Oh dear, I wish there was an edit function

I've never hoid of 50 shades of...

Interesting Church...or is that a mainstream thing?  I dunno

(imagine the stuff that goes on in such places as the Vatican or in the Dome on the Rock, Mullah doing a 3-way with a Rabbi & a Cardinal and some teenagers?)

The GVRD has a lively BDSM community...I grok BDSM -- it's to get people out of themselves...there's even such bizarre things as consensual nonconsenuality...

I've learned some of my limits and what I like...I've noticed, for me, the difference between pain and pleasure is really, really permeable...

And that males can have multiple orgasms as well :3

People tend to eroticis what we are afraid of and what hurts us. IT how some people cope. I have no pproblem with that, what I have problems is the mainstreaming.  In fact I have a problem with mainstreaming of most things. 

If it's safe (physically & emotionally - using safe words for "stop"), private, consentual, & doesn't involve anyone who isn't able make an informed choice, AND doesn't frighten the horses, why judge?
Haven't read the book, but I know it's popular enough to start a BDSM fad - "mainstreaming" if you wil...

This can be really fun

This could be the long sought after answer to dropping church enrolment that everyone has been looking for.  Certainly it could add some needed interest to church Board meetings, especially when they start to go overtime.  I imagine that the proceedings would unfold with much greater discipline ... Yes Madame Chairman ... No Madame Chairman ... Yes Madame Chairman I have spoken for more than the allotted time and I gladly submit to any penalty you may wish to impose.  Thank you Madame Chairman.

Perhaps, too, people might pay closer attention to performance of their duties when it is their turn to "serve" in their committee. 

qwerty,

indeed, part of every member to minister to their flock and to rise to the occasion as an intimate part of pastoral and oral care...

communion would be even more fun...

Read the book......also have seen others reading the book at hotels and on airplanes.

It is a hot book...no question about it.

I'm not sure what the problem is ...it is a fantasy story....and gosh, sex is good.

I guess that I am with Ninja on this one.

Really? It's the Twilight of 2012. I can't seem to hit the web without seeing someone either praising or dissing it. Just Google "Fifty Shades of Grey" (the title of the first book in the trilogy). Oddly enough, it started out as Twilight fanfic (or at least the writer started out writing Twilight fanfic, forget which). No interest in it here but apparently it's a more of a woman thing than a guy thing anyhow.

On the broader issue of kink ... as long as it's kept private, safe, and consensual, I'd say go for whatever floats your boat.

Mendalla

kinda like how i see Jorge Lois Borges writing his beautifully political and poetic works for a specific reason in a specific language and in a specific area of the world and then other people get a hold of it and 'Hey, this is a genre called Magic Realism...let's write more..."?

Which reminds me that, for the first time ever, ebook sales have outpaced paper book sales...I'm guessing what will happen is eventually the whole genre idea will not become as important (I think the notion of book genre was invented by the publishing industry to sell books and ebooks have a very different business model -- infinite print runs etc)

Something on the 'net that I don't know aboot :3

I think that's neat if it started out as fanfic :3

ps. this sounds like a fun book

I've heard of it, haven't read it though.  I actually didn't know it was about BDSM.  I doubt it is causing a 'fad' of BDSM behaviour.  Those who enjoy it tend to engage in it, and those who don't enjoy it don't engage in the behaviour.  Most people keep their sex lives private.  The book may open up some discussion, but I think that's about it though.  Maybe that's just my (and younger) generations though; while we may keep our sex lives private, we're still fairly open about discussing sex topics.

Thank you, jlin, for opening up conversation.

I wondered why WC had not mentioned it in Relationships or anywhere. On What are You Reading nobody said,  "50 Shades of Grey". I knew that there were people reading, likely with some dog eared pages. Part of me wanted to ask, but knew where that might go me being different and all. LOL

The local bookstore sold out time and time over. I would see people motioning to it to others and fanning themselves and other things to say "this is hot" or something. I heard people talking about it.  No church folks though. Not like the discussions of other best sellers like The DaVinci Code,The Shack,Twilight, The Help .... even the Hunger Games trilogy or The Girl With the Dragon Tattoo series or A Game of Thrones... Wonder why?  LOL

I did not buy nobody reading. Someone was buying these books. It led me to believe it was not the violence or anything keeping them silent....it was the S-E-X.

