Good topic. I think we listen and then we can respectfully disagree and try to get the point across that "yes" this may be what you believe but here is why I believe this. It is my personal belief.

Another good thing about this forum is that there is no hand shaking and passing the peace and so we are not passing H1N1 to everyone.

LB, for me, it includes modelling the behaviour we expect others to have, as well as calling the old-timers when we lose our tolerance of newbies.

Of course, there is a problem when a sockpuppet shows up, that is clearly a sockpuppet to the oldtimers, but, not to someone new.  (had that happen recently)

What happens, though, for those who are seeing these new posters as an attack on their essence...

I think the question has to be asked if that is really the new poster's intent.  Does the poster understand the impact of their words on another person?  Because in all honesty I have seen some who genuinely do not recognize this and were then pushed into a corner with the result the dialogue turned even nastier.

As well, there needs to be an acknowledgement when the person steps back.  In the most recent debacle this occurred and instead of letting the poster go, leaving the issue, others continued to attack.  The only result, in my so humble opinion, was to give a dead horse a second wind so it could be beaten again.

There is no shame in walking away when a debate turns sour.  There is no benefit to creating a hostile conversation to make a point - particularly if that point includes a request for tolerance from someone else.

If the original poster continues, after the initial asking for clarification, then each of us will have to decide what course to take.  There are definitely people in this group better equipped than others to deal with that task - and I suspect most of us know who they are - regardless it is ultimately up to each individuals comfort level on how to proceed or where to draw the line.

LB

Don't take the wrong side of an argument just because your opponent has taken the right side.     Baltasar Gracian quotes (1601-1658)

 I ahve a real life example of the same thing happening in my church.

I meet someone who was unwlecomed in the religion he grew up in. He had had an ugly convertation with a Priest because he was HIV postive and the Priest told him he needed to repent from his lifestyle to be able to be part of their church..

He also had a First Nation back ground. He was brought up RC.

I thought that with him being gay, and as well having an interest in First Nation spirituality and some new age stuff that he would like my church First United which is an Affirming church.

After church I asked him how he liked it. He told me that it could not be a church for him because they had women leading the service.  I was immediately taken back and shocked because of all the things I expected to hear that was one in which I did expect. In particular it is always more shocking to me to hear sexist remarks coming from gay men.

I did not say anything, but I am afraid my body language spoke what I was thinking.

Maybe if I was more friendly and engaging, the guy might have come back and come to appreciate what women leaders have to offer the church in  time. 

Maybe what he was saying was that it would take him time to understand how women could lead a church service.

Was I not doing the same thing that the priest in his church did. But instead of judging him for being HIV+ and gay, I was judging him for being sexist.

I was not  considering the historical realities of First Nations people, and what damage had been done to him because residential schools, which so damaged his grandmother that his mother was taken away from his grandmother.

This inturned damaged his mother because she was brought up in a white home, who never considered her to be really part of the family.  This in turn made it difficult for her to be a mother.  So who was I to judge his sexism, just as what the priest had done for judging  him for being HIV positive and gay.

For me, this is a Hallmark of WC. It isn't a place to find Facts, but a place to engage in evolving dialogue.

It is like the difference between going to a Library to Find out Aboot Something and going to Wikipedia. The Library is far more "interactive".

Part of the communication process is self-knowledge. It would be very easy for me to blame a book I find in the library for my issues than it is to dig into my own and be able to look them straight in the eye.

And I see, constantly here, how roughly the same factual information is accepted or not accepted depending on how the information is shown, whom it comes from, and whom sees it.

I know how very powerful communication is. For a long time, my communication style here was mainly in 'story' style. Then, I tried getting down into the nitty-gritty of trying for a conversation, a la standard Forum style. And I found that my feelings and thoughts were quite different. Just because of me adopting a different communication style.

LB, I think you once wrote "Flaunt what you got", which I think is important as well. Some of us WCers have the Greeter Bloodline strong in them.

A trick you all might try out (if you haven't tried it out already) is to, for a period of time, say, a week on WC, to, when writing, write, but not with a purpose in mind. In other words, try not to NEED your words to mean something or that your virtual reader NEEDS to understand...but just write what you are going to write anyway...because you are writing it. If that makes any sense at all :3

Just a Self-writing poem,

Inannawhimsey

Very nicely said, both Alex and Inannawhimsey.

Alex, you highlight the dangers of first impressions.  This often happens in the "real" world.  I remember a couple who when they first came to the restaurant they struck me as cold and rather demanding.  Frankly we never thought we'd see them again but they came back the next week and the week after and soon became regulars.  They also turned out to be wonderful people and became a joy to know - he was a world renown musician, she a textile artist.  They were just slow to warm up with strangers.

