied.  I really have nothing more to add.

If you can show me that you have been transformed maybe I will change my mind later and we can be reconciled.  As it stands right now I trust you not at all.

 Fair enough.

As far as the 70X7 thing that is in your Bible not mine and you have to live out your faith in the way you see fit.   Since I do not believe in the Bible I will not hold you to that.

I am sorry that you cannot forgive me or trust me.  This is something that I cannot force or even expect.  If I was in your position I would probably react the same way you are now.

I cannot apologize enough for my lies.   Sometimes (and this is one of those times) words are not enough.

I wasn't going to comment then I saw this. I do hope that you can be transformed Serena. I also hope you are seeking out some help and support in real life.

Peace be with you.

Correct me if I'm wrong.... but I don't think Christ put any sort of due date or time frame on that rule?

Perhaps He understood us enough to know that it's better to take enough time to be truely ready to forgive in good conscience, than to forgive immediately and not mean it?

But then again, I'm probably a much weaker Christian than even you, John

No?

Thank you Serena for acknowledging your mistakes. I have enjoyed our interactions on Social and look forward to your wisdom in the future.

Welcome back Serena.

There are some good thoughts here about lessons the cafe gang has learned. I think I'll add my thoughts in that regard on the more geneal thread that Meredith started.

I'm going to preface this by saying that I've had many private conversations with Serena. I think it's only fair that anyone reading know that context.

It's up to each of us to decide how much, and when, we will trust/let our guard down, in regards to Serena (which is also true of anyone else who has hurled something at us, isn't it? Whether here or anywhere else)

I have considerable faith in Admin's judgement. Since Admin seems satisfied that she is sincere and that whatever discussions they may had were satisfactory to lift her ban, I am going to start from the position of trusting that judgement.

Being in online community is sometimes like living in an area prone to flooding. One could take the postion of never entering the water, just in case, but look at all the fun you''d miss splashing around.

FWIW

David

I'm with RevJOhn on this. I don't see any value in it. Heck, Geo, his "dad", his "sister", etc, etc, are still around. If everyone who had more than one identity here unmasked, I think I'd get lonely

I just knew you were a sockpuppet solipsist.

Heh. Still trying to play Wonderleader, eh.

Actually, as someone who was a target of some of hte posts, I would appreciate knowing who the sockpuppets are.

and I note no apology to me for hurtful comments on 5 oaks thread.

Sorry for the hurtful comments to you on the 5 oaks thread.

Disclosure of the sockpuppets would help to confirm the sincerity of the apology, perhaps . . .

Jae, Musicsooths, and GR thank-you for your support. 

I do agree with you Witch that Jesus did not set a time limit on forgiveness.  (even if I don't believe Jesus existed....but that topic is for another thread)

Just an observation, Serena, but you seem pretty adept at dodging direct questions...perhaps that is why people doubt your sincerity.

Hi Witch,

Thanks for catching that.  Many don't.  They believe that forgiveness is an immediate obligation.

Well, in the kingdom to come it is allegedly the last who come first.  Maybe we are right where we are supposed to be.

Grace and peace to you.

John

Yes, you would.  There was RevJohn with Weird Al and Madmonk and StevieG with Ace & Gary.   You would be alone.   :)  I am sure that I have forgotten others.

[quote=GoldenRule 

Being in online community is sometimes like living in an area prone to flooding. One could take the postion of never entering the water, just in case, but look at all the fun you''d miss splashing around.

 David

[/quote]

Thanks for your helpful post.  You offer a great analogy here.

However, floods can often damage bridges that have been built.  It's good to be patient and to understand that it takes time to repair or build up bridges after a crisis.

...

Hi Pinga,

That is a reasonable request. as you were indeed the target of attacks.

I just don't know if it is something that needs to be public.

I admit I am torn.

Serena has confessed to three.  I knew of three more that she had confessed to privately.  There was another that I had inquired about and she vehemently denied privately as well as publicly that she has recently apologized for privately.

I suspect that there are more that I didn't catch.

Admin has asked my help in identifying sockpuppets since I have admitted to knowing of one that was still active after her initial ban.

I have shared what I know with them.

Only Admin and Serena would know which sockpuppets she has confessed to.  Perhaps it would be better to ask Admin privately.