My mom and I were talking about the books. She mentioned seeing it on a daytime talk show and as the conversation went on I found out she had read it. (Now, my mom is less MissManners and more Roseanne Barr). We talked about content, influence, why people were reading,  people being "into it" or not.

Mom said some gems. (She tells it like it is, not all fancy and she will tell you were the bear went)

She said-
People read Lady Chatterley's Lover and then they talked about The Great Gatsby and The Sun Also Rises.
They read The Happy Hooker and did not dash out looking for a madame or a pimp.
How many read Mandingo like or Harlequin books? 
BDSM is the stuff you do not do. Otherwise, it is just sex.

What?

That one got me. Mom? What do you mean?

She said, "Some folks tickle and wrestle each other and that works. I would pee." (Told you she has edges) The same result, winding up the same place, can be snapping each other with a towel and chasing each other. Nobody calls them pigs or thinks they need help."

I will never be the same as mom said, "How many men and women get their butt cupped? How hard does the contact have to be to be a swat?" (My eyes started burning)

She asked how come blindfolding someone and leading them to the bedroom for rose petals or whatever is ok but the blindfold must come off before the s-e-x starts.... hmmm... she mentioned blindfolds and food before and after 9 1/2 Weeks.
 

We talked about what bondage is. Is it the silk scarf, pinned leg, hands held back? Is it just ropes and handcuffs? Do fluffy pink handcuffs count or only cold metal ones?

Mom said, "If I do it, it ain't BDSM, if I don't and they do, it is" and laughed.

I had to. I steeled myself.
"Uh, mom, you know I love you and will love you no matter what you say, is there something you want to tell me?"

Mom laughed.

She said, "Never met a vampire, don't want to be one or nothing. Never been a spy. Never went to court... I like those books and John Grisham. I like Ann Rule and it never made me go kill nobody. Your dad has never been had abs of steel, been a pirate or a plantation owner, nothing like that. Never hurt to dream or see how the other half lives. I read some books for the mystery, some for the setting, some for the author,  and I read some for the sex."

We both laughed. I love her.

At 70, she can finally say what she thinks without people thinking it is because she is low-class or crazy or a tramp.

LOL.

Love that discussion with your Mom SG!! 

Haven't read the book & don't have strong inclination to do so ... not sure why, but that's okay!  

Carolla -- I think for me , it was kinda like my aversion to ET...it was just too much..too much rave..too much everything.

It was sitting when I picked up a different book, so i grabbed it.  It is honestly more of a pornish harlequin...not a good book...but some hot sex writing

Okay, I've turned into a prude now that I'm 40...but not a prune...lol.  I do not understand the huge preoccupation with all things sex in our culture and if someone is just not into watching it, reading about it and discussing it in public and doing it 50 times a week and talking about it constantly, there's something wrong with them, says society.  It's private, it should be private. I don't care what people do in their bedrooms as long as noone's getting hurt...but I wish people would keep their private activities private. Nobody seems to have any self control when it comes to sex in our society...we want what we want and we want it now...everyone else be damned...it hurts our society, our communities, imo...this preoccupation with having to get what we want when we want it in order to be "whole" or valuable...and books like this are like feeding our addiction to selfishness. We live in such a selfish society. There are so many issues that should be a bigger priority.

wow,kimmio...that's a wee bit over the top.

as sg indicated, the books have been around forever, that are like this...from lady chatterly's lover to the happy hookers.  books giggled about, or talked about...sitting on shelves in homes...

Yeah, it's gone from Lady Chatterly's Lover, to books about BDSM...we just can't get enough. Yeah, I am over the top...conservative in that respect...but I feel sex is something private between me and my partner, and I am kind of getting sick of all the public expressions of sex and sexuality...of how much of a priority it has become in our society. There;s war going on, people are starving, our environment is falling to pieces...but we gotta get it on now!  And who talks about love between partners? You get what i mean? It feels like a deception, a distraction, to keep us into our own selves and selfish desires and forget about the wider world. And really...an orgasm is an orgasm is an orgasm...they;re easy to come by...pardon the pun...and they produce endorphins no matter how they're obtained....one doesn't really "need" all the drama or their attachment to self worth...like jlin said...who cares?

KImmio,

We can focus on our society and our times, and ask, "WTF?"

Yet, if we really contemplate it, without rose coloured glasses or blinders, we may find we wax nostalgic for days that never really existed.