And Innawhimsey, we all wear masks don't we, even to ourselves.

LB

The Internet is a giant international network of intelligent, informed computer enthusiasts, by which I mean, "people without lives." We don't care. We have each other.     Dave Barry
 

Pinga, as this thread is about communication, what's a "sockpuppet?"

Not being a Canadian, I often seek clarification.(see above).

One of the best features of wondercafe is the opportunity to "meet" others that you would have little contact with in "real" life. If used wisely, this gives us the opportunity to converse and learn from all walks of life.

Why abuse such a privilege by being openly hostile and sending the hobbits scurrying back into their hobbit holes? If you are convinced your point of view is correct, do you seriously think a hostile approach will convince the other??

To quote my Nana once again, "you catch more flies with honey than vinegar." 

A sockpuppet is a false alias, used by someone already on the board.

Example

a)  I wish to post something very personal that I don't want folks to know is about me (or someone close to me), or maybe about my church -- I create a sockpuppet and post the comment

b) I have something to say, but don't want to be accountable to it...maybe I totally dislike something that you said..and am in a foul mood but don't wish you to know it is me  -- I create a sockpuppet and post my vicious attack on you

c) maybe i am a goof and wan to have two sides to an argument -- I create a sockpuppet, and then go back and forth between myself and my sockpuppet arguing

d) maybe I feel no one is paying attention to me -- I create a sockpuppet and have it say what brilliant posts I have made.

Pinga,

Gottcha!

What an innocent little colonial I am -  I had no idea that such things existed.

(I now hope I get asked this on a trivia night). 

...or maybe everyone got really tired of the original poster's usual schtick, but they are really hungry for attention, so they create a sockpuppet (or twelve) to keep the focus on them. 

have to be smarter on the puter than you and me, Pilgrims Progress. tee hee

D never occured to me. What a brilliant idea.

As a note, I don't recollect ever creating a sock puppet. I have considered them when I have wished to post something which I did not wish anyone to know it was me, for fear of it reflecting badly on someone else.  (Example: situation which involves myself & others.)  I have chosen not to and instead referred to wonderfriends for advice / venting.  Why? I don't think I could disguise my posts...people would know it was me pretty quickly.

To create a sockpuppet one would have to have multiple email accounts, but many of us do anyhow, or use a gmail throwaway account.  (those are generally seen through fairly quickly)

Alex: yup, category d exists

another one:  e)  to just have fun.  I think of Alucard who was just a blast to have around..and would cut me up.

"Well!" I said, thrusting out my impressive chest with indignation, "at least I know how to use a smiley face." Tee hee?? Now who's the luddite? 

Hi LBmuskoka,

I wonder if the greeting indicates hospitality fatigue?

It is hard to relax at the party if you are constantly running to the door.

Conversely.  If the guests see that answering the door is becoming an inconvenience it may not be long before the mood at the party turns and folk start to depart at rates higher than the arrivals.

If each thread and each idea is considered explosive, some have shorter fuses than others and we have been anxiously wondering when that fuse is going to ignite the whole thing.

So some we yell "hot potato" at and hope it gets tossed out the window before it blows.  Which probably confuses the newcomer who lifts it up and says, "look what I found, isn't it interesting?"

I am aware that not every newcomer who lifts up such threads is a) new and b) innocent of intent.  I think those individuals show their hands rather quickly.

I think that there is another phenomenon called linear time that comes into play.  Those who have been here longer experience time in WonderCafe differently than do newbies.  It is sort of like Christmas morning.

When you are young every present is pretty nifty and exciting and you want to play with it as much as possible.  When you get older every present starts to become socks and underwear and the anticipation dies.

The young ones are hyped up by all the cool stuff and that is wonderful for them.

For those who are staring at nothing but socks and underwear the only wonderment is, "Who in their right mind is interested in this stuff?"

Remember when we started and every forum had one page and maybe five or six threads?  You could breeze through WonderCafe in 5 minutes or less.  Now it is like the Great Canadian Superstore, takes forever to get through and the self-checkout line is about 80 people deep when you finally get there.

So, not only are the fuses on threads getting short, the fuses on posters are also running out.

There is only so much crap anyone of us can take (crap, of course, is a personal definition of stuff that anyone just doesn't like) and what we find to be crap is often somebody else's gold.

Hospitality is more about the other than it is the self and if running to the door every five minutes is wearing you down find somebody else to look after the door for you.

Grace and peace to you.

John

RevJohn, thank you for raising the hospitality issue.  For I have been thinking of this for quite some time now.

Hospitality is a two way street.  There is a responsibility on the host to welcome their guests, there is an equal responsibility on the guest to respect the host.

