I'm not really sure about that, CH - but my best guess is . . . the  new site will not only move further away from the United Church, but it will be disassociated with the UCC, other than the old wondercafe having a link to the new wondercafe.  I could be wrong, but my understanding is that the UCC is letting Wonderafe go, and that the new site is a site standing on its own.  (Perhaps one of the three can clarify that).

So, the only tie to the UCC, as I understand it, will be the tie of the UCC people (paricipators) themselves.

As my participation in Wondercafe also began as a UCC initiative, therein lies my uncertainty as to my participation in the new wondercafe.  Not that I think there will be anything wrong with it, or not like it, but my initial reason for joining an on-line forum was because wondercafe was in my eyes - UCC.  I'm not saying I'm not going to participate - I am just saying for me it is still a "wait and see".

If it were still to be a UCCan site, it would make sense, and it would hopefully continue to draw people in from the UCCan, even if it were just because someone involved had questions.

It's no longer going to be a UCCan site though.  I'm hoping this means it will draw in others from wider backgrounds.  Keeping Church Life as is seems to much of an 'in group' thing to me.  If someone has a question about their mosque I would like it to be equally welcomed as the church life discussions are here.  That does mean that we would have to draw people who were knowledgible about that though.  I don't know if it will happen, and will take time if it does, but I would love to see a site like that.

There will be some connection to the UCCan, but a more tentative one. They will link to WC2 where they currently link to WC and some things like that. Pinga is still liasing with the GC office folks via Aaron over the exact parameters of that link so we don't have anything final. Getting the Mission Statement together is part of that puzzle, by the way.

That said, we feel (but others may feel differently) that we should be open to similar connections to other faith groups (e.g. I'm hoping I can drum up some interest at CUC).

As Pinga suggests in the Forum Names thread, we have discussed having a general Church Life discussion area, but also places where specific denominations/traditions could discuss matters like policy and governance that are specific concerns for them. So, you will still be able to discuss UCCan "business", but there may also be room for others to discuss their denomination/tradition specific issues as well.

However, that will ultimately be up to you, the membership. We are trying not  to make these decisions on our own but to put together a framework so that Wondercafe2 can get up and running on time. Once it is in place, changes can be made and, hopefully, some kind of council that includes a broader subset of our membership will be put in place as well.

I am not sure at this time if the initial roster of forums will be put to a vote, but that is a possiblity we will be discussing.

Mendalla

Wonder Cafe was, in a sense, a "child" of the United Church. One could use that analogy to point out that children grow up and become independent, establishing a life and identity separate from their parents, but still in relationship with them. Wonder Cafe 2 will be independent of and separate from the United Church, but the presence (I assume) of lots of United Church people would maintain the relationship.

I haven't participated much in these discussions about Wonder Cafe's future because I honestly haven't decided if I'm going to move over to WC2. There's a big part of me that says it was fun (and a good community) for the most part, but maybe it's time for me to move on.

You ask a good question, CrazyHeart.

First, let me start with this site.  What made it a United Church of Canada site?  It was the people, it was who came to it, it was the initial funding, and the ads and items that we presented.  There was never anything that made it UCC. You didn't have to be a member to join, far from it.  So, our being a united church of canada forum is because of the folks who were here .

Now, what about the new site.

We are asking the community what will this site be.  With Mission, with "who we are", etc.   Our presumption is that we want the same with minor tweaks for where stuff doesn't work, and for more stuff where it doesn't.

Now, for me, the biggest part is the posters.  Our current posters are predominantly united church of canada.  If all the folks above say "i'm not coming over" then, honestly, it won't be a united church of canada site.  

Chansen, Mandella and I have all named that our strength and connections are in the United Church of Canada.

We cannot say we are a United Church of Canada site.  Legally we cannot do that.

I have been talking with Aaron, and the other admins and working through have a United Church of Canada Liaison to the site.    As part of that, we are working on things like the redirect and other connections back to the United church of Canada.   If we do this site well, and there is a strong United Church of Canada presence, then, I anticipate that we might also have the UCC send folks our way for dialogue  through links on their sites (fingers crossed)

United church of canada folks have offered to be moderators on the site.   You have me in the admins and mandella has strong united church of canada connections.  