Because something was not discussed or open does not mean it did not exist. We can think the 1950's were all Leave it to Beaver, but plenty of daughters had their bedroom door creak open in the middle of the night. There are incest cases in Puritan records.

People did not talk about sex, but had a mistress, slave girls, concubines.

I mean they did talk and talk and talk....there were travelling caravans of groups who came into town and talked about nocturnal emissions and masturbation and sexual urges but they did it in negative ways. You could hear lots about temptress women. You coudl hear about procreation and sex being something you did but did not enjoy, you better not enjoy it....

Hysteria... well... they talked abut that too... and made vibrators.

If you do genealogy and dig into a register of births, deaths, and marriages, they were not talking but there was alot of premarital sex and fornication going on.

I mean they even made laws about it. In the Puritan colonies, if a woman involved became pregnant with an illegitimate child, the man had to marry the woman or pay regular sums of money to the mother for the keeping of the child.

But, those Puritans certainly did not have sex and did not seek to satisfy urges like they were important. I am not sure how they had little Puritans, but they found a way. There were not preoccupied with sex. Well, they were but in NOT doing it, right? There were witches to be burned and all kinds of stuff to be more focused on.

Those Puritans were pure. Well, except for those bundling boards. I mean, they could not have sex, because they were separated, but young Puritans who were courting could sleep together before marriage, in the same bed and the top parts were fair game. It was all very tame.

Puritans also took marriage very serious and said adultery was any act of fornication with a married or betrothed woman. Married men who had sexual intercourse with single women were punished for fornication, not adultery.

The Marques de Sade wrote quite a few years back.

Biblical days, people did not talk about needing sex now, they just grabbed a slave girl and they took what they wanted. Oh, yeah, they did talk about it and talked and talked about sex and who you could have sex with and when...

Hmm....

Yeah, I understand that, SG. Keeping sex entirely in the closet is not a good thing, I mean, to not be able to discuss it at all with anyone, to deny that it is a natural occurance...that's not a good thing. I am just saying, its blasted at us 24/7..it's a huge priority in our society, and I feel that people put too much stalk in their sex lives to the point where they base their self worth on how and on how much they're "gettin' it"...amdn if they're not, they're told they should call this chat line, and if they don't want to then there's a pill for that...it's such a public spectacle that people question their own worth according to what the media tells them is acceptable. It's really not a big deal...but we make it a huge deal. I personally couldn't care less aboout BDSM, and I don't want to be marketed to about it on mainstream TV, to be sexually harassed through the airwaves with questions about am I busty enough, sexy enough, kinky enough, etc. ...to have the book available in an adult bookstore for those interested, fine, whatever floats someone's boat, they're free to make that choice...but there are far more important things to care about that I wish were promoted more strongly, at the very least as strongly, as sex is in our society, through our media. We seem to be a society increasingly addicted to sex..."chasing the dragon".

What is so different about the media telling us, subliminally or overtly, that a woman has to be a 36 (or 38, or 42)-24-36 vixen with legs a mile long, or a man has to be able to get it up on command.. from the media telling us about what constitutes a quality relationship , or a healthy sex life? And, can an increasing appetite for all things sexual, and tendency to use sex (as Alex mentioned) as a way of coping with our fears (by eroticising our fears), not actually point to a psycholigical problem, rathter than an expression of healthy sexuality or sexual freedom? Or am I just being a prude? 

I'm on the last chapter of this book which I did find a bit boring. I was searching for book reviews. I did find an imaginary pic. of Christian Grey and also talk about a possible upcoming movie.

Here is a link with a number of quite interesting comments, food for thought.

Is Fifty Shades of Grey dangerous? Kathryn Casey, Contributor

What I find unsettling is that in Christian Grey I see the attributes of so many of the men I’ve written about over the years, the ones who abuse and sometimes even end up murdering their intimate partners. Experts have said for decades that rape is more about control than sex. What I’ve seen over and over again is that a man who needs to dominate, humiliate, and physically abuse a woman isn’t a hero. He’s not doing it out of love. That guy isn’t the man of any woman’s dreams. He’s a mistake, one she won’t end up rehabilitating but fleeing.

So there, I’ve said it. I know some of my friends will say that three decades as a crime writer has warped me to the point that I don’t understand a book like James’s. Perhaps they’re right. But I do find it disturbing. And I wonder what it says about our society that these books are so incredibly successful. What do you think?

http://www.forbes.com/sites/crime/2012/06/23/is-fifty-shades-of-grey-dan...

photo

http://www.examiner.com/article/first-real-photo-of-christian-grey-from-...