If I go into some one's home and do not like their wallpaper, it is not my place to say "Holy Flocking, did you buy that at the dollar store?"  One does not virulently attack the host's core choices.  We may perhaps have a spirited discussion about the pros and cons of stripes versus floral prints but it should not devolve to the point where one says "your choice of stripes is a horror".

Personally I am comfortable at stating, categorically, that the hosts of this site have lived up to their responsibilities as hosts.  I can not say the same for every guest that has crossed the threshold.

LB

The good guest is almost invisible, enjoying him or herself, communing with fellow guests, and, most of all, enjoying the generous hospitality of the hosts.     Emily Post

Hi LBmuskoka,

Too true.  So true, in fact, that it is taken for granted and forgotten more than remembered.

True it is not your place to say that.  What is your place to respond to such?

Fair enough.

I think though that there might be some confusion as to who fulfills each role?

Who are the hosts of WonderCafe?  Is it the members of the United Church, their clergy, long-time members of the Admin of the site?

I would argue that the proper hosts are the Admin of the site and as such I would say that their visibility is practically nil.  We may hear from them if it is absolutely necessary.  If it isn't we don't.

Case in point.  A thread is flagged as offensive what is the mechanism of response?  If the thread is removed who is notified?  When threads are closed who is notified?  When threads are flagged as offensive and no apparent action is taken how does the one doing the flagging undestand the host to be fulfilling their obligation?

If the host is invisible to the guests remember that they are, in fact guests?

Do some guests assume the host role?  How is that assumption of role and authority/priviledge recieved by the other guests?

Obviously, one aspect of hospitality incumbent to the guest is to treat all other guests with the same respect and honour that one would treat the host.  For that to work I think we need to see the host more often to know how to respond to them and what to expect from them.

Otherwise we appear to be at a banquet where there are no present hosts, just present guests.

Grace and peace to you.

John

LB

The good guest is almost invisible, enjoying him or herself, communing with fellow guests, and, most of all, enjoying the generous hospitality of the hosts.     Emily Post

[/quote]

As a host or as another guest?

It says at the bottom of the screen who the host is - the United Church of Canada.

Admin - and this is not to diminish their role in anyway - are the staff, they are the chefs and servers at the party.  The rest of us are invited guests - some received personal invitations to attend, some were brought by invitees and some heard the music and invited themselves.

And I humbly argue otherwise.  Admin's role is to ensure the flow and occasionally remove the garbage.  As with any good staff they function behind the scenes.

This is a system problem and one that I would suspect highlights the host's lack of awareness of how rude some of their guests would be.  The "flag" system has been on this site for a very short time - when did the big changeover occur?  Prior to that individual posters could delete their posts if, in hindsight, they realized they had gone overboard - now that option has been removed and placed in the hands of another.   Personally I don't think it is an effective system but then there are very few systems I believe are effective when the human component plays such a significant role.

However, no matter what system is in place it does not abdicate the responsibility of the guest to conduct themselves in the manner that the host has outlined as acceptable - see Code of Conduct.  Further I would argue that when one goes to some one's house the host does not have to hand out a "Code of Conduct" to each guest.  From childhood the majority of the population has learned a modicum of courtesy and knows how to behave when out in public.

I would go one step further and say that every time we, that is the societal we, try and come up with a "system" to control human behaviour the result is that humans have yet another excuse for behaving badly.  "Oh look no one flagged that as offensive ergo I can continue insulting everyone".

But is the host invisible?   And even if the host is out of the room does that grant one permission to spit in the soup bowl?

In any given social setting there will be those who are more outgoing and authoritative.  The reception will be based on whether there is a sufficient relationship with the host.  In a large gathering, say a fund raising gala, the event may be hosted by an individual who represents the entity they are raising funds for, in such a setting the hosts may indeed play a very distant role and the authority granted to others.  Again, the distance does not give tacit approval for guests to be disrespectful.

I think the host is the elephant in the room.  It would take very little effort to find out the principles that our host holds dear.  And as you say it is incumbent on the guests present to treat each other with civility and respect.  It really doesn't matter if after sending out the invite the hosts goes and has a nap - which by the way I have done and when I did so I expected my guests to enjoy themselves and not break the furniture, they did not disappoint me.

LB

In hospitality, the chief thing is the good will.     Greek Proverb

One minor change that might help - what if clicking the "flag" option actually did flag a post in a way that other users could see?

revmatt, that is a good thought.

f) to try to sneak around a ban (once discovered, the mods can block the originating IP if it is static).

Sockpuppets are verboten on my other board due to the havoc they wreak at times. That said, sometimes those who fall into your type a) are legit and should be tolerated IMHO. Of course, those are exactly the ones who are probably not going to be recognized as sock puppets since they are not focussed on either troublemaking or attention-getting.