The idea for the new sub-forum for United Church of Canada was to allow for respectful dialogue without trolls.  Church Life of course would continue and be full, but, some folks have thrown up their hands in frustration when trying to talk polity and having troll like statements made by folks who weren't UCC.  So, a separate spot for those type of dialogues makes sense.

so, ultimatley, there is no way in any current structure for us to be formally connected to the united church of canada.   In truth, though, what keeps us is the people and how we work together.  If people choose not to join or participate, then  that is their decision and will alter the site tremendously.

Speaking as one outsider, I really don't mind if UCCanada folk choose to discuss UCCanada stuff on the new Church Life forum should one exist. What I personally got tired from and frustrated with was the feeling that I was not welcome on the current Church Life due to the fact that I'm in a fellowship outside the UCCanada. My hope is that the new Church Life forum, whatever it may be called, will be open and welcoming of contributions from all WC2 members - whether they be UCCanada folk or not.

Just like in life, there are times when family discussions are open for all participants and other times when it is important to let the family process. Outsiders may be welcome who can keep the conversation moving or provide another view...The importance is for all to know what kind of conversation is occurring.  

Jae, your reputation on those threads and the frustration you caused in some of them is known by many.  I get your desire to participate.  I also recognize the anger and frustration you have caused as people tried to discuss specifc items to the united church of canada.

Our hope is to build a place where everyone can have their needs met and engage in communication that is good and whole

Excellent. Wouldn't want to be a part of anything less.

*snip*

Pinga's answer is better. I was a grumpy ape and shouldn't have been.

Mendalla

You made some valid points Mendalla.

All I said, though, was that I was tired and frustrated. I didn't mean to affix blame for those feelings to anyone else. I know I could certainly have posted better over the years. I myself grimace when I read some of the stuff that I wrote in the past on various wondercafe discussion boards. At times I meant well and just expressed my true feelings inappropriately. At other times I was just trolling. (I'd like to think that a few times I did post well.) 

Rich blessings.

In an open forum, anything can be posted and discussed, including the United Church.

The success of any thread is in the response. If people want to discuss the posted topic, then they'll respond.

Thank you for the conversation.Carry on.

To be very fair and acurate, Wondercafe is part of UCCan, was part of a directed initiative funded by a bequest.  It is funded and operated bu UCCan.  That it is ending soon is also a UCCan decision.

To say "There was never anything that made it UCC." is, at the very least, laughable.  UCC is all over this site - omnipresent, in the sense that UCCan created this site, funded it and monitors it.  What more is required to be present?

The Untied church of canada does not monitor the site.  The participants monitor, alert and then the admins who represent the UCC take action.

The UCC brand may be present on the stie; however, the UCC as an organization rarely posts on the site.

Most participants particpate with each other, not with any formal united church of canada presence.

so, though the united church of canada stood up the building, and spent some time ensuring the roof wasn't leaking, put some art up on the walls, etc....drew people in, their actual engagement in the posts and threads are not done by paid staff other than rare exceptions.  

Classic type of mine:  Untied should be United.

Pinga,

While it is true enough that the UCCan as an organization rarely posts on the site, Wondercafe has a strong United Church presence. Just look at the sidebars - - we advertise the Observer and Mandate magazines, provide a link to our Moderator's blog and offer a Church Search function. 

True enough most participants interact with each other rather than with any formal UCCan designates. As it happens, though, United Church members, adherents, former members and clergypeople are well-represented on our membership roster. Interestingly enough, Morgan Hunter (U of O) indentified in her paper that the United Church presence became stronger over time on this site. 

I believe that WC2 will be a different experience. Not saying better or worse, just different. Kind of a Wondercafe: The Next Generation. 

Pardox3, I do not presume that we won't have United Church banner ads, or inclusions, 

I also anticipate that most individuals that post will continue to be United Church of Canada given the current population.

It appears to me that the planning team wants to move further in the direction of interfaith dialogue. A different planning team might have come up with a more United Church grassroots orientation. 