Personally, I am glad that there are so many perverts on WC :3

see you in the bath house, darlinks

No you are making sense. Howevr after such a long period of sexual opression and denial, people might claim otherwise. Howevr that is all the more reason to to say what you do. We are trapped in binary thinking on all issues, and it makes disscusion dificult, but it also shows why it is important.

I've read all three books in the trilogy.  There's no doubt that they are very graphic in their descriptions of sex and that there is A LOT of sex in the books.  At the same time, though, the plot is focused on a man who was abused as a child, then adopted, and who never really learned how to express or experience love in more traditional ways, and a woman who is very innocent and inexperienced who is having her first relationship with this man.  It's interesting to read how they navigate their developing relationship, each giving and compromising along the way.  About 2/3 of the way through the first book I started skimming the sex scenes to get to the more interesting plot.  I don't want to give too much away for anyone who might be interested in the books, but "vanilla" mostly wins out over kinky.  

MistsOfSpring

Thanks for the tip. I will be reading the other two also.

Kimmio

I agree with what you are writing. I very often agree with you on most of your posts about " whatever" . These books are classified as soft porn in the library I believe. I'm not at  all a fan of porn and I wouldn't be interested in the movie. However, I'm 73 and I've gone kind of foolish so the element of foolishness in these books appeals to me. I'm having some health problems and I need to laugh before I go yonder........

Stardust said:    "Experts have said for decades that rape is more about control than sex. What I’ve seen over and over again is that a man who needs to dominate, humiliate, and physically abuse a woman isn’t a hero. He’s not doing it out of love. That guy isn’t the man of any woman’s dreams. He’s a mistake, one she won’t end up rehabilitating but fleeing."

This is what I mean by the gist of the novel entering our society.  I had a boss who, I am guessing as someone who has had to cope with him has a borderline personality issue ( autism?), has had from an early age and has from an early age and as a very bright person has figured to memorize and  imitate various socionorms(films, radio, t.v.. books)  in order to communicate with people.  He is a controller but too nervous and introverted to be a charismatic - so he grasped the Christian Grey character as one of his methods of communication and as he is a bully by nature ( that lovely unloved autistic personality) enjoys crapping on his staff.  

At the time, I hadn't even heard of the book and so didn't have a clue what he was on about really, I just knew that I felt scared, intimidated, humiliated and stupid.  This he would have succeeded in producing in another theme, I realize.  I am not to blame BDSM - it's jus that it has convenient sensitivity deficiencies.

  I started to get suspicious of him acting out films as he did let out quotes from several, and then he started repeating a few actions that I now take come from the novel.  Seen in that light, it is a little less intimidating, still, what he said and did were actually a little traumatizing to me and left me very insecure and unemployable in the legal adminstration in this small city (gossip, grape vine, secretarial harems et al). 

The funny thing is that I recognized the BDSM games but only from a really hardcore knowledge base, as I had no idea of the soft core porn infiltrating the insecurely socialized.  So, having been raised to be fair, equal, open, literate to BDSM from an early age and by homAsexual men, I responded in fair and even way.  Wrong wrong wrong.  I am still dealing with the emotional fall out of this.   

So, anyway it was kind of like office rape, definitely sexual harassment but what I am thinking is that if he was so engaged, so are many others in private offices. 

As for the ex-boss.  He sure had an AWFUL LOT of interest in the venue.

BDSM can also involve something like this

(don`t worry, completely safe to watch)

When it comes to books  on sex - this  does not sound like on my "must read" list.

Why?

 Well, you see I have this psychological theory on erotica (that shouldn't surprise you - by now you will have observed I have psychological theories on every facet of human behaviour).

When it "comes"  (impossible to not use that so very obvious word) to erotica,  my theory is we read what we would like - but is not happening - in our own sex lives.

This theory was first formed after a discussion about sex with a close friend. (who, for obvious reasons, shall remain nameless).

She confided that she wished hubby would tie her up and rape her - despite protesting loudly....

Now, I happen to know that this woman controls everything that happens in their household - even down to paying the bills and deciding where they go for holidays.

In life she is happy with her dominant role, but, when it comes to sex, she wants the reverse........

By contrast, when it comes to sex, I'm happy for the other to take the lead. That was the way I was raised - it's what  nice well-bred young women were once raised to think.