Grace and peace to you.

John

 Hi Serena,

Observations so far.

Somehow your apology doesn't hinge on you changing so much as it appears to rest on my integrity.  Otherwise I see no point in your editting your response to me to include this heavy-handed admonition about what my Bible says.

And of course, by seeking to remind me about what my Bible says you are in no way attempting to hold me to it.

Here is more justification for your use of sockpuppets.

First lets make sure that you point out that I admitted to having one, which means that my strong reaction to your use of them is purely hypocritical and therefore I need to change more than I should be expecting you to.

Again, your apology, which should be focussing on what "You" have done and what "You" plan to do about it becomes a vehicle for you to be the martyr and repeat your litany of "I'm being persecuted for doing something everybody does because I'm not in the in-group."

I refuse to play this game.

Grace and peace to you.

John

The response to GR was not part of my apology.  

1.  I made the sockpuppets.

2.  I was over 18 and not under any duress when I made the sockpuppets.  I made the out of my own free will.

3.  There is no in and out crowd group.

4.  Admin has been very fair and patient me ad they are with everyone.

5. I was wrong making the sockpuppets and even everyone on wondercafe made a sockpuppet it does not give me license to make a sockpuppet.

6.  I was wrong for using my sockpuppets to attack people.

7.  I was wrong for lying about my sockpuppets.

8.  I royally screwed up and I accept the responsibility for that.

****This is what I am saying with regards to myself in the area of sockpuppetry***

What I failed to say and I should have is that others were hurt by my sockpuppetry and I am sorry for that.  It was not just just my sockpuppetry that hurt others it was my way of engaging that was wrong.  At times it could get personal.  I further caused division by  (When things were going badly) blamed it on in/out crowd when the blame was mostly MY behaviour.  I am sorry for that.  I further caused division of false accusing Admin of being biased.  I am sorry I said that because it is not true. 

I was wrong in other areas and not just sockpuppetry.  The sockpuppets are gone and they will stay gone.  Admin is helping me in that regard.  What needs to change is the way I treat others here and not come on here spoiling for a fight.  This is where I have been wrong.  I screwed up many times.  I had people trying to help me behind the scenes (via wondermail) and I continued to screw up.

So the thread was a symptom of many things not just the one thread.  There are more things that I needed to take responsibility for and I have at least verbally at this time.   Now I need to show you all that I CAN do better.

Serena we can all do better .I hope that we all learm something over time .Growth is the most positive thing I can think of happening.

 Folks, I've been reading through this. I have no axe to grind because I haven't been affected by any of the things that caused this, but don't you think this thread has gone on long enough? 

Serena has offered an apology. Some accept it, some don't. That's a personal decision. I don't see a need to engage in an ongoing conversation about it. What I do know is that if I were someone coming onto to WC website for the first time and this were the first discussion I came across I think I'd shake my head and be out of here as fast as possible. 

I think these are wise words - it is time to let go of the past, and move forward.

What is done cannot be undone, but we can learn from our mistakes and accept that relationships and life don't always turn out as expected or as we wish. 

Hopefully Wondercafe can continue to be an inviting place, especially for newcomers.

I'm going to stick my neck out a bit here. Feel free to take a swing at it folks.

I'm not going to judge anyone for whether or not they are prepared to forgive Serena, or even if they are prepared to believe her. I have repeated that often enough that I hope people can keep it itn mind while they read what I have to say following...

Looking at just this thread, Serena has endured quite a bit of criticism, much of it justified, someof it, IMHO not, not only of her actions, and history, but also of her apology.

It is the last that I have some problems with. The Serena of past incarnations would have been very defensive of her apology. This Serena has endured all the criticisms of her apology, has edited it to change the subjects of the criticism, has expanded to clarify it, etc. but has somehow managed not to become defensive about it in the manner we would have come to expect.

That's a huge step.

Think about it. How many of you have ever offered the perfect apology? I certyainly havn't, and I apologise each and every day (I'm married after all). Imagine how hard it would be for a person who has been very defensive for as long as we've known her, to NOT be defensive about it?

How hard it must be, even if you weren't sincere, to keep from jumping on every criticism, every expressed doubt, every comment. And further to take those criticisms and try to make your apology further fit the concerns of the ones you are apologizing to.