Again, I am not saying one approach would be better than the other. At the end of the day, it might not even matter. Much will depend on who moves over to WC2 and who is attracted to it as a new initiative. 

Note: I understand fear and doubt;.  People will have it, it is common for any change.

Not sure why you are commenting on fear and doubt in the context of this thread, Pinga. 

Paradox, we are going through a significant period of change.  There is fear, uncertainity and doubt in differeing degrees on threads.  It is normal. 

Where I see it here is the fear that it will be different, that the united church of canada presence that we currently feel and the ethos of the site will be gone.

There is uncertainty...

Are you a follower at all of William Bridges and his Change Management theories?  

Pinga, 

Could you perhaps speak to your own fear, uncertainty and doubt? Tell us how you can relate to the Change Management theory on a personal level?

Absolutely, i was pondering what examples that i could give. Will document when i get home.

I don't think making it "personal" serves a purpose on this thread.  I think we should be appreciating the efforts of pinga, chansen and mendalla to set up a new discussion forum and to spend time doing so.  No one else stepped forward to offer that kind of commitment.

Will it be identical to Wondercafe, obviously not.   Perhaps we need to have more faith in seeing the site build over time.  I expect there were many growing pains with the original, just as there will be here.

Ouch, Gecko46. Not sure why you think their efforts are unappreciated. 

As far as getting "personal" goes, Pinga observed that there is fear, doubt and uncertainty being expressed on various threads. Isn't it fair to ask if she can speak to her own experience of these things? 

I think she was okay with the question. 

My apologies, paradox3, but I thought pinga had explained herself above.

In reading this thread, a have a sense of people's fears directed at our new forum leaders in such a way that they are having to defend their decisions and words....but maybe I'm wrong.  I hope so.  Best bite my tongue or words, in case I inadvertently hurt someone...

This post is from the other thread, it kind of expresses similar concerns that I feel, CH. The reference to Jae was that although I don't think it needs to be named as a Christian site, it won't be, I like the that the site is implicitly multi faith and Christ centred now, and of course that has been because of UCCan's start-up and influence. I don't think we can deny that. It will be different and we just have to be aware of that. I hope our ministers stay on. I also would be interested in hearing from clerics of other faiths. But, is the centre falling out- is just my own worry. Maybe it needn't be a worry.

I trust that the intention of the planning team consists in finding a way forward by consulting with the Cafe community at large and negotiating with those responsible for the WonderCafe as it transitions from UCC responsibility to "our" responsibility.

I hope we will not be diverted by quibbles of emphasis. There is no reason to expect our process to radically change when WonderCafe2 opens for conversation.

We have been meeting as persons representing personal perspectives and commitments. At our best, we have avoided making priority claims, suggesting that a particular point of view trumps all other points of view.

I hope we will remember that the United Church has stepped away from the conversation. That is the event which precipitated the conversation now in view. Though I am a member of the United Church, I see no advantage to our hope in resorting to this brand or the Christian brand in general.

We have opportunity to make visible something new, not only inclusive of difference but founded on the premise that our gathering for conversation is made rich by that difference.

I am here as a person seeking engagement with persons in the hope of transformation, not as a member of any group or institution.

George

The old site is shutting down.

There was a desire expressed to continue in community by various voices, and so a few stepped forward to help that happen.

Here is a link for a really quick snapshot of some of Bridges work.  http://www.mindtools.com/pages/article/bridges-transition-model.htm

I have used theories and studied it as part of application change, similair to what is going on, for the last 15 years or so, as often I have been part of taking away one software and replacing it with another. Sometimes, it has been about people losing jobs, etc.  I find the quotes and theories helpful in understanding and appreciating why people can be really grumpy, and as Carolla shared in a different situation to remember to "lean into love".

So, let me talk about my process regarding the change this community is going through.

The first change was the site was shutting down.  There was no option. It was poorly communicated in my opinion.  I felt anger, frustration, sadness.  

It was important to communicate, and I saw some wonderful leadership as people such as Crazyheart asked people to share stories, others did as well. We saw some wonderful skills and help occuring.