It wasn't until I was in my forties that I thought it was acceptable to say, "Um, I'd like it if you'd......."

So, in my erotic fantasies, I love to take the lead...... There is usually some sensitive, intelligent man (Kevin Spacey?, William Hurt?) who just happens to think I'm the best thing ever, and can't wait for me to perform my magic......

Sadly, even that's becoming a thing of the past.

These days I'm  more interested in a lobster thermidor  than good sex.

here's something interesting to add to the pot

(he also has spent time studying human irrationality -- chansen might like to check him out -- and he has some blurbs that made me think of publics that blame corporations for 'not protecting the environment/not thinking of the future' because we aren't wired for that type of thinking but for short-term)

Hi Pilgrims...I just have to wonder...how does a "I wish he would take the lead now and then" fantasy turn into an "I wish he would tie me up and rape me" fantasy? There's a big difference. Rape is about violence...sex shouldn't be, imo, and if it is, even mentally, even if it is "pretend" there's a deeper problem going on, me thinks, that should probably be addressed outside the bedroom, i.e. with a counsellor..

I'm sure if we hooked up one of those lil MRI mind reading thingamabobs to your brain and `listened`, you`d be very surprised what ideas & thoughts you have that don`t even reach your conscious mind :3

The fantasy of rape wouldn`t be rape.  And if the people in question did it physically, it wouldn`t be rape, because rape is non-consensual.

Every one has different tastes -- there are even subcultures within subcultures -- like Furry Christian BDSMers :3

hmm, PP, that is not my finding.....books, reading are just different than real life....they are a way to explore different ideas.

Hi jlin

I'm sorry you had such a bad experience with your boss. The type of man you describe as your boss isn't a new creation.

I worked in offices back in the 50's, 60's and 70's. He was very much alive and thriving back then as he is today.  I've met him in many other places too!

I'm very curious regarding why these books have a cult like following already so I've been reading like mad on Google. Google is full up!  They even have the sex toys for sale that are mentioned in the book. There is a hotel  holiday pkg. with perks  and there's a website with a b-day cake for Christian. 

I love psychology. These books  definitely appeal more to women than to men. The men are making huge fun of them in videos.

Hotel getaway:

http://www.nydailynews.com/blogs/pageviews/2012/06/hotels-in-seattle-and...

Cake for Christian

http://www.nydailynews.com/blogs/pageviews/2012/06/christian-greys-birth...

BDSM isn't rape.  It's entirely consentual; both parties go in to it with limits and expectations and they use safe words if either becomes uncomfortable with what is going on.  Obviously there are people who can exploit the situation, but that's not an expectation of BDSM. In the novels, Christian Grey has an agreement and a full discussion with Anastasia about what she is and is not willing to do.  He's unwilling to cross those lines.  In fact, probably for contrast, there are parts in the book that depict very normal guys and normal interactions which are far less respectful of Anastasia than Christian Grey is.  There is another part in which her boss attempts to sexually assault her.  Even though Grey is supposedly very screwed up, he's actually the one who is most upfront and respectful.  

In a good BDSM relationship, the submissive is the one holding all the power.  The dominant partner knows the limits that the submissive insists upon and it's clear between the two of them what is allowed.  There is a safe word to put a stop to everything instantly if that's what the submissive wants.  Both people enter the relationship willingly and with full knowledge of what it involves.  They might choose to have a 24/7 BDSM relationship or it might be an occasional thing, depending upon their agreed upon choices.  

I'm not an expert on BDSM...I understand it is consentual, but that doesn't mean the desire to do it doesn't come  from something deep in the psyche that is far more dangerous and damaging. In any event, I  do think it's a whole lot of misdirected effort and attention though...not every culture has the luxury, and I am not just talking sharia law, or other  patriarchal laws, etc. but about the luxury of seemingly abundant time and energy, to be so indulgent with their personal passions while others in the world are at war and dying and starving...and they are at war and dying and starving, largely because we collectively, are overly indulgent with individual passions of all sorts...and when they take over our thinking, problems in society ensue. And I know this is a very conservative view...one that I haven't always had a firm opinion on...but I do now. Our preoccupation with sex is one manifestation of our overall greed. Combine that with a peoccupation with "dangerous sex", I think it heads into dangerus territory, misogynist territory, even violent territory...on the psyche, which makes it's way into our collective consciousness if we're not careful...and judging by howmuch it already has, I would have to say we're not very careful. People seem to love to flirt with danger...that doesn't mean it's not a problem that we do so.