I don't think I could do it.

Now I'm not suggesting that's proof of sincerity on her part. I'm not suggesting that it's proof of change. I'm not even trying to criticize anyone for feeling or reacting the way they are.

What I am suggesting is..... maybe we could cut her a little slack.

I mean it looks to me like she's trying.... today.

It looks to me like she is treating people as good as can be expected of anyone, and a lot better than some of us deserve... today.

Is it sincere? Who knows. Is it longlasting? Who knows. Is it jsut a ploy to stay here? Who knows. What I do know is that talking to her is pleasant... today

What I do know is that her apology, as flawed as it may be, is better than one I probably would have made in the same circumstances... today.

Tomorrow is another day. None of us knows who will turn out to be whose sockpuppet or whose fake personality, or whose falswe prophet tomorrow. All we know is who we are speaking to... today.

So what say we take what she has said, or more imnportanlty the manner in which she has said it, at face value, and give her some encouragement and credit for... today.

People often turn into who we tell them they are.

That's what I needed to hear.  It all needs to be held lightly, doesn't it? 

Thanks Witch.

 I'll tune (or is that "toon") in tomorrow for another exciting instalment of "As the World Turns".

Witch your words are very wise. Thank you.

Time will tell . . .

Yes, Witch, thanks for saying what really needed to be said.

Well said witch!

Walking with a friend in the dark is better than walking alone in the light.
Helen Keller

Thanx folks, but really, I'm not the one who could use the encouragement.

Also a wise comment/.

I'm suddenly reminded of Jesus' story of the Prodigal Son by this thread. Jesus couldn't have meant we should forgive those who might not deserve it, could he?

The sockpuppets that RevJohn solicited confessions from me (and that he keeps referring to) are Zerlina and  Aurora.  I confessed Garfield to him on my own.  He agreed to keep them confidential.  We see how well that worked out.

Now you all have that priviledged information.

I'll meet you here with popcorn, qwerty...you'll bring the lawnchairs, right?  It doesn't bother me if Serena's apology is sincere or not.  I've witnessed this cycle many times and although I'm always rooting for her to treat herself more tenderly....It would be foolish to guess at the end of this story for some time.   

Hope is free, though...and so's the popcorn. 

Serena you have never hurt me directly. However if you are admitting to using sockpockets I would like to know which ones were yours. Sometimes it seems to me that certain people like She Devil are sockpockets or made up by some one. However as the worry wart that I am, I also become concerned and worry for certain identities. Even if I suspect they are false, I general do not completely dismiss any ID as fake or insincere.  In my mind there is always the chance that the unbelievable could be true.

I have known people who have been dismissed and hurt because they were not believed, and I do not want to do the same.   

It would help me if you told me who your sockpockets were. i could at least forget about them, and stop being concerned for them and their families, even if it is only a little worrying to me, it still has an effect on me that can be painful. I suspect  that was not your intent when you created sockpockets, but you should know that doing so hurts people you are not fighting with too.

Alex:

Singlemom, Samantha (long deleted)  Garfield (long deleted) Zerlina, Butthead,  She_Devil, Aurora, WishSong, Aerogal, and ChefSockpuppet

These sockpuppets (with the exception of Singlemom and ChefSockpuppet) have all been deleted by Admin.

WishSong never posted.  I changed Butthead's name to ...........  He posted in one thread as a joke identity and never posted again.  ChefSockpuppet was also benign and never hurt or attacked anyone.  He even admitted publicly that he was a sockpuppet several times.  I don;t think Aerogal attacked anyone either.  I just created her because I took a break as Serena becase everyone seemed to be fighting with Serena at the time.  I can't find Samantha anymore.  She only posted in one thread and that thread was deleted.  Singlemom posted in a few threads.  Many of these sockpuppets are close to 4 years old.

Thank-you Admin

Chefsockpuppet was a sockpuppet?

See I never would have guessed.

Yeah he even repeatedly publicly admitted that he was a sockpuppet and had a master.  He was hidden well.  He even had a sock for his avatar.

Some work will need to be done by me to repair those bridges.

 Gee!  I thought everyone already knew she-devil was serena.