As part of that, we started to envision a new future...and how it could look.  Not everyone was or is on the same page , nor would we expect people to be.  People will ahve differing opinions.

In my life and work, I am generally an early adapter. I know that I vent frustration, then get on board and roll up sleeves. It is what I do.  So, for me, you saw me moving into that direction -- do we wish to stay together, and responding to the grief to say, should we move forward.  I am sure if you looked at some of my posts regarding the communication from the church, you would see that frustration.  I know that Aaron has felt it as we attempted to get data and communicate.

Does that help? If so, I can share more Paradox of where I am currently?

I will give one short example of my processing regarding a fear in the change.

Fear:  How on earth are we going to handle the folks who chronically attacked this site and were a burden to the community.  Those folks are  well blocked at this site by admins but, is constantly trying to get to other sites and will wear down the moderators really quickly if we don't have skills.

Unknown: what will the new app look like for technically blocking.

So, my processing is to ensure what ever software we go to has great blocking and communication with Mendalla and Chansen on the requirement.  Ensuring the need is accurate via a conversation with current admins on wondercafe.   I also am working to ensure we have a strong relationship  with a goal to be able to transition that knowledge into the app, including chronic IP addresses.

Thank you Pinga

no, thank-you Crazyheart.

Your bringing this query and question to this thread is important.  It is a concern in the community and you named it publicly wiht a place for peopel to dialogue.

You are good at that....not shuttling things under the carpet.  Bringing them out for dialogue. It is a gift honed from many years of church work with adult and children in community. It is something that we would be at a loss without.

I started to write a long comment on the others who have helped by exploring and taking time to communicate when I just rush past with a "yeah, that"

We are successful when we compliment each other.

 There is a reason that Mendalla is posting most of our posts re the site todate.  He has a way with words, he is funny and clever.  He is a man of deep faith as well and a much better Christian than I likely will ever be...regardless if he uses the description for himself or not.  CHansen is good at design and engineering and fairness and lots of other skills.  

People are offering skills. Alex sure did with picking up the site for us.  Alex has also offered to help when we get into beta with testing, and accessability testing.  He is a good man of faith.

People offered names and thoughts on those names.

Some offer wordsmithing on the posts, making me laugh , Arm pointed out something which someone we had missed,  KaytheCurler has as well, and many others.

we are a community full of talents.

Hoping to make pinga's link about change  live: fingers crossed

http://www.mindtools.com/pages/article/bridges-transition-model.htm

Pinga, 

Thanks for expanding upon your earlier comments. It's good to understand where you are coming from. 

Been thinking on this. Yes, there is uncertainty. What is WC going to look like for its last few months? Will some posters leave? Will some former members decide to return at this time? Will the volume of posts continue to decrease? What kind of threads will there be at the very end? Will the transition over to WC2 pretty much be done by the end of June?

No one can know the answers to these things. It will be a process - - the process has already begun but there is still a long way to go. 

You also mentioned "fear that it will be different". I don't think this is correctly called fear. I think it is reality. WC2 will be different. It will not be WC as we know it. Not saying it will be better or worse, just saying it will be different. 

Fear of the unknown might be a more accurate way to express what is going on.  There are bound to be many questions in everyone's mind about WC2.  We will not have a lot of the answers until we get there. 

The United Church presence will also be different. Some may be fearing this reality and others may be excited about it. WC2 will be running its own show. There will be no institutional UCCan presence and we have yet to see how many of our current UCCan members and clergy will move to WC2. 

As for the ethos on the site, I can't imagine it will change very much. All of Mendalla's threads are giving this due diligence. But I guess you are right, nothing is certain in times of change.

Thanks for all of your efforts, Pinga, Chansen and Mendalla. You are doing everything you can to manage the transition well. The rest will depend on how the community on WC2 shapes up.  

Thanks to Crazyheart for starting this thread. It is good to be able to share some of these thoughts. 

Freudian slip, eh?

Hah, probably.  Though, my left hand often gets ahead of the right.  That may say something as well.

One of the elements of change management is around "knowing".  It is hard to live in a time where there isn't answers.