That's not to say that I think any and all sex is bad. But I do believe it should be done out of love...is the best way and should be encouraged if people choose to do it (and if they don't make se a priority there's nothing wrong with that or with them). Somehow, I really don't equate BDSM with love.

I also want to add, that I feel that the idea that we can have "fun" with or be enthralled with stories about rape role play in ours or others' sex lives is an affront to those who have exprienced rape and abuse for real. And for those who have experienced rape and abuse, to act it out in sexual situations, to me points to the fact that they are very much hurting and damaged still...and I don't believe such enactments help, but that they reinforce, the negative effects and keep people further away from being able to have loving sexual relationships.

wtf kimmio?

dangerous sex?

something deep in the psyche that is damaging & dangerous?

you have got to be kidding

they are dying because we are overindulgent?

my gosh woman......

i am not sure where to begin with your over the top and outrageous post.

Kimmio, Pinga, Mists

For sure, BDSM ranks on a continuum.   The following statements are from my research and I will refrain from offering my opinion .

In all liklihood, sadomasochism was popularised in business and middle class culture through the proliferation of bullying, punitive measures, rape and pedophelia from the "public" schools in Europe mostly England;

However, the from despotic regimes where torture is a means of communication, the psychological expression of BDSM can lead to murder or suicide.  In the history of BDSM in the United States, this has certainly been the case with gay men.  Or that it has been the case that middle class  gay men have sought "purer" and "more authentic" means of torture, than what has been offered up at private leather clubs where whips are checked at the door.  

Indeed, whereas the clubs often have men paid to be buff and Sadistic, more desperate gay masochists may be looking for something heavier and can go looking for excons and murderers who go psycho, rather than playing by the rules.

Rules are what it is all about, and people need to confirm the rules before playing a game; however, not everyone wants to play a game and they want the situation to be dire and life changing.  Sometimes, it ends  in death.  Most times people get out when they see death coming.

Death doesn't necessarily come from torture or violence, it can come from Hep C, HIV, or a number of other health related factors - TB is becoming popular again, due to prison outbreaks of the disease.

As for rape.  Yes, as feminists, it is very hard to resign one's self to recurring rape fantasies or S/M needs.  One Freudian's take on why feminists still have rape and S/M fantasies is that the world gets so overwhelming for most feminists and that we tend to take on so much personal responsibility for our selves in the world and for the world as well, that quite often the desire to resign one's self to complete loss of control will be overwhelming .

Further, the statistics support that the large majority of people who have rape fantasies ( male or female) would never once consider following up the fantasy with reality.

I agree with Kimmio's statement that we need to support women who have been raped. My caveat, is that, as Dr. Ruth says, limiting one's fantasies, limits one's enjoyment of sex.

Gotta say, possum, your posts show a heavy emphasis on stereotyping...........

As I said, the woman in question is a close friend of mine. She is happily married and loves her husband - someone less in need of counseling I can't imagine.

I agree with you that love in a relationship is paramount. But surely open communication is essential in love?

For me, one of the joys of love is knowing you can trust the other with revealing your shadow - the side we all have that society and sometimes ourselves find difficult to accept.

We all lose our temper, say the "wrong" things, act selfishly. In short, we are all capable of being a right pain in the arse..............

Ah, but the joy and gratitude of knowing that, despite this, you are still very much loved by your significant other.

This complete love, frees you to the joys of complete love in return.

Complete love is precious, and sadly often missing in relationships.

As I write I'm remembering feeling more than a little foolish as I pranced around in some black lacey nightwear my husband once bought for me for my birthday. It did nothing for me - but I wore it because it gave him pleasure..........

But, here's the thing.....

If  I had hated wearing the sexy nightwear I know my husband would not have insisted - out of respect for my feelings. In short, it was consenting - not forced.

For me, this is the issue - not "what's done", but if it's consenting.

My caution here is with the word consenting. If a man or woman consents to something that is either physically or emotionally damaging to themselves - then yes, they do need counseling.

I didn't intend to stereotype your friend in particular. My apologies. I am speaking in general terms about it...but since you brought up the example, I refered to it.  I think the above thing you said is what I am getting at.  I feel that consenting to such a thing is emotionally damaging.  I think it is denial to say otherwise. Because...I cannot see how those sorts of fantasies cannot be the result of underlying issues...i mean who gets off on rape..really..unless they have some sort of deep unresolved problems? I am not saying that they don't deserve help with those problems, but really. If those underlying issues are not dealt with first, and I am not sure if they are if someone is having pervasive rape fantasies, then they may not recognize the behaviour as being physically or emotionally damaging to themselves (or others for that matter).

If it makes anyone feel any better...I feel the same way about violent video games and violent movies. I think it's all pretty sick. But that's me. I mean, how are we learning that we can't have fun unless it's depraved? If it's "clean", it's not fun?

I think people are too afraid, now, to actually say that something sexual could be damaging (the binary thinking that alex mentioned...alex is so often brilliant)...it's the opposite of sexual repression... it's the opposite extreme, and I don't think it's good. I agree with jlin about fantasies, but I seriously question if it's psychologically healthy to have rape fantasies. 

Of that which we do not know aboot we should pass over in silence...

(...yeah right; then there'd be no internet or 9 o'clock news...)

yeah, the news is violent...but it is (with biases in commentary) depicting real harm being done/ happening to real people...which should make us want to stand up and put a stop to it, for real...I  would think. I guess I don't see how allowing violence to kick around in our psyches without questioning the origin of where those thoughts are coming from (i.e. are they coming from a buried experience of our own, are they coming from the entertainment mediatelling us BDSM is the latest thing to spice up our sex lives, etc... even indulging in it, even if it's role play, does anything  good for the collective consciousness. These ideas in the heads of the wrong people are extremely dangerous...maybe not for everyone, but they are for some, and they are painful reminders for others who have experienced real violence, and that's enough of a catalyst to rethink things...why feed those thoughts and behaviours? If we were immersed in healthy thoughts and behaviours, could our own thought patterns and behaviour around the subject of violence not change? Maybe. I believe it could.  On the other hand, if we don't transform the landscape of where we derive our ideas about the world and each other, it's doubtful that our collective  thought patterns and behaviour will change.

Okay...so what I think about it all...and this is a very conservative opinion...is that sex is good in the context of a loving relationship. Promiscuity, I don't believe is good...the need to engage in sex with more partners, in more and more kinky ways, in order to fulfill a drive...it's like cocaine (but cocaine addicts will tell you cocaine aint so bad)...and the media are the pushers...and in relationships where communication is open, and BDSM is an interest....I question what those ideas are feeding into, and where they're coming from. I am not saying everyone who engages in BDSM is violent in real life...but I would question those thoughts, and try to be mindful of how they may be impacting broader society. The fact that this book is "trending" suggests that it could be having more of an impact than we realize..and I am quite honestly doubtful that it's a positive one in the long run..

This reminds me of something. A few decades ago, a feminist campaign was started to educate people about the sexism in the advertising industry, called "Killing Us Softly". It was updated several times. It did have an impact, on how we view women in advertising...most of us with a conscience don't turn a blind eye to blatant exploitation of women. I kind of feel the same way about promiscuity,  extreme sex and BDSM being sold to us as an acceptable standard..that it's a feminist issue...first it was about allowing women freedom to sexually experess themsleves on their own terms and not be defined by the dominant male culture...but now the oppression (of women and everyone)  is occurring under the guise of freedom...in the opposite extreme...we are all in a state of bondage...slaves to sex marketing....and if we really think about it...is it acceptable? or, does it, in it's own way, glorify violence, misogyny and emotional harm by eroticising it and attemptring to keep it on our minds in order to sell products (including books)...in the same way that the advertising industry has glorified the oppression of..and sometimes violence against...women in the past (and still does)? 

Kimmio, you seem to be connecting BDSM with promiscuity.  There may very well be a few BDSM behaviours which would require a certain amount of promiscuity.  There are more BDSM behaviours which could be done (and likely are) with monogamous couples.

I have had of some people who believe that D&S is a whole lifestyle.  It's not just their sex lives, but everything that revolves around the roles.  I don't think that's healthy.  Anything that's extreme enough where it is likely to cause long term physical damage isn't healthy either.  Other sexual practices can be enjoyed in a healthy relationship though.

I guess I do see it somewhere on the continuum of promiscuity....deviant sexual behaviour at any rate. I have a hard time getting my head around the idea that it's "loving" behaviour" considering the seed of the idea is rooted in violence.Yes, I do see it that way. I know people are not going to like me for it.