It is common in projects to hear "they" aren't telling us, or "they" aren't listening or "they " aren't ....     The "they" can be the leadershp, the implementation team, the subject matter experts.

If you are in the "they", they are busy figuring out stuff.  I have rarely seen secrets intentionally kept in a project.  More often it is that the project team is busy doing, working with folks who can give information.   Responding to queries.

It is also really easy for a project team to be pulled off their game by a few people who are harping at them.

Direct questions such as this thread by CrazyHeart, brought up in the right area, not to distract, but to allow for good conversation are a solution to the items.  

I have folks like CrazyHeart in my life at work, who bring up questions that are rumbling under the surface in appropriate avenues.  I am one of those people to other projects.  They allow projects to be successful.

Crazyheart, in reaching out to folks who are no longer here, one of the things they pointed out was that they were tired. Tired of dealing with the same behaviour from some folks. Tired of trying to have conversations which were side-tracked with the same old, same old.

I share that, as for me, the vibe of it being a united church of canada site has been hurting for a while with some of the chronic issues we have experienced in keeping threads on track.

It is when the dogs yapping at your heels get so bad you quit running down a trail....even if it was kinda beautiful.

i have a sense that there are those who clamor for this dialogue.

Some have indicated the anononymity being an issue.

I think there are software solutions and process solutions to the issue, but, part of it is our own willingness to have those dialogues and make the space good.

when asked about my fears, it is if we structure this one wrong, it will not be the wondercafe that we love and dream, but the wondercafe that we despise....

my greatest fear is that the united church of canada folks do not come over.

Ah, Pinga. Such a poignant comment. 

Thank you for sharing your fear so honestly. 

Sure, if the average united church of canada person doesn't come over, then we risk the possibility of it being filled with folks at the extreme.  We know the annoyance of a mosquito or a bee buzzing, picture if that is all we have left.... that would kinda suck. It could result in a requirement to have heavier moderation, it would burn out folks.

So the fear isn't about people choosing not to come.  It is about what happens if we do not have a solid base of the strong posters and presence that are here now solely because it isn't paid for by a  united church of canada program.

It is partially why i suggested having it be affiliated as a congregation or mission at one point, but due to the overhead, I dropped it from my suggestions

These are not easy times, Pinga. 

Admiring your ability to stay with all the discussion . . . P3

Are you suggesting here that you believe in a dichotomy of "average united church of canada" folk on one hand, and risky mosquitoish "folks at the extreme" on the other?

I am suggesting that if the average united church of canada poster does not come over the mix will drastically change.

The folks that will be left will be challenged to deal with the mosquitos and bees.

LOL @pinga

You are making me laugh so hard.....tears....I've been called many things in my lifetime but never a "mosquito"......or "a bee"........meaning I'm not UC.

Oh wait...I'm reading it all wrong. You mean I'll have to deal with the mosquitos and bees...?...now I'm laughing harder than ever. I'll have to take some courses. 

Have no fear. If the UC people don't show up I'll go to the UC church so that  I may represent the UC. When I come to the WC2  I'll bring my fly swatter and a spray can of lysol.

Seriously I share your concern. I also want the UC people  here. I'm quite positive and optimistic they will come. Who could resist? I even learned a new word here today.... "mosquitoish". It sounds like a frightened whoever. The bees are buzzin'.....I'm running again..........................................................>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

(Excuse me. I'm not drinking booze  since 2010. I think I may have a sugar high today.)

Correct, you will have less to help you to deal with the mosquitoes and bees.

We'll need the help of the good United Church folk then for sure. That, and big cans of Deep Woods Off.

Jae

I'm sitting here laughing again and I'm thinking the WC has driven us all stark ravin' crazy and that's why we can't get along. Is there a road back to the place called  "Sanity"  or is it too late?  I have no Deep Woods Off...will I be eaten alive?

Oops...we're off topic again.

Pinga, that's why I think that we have to have marketing that encourages UC people to come - if they don't come ,I fear for the cafe. But we don't have the money that WC had for marketing. -no bobbleheads- no extreme ads. So where do we go?

We go forward one step at a time, crossing bridges when we get to them. That's how we got here from where we were.
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George
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