Mendalla

On the title question: we need to greet each newcomer, whether they have something new to add or are just rehashing old battles, with open arms. That's the baseline. If they later turn out to be a sockpuppet or troll, we deal with it then, but jumping on a newcomer right away because you think they are a sock or troll (unless it is extremely blatant) is just rude.

If a newcomer is rehashing old battles, instead of putting them down or chasing them off, point them at those threads so they can see what's happened. If they have new thoughts on the subject, then they can necro that thread instead of starting all over again from zero.

If they are stepping over a line, someone needs to Wondermail them and let them know that rather than attacking them publicly.

Hmm. Maybe we don't need mods so much as hosts. Instead of acting as enforcers to banhammer the rules into people, hosts would Wondermail greetings to newcomers, help them navigate the more treacherous waters, and generally ensure that they are welcome and comfortable here. And, yes, they could call in air strikes er, mods/admins if they have reason to believe the newcomer is a sock, troll, or other attempt to circumvent the community's rules and norms.

A thread where newcomers can intro and talk about themselves could help, too. Not sure if it's possible to "sticky" a thread in this BB, but if it is, we could create the thread now in Social and sticky it (sticky in vBulletin-based boards = thread is always at the top of the forum and flagged as being "sticky")

Mendalla

Hi LBmuskoka,

That's the conundrum isn't it?  Are you the host or another guest?

That being the case only the Executive Secretary of General Council is incumbent to the role of host and, as such, is free to invite others to take on that role.  I suspect that Keith Howard has such an invite.  What about you or me?

Of course, if you read carefully the claim is that WonderCafe has been brought to all by "the people of The United Church of Canada."  Does that automatically force all people of The United Church of Canada into a hosting role?

Fair enough.  Less chefs than servers I think.  It appears that WonderCafe is more potluck than catered dinner.

Fair enough.  Where is the host then?

Indeed they do and I submit that for the most part they do function very well behind the scenes.  So perhaps the major problem is simple optics.

If garbage is cleared before I even notice it I will never notice it.

If garbage piles and I ask for it to be removed and I don't see that happen it looks like the job is not being done and my concern is unimportant.  If I'm being a bit of a lout and put my feet up on the coffee table (and such behaviour is not welcome) am I better served by a request to move my feet or having them swatted?

Who should be doing the swatting (if it need come to that)?

Is that something the chefs and servers should do?  Other guests?  The host?

I agree.  Which is why having the institution as host (ie., The United Church of Canada) sucks.  Institutions are like the Titanic.  Great engines, poor maneuverability and even poorer stopping power.  Just ask any iceberg.

I think that you are mistaken.  Individuals still have the right to remove the content of their post leaving a blank space.  The ability to delete posts wholesale was also abused as individuals would post, be quoted, delete selected material and then claim never to have said it.

What has been taken away was the ability to delete entire threads that users initiated.  That option was also abused and I was glad that it was taken away.

Total Depravity isn't a very cheerful doctrinal position.  Still, evidence seems to suggest that it is more on the mark than it is off.

Too true.  Again when the host isn't present to remind things will devolve.

Ahhhhhh but we are not actually out in public are we?  We are "virtually" in public but the actuality is that we are more likely to be sitting on our own duffs, in our own chairs, in our own spaces and living life by our own rules.

This could be the first and only post ever composed and posted entirely in the nude.

Or,

It could be one of several.

Or,

It might not be any of the above.

My house, my rules.

There are codes of conduct none of which say I cannot correspond here in the buff, in a tutu or even as the spokesperson for my neighbour's dog sam.

There is that.

I believe that every time we come up with something "foolproof" nature just whips out a better "fool."

Visibility speaks to that which is seen.  It is purely optics minded.  That we even ask the question who is host indicates that one is hard to see.

The absence of a visible host does not give permission for oafishness still, when the cats away the mice will play.

That requires some visibility unless we are simply going to assume there is sufficient relationship with the host.

Agreed.  At a black-tie affair there is a basic understanding.  In my basement there is another.  And yet another for those who still post from their mother's basement and attend trek conventions.

There are several elephants in the room depending upon who is looking into the room and I suspect that is part of the problem.  Unless one of the Elephants is going to enforce the heirarchical order all Elephants are then rogue and that probably explains the carnage.

Were those the invited guests or the rabble taken from the highways and biways?

As host you could vouch for all of your guests.  Can the host here vouch for all of us?

Grace and peace to you.

John

Hi RevMatt,

If nothing else it would provide an optic which, in itself, might function as corrective.

Grace and peace to you.

John

Personally I consider myself a guest and try to conduct myself accordingly. In that position I would refrain from demanding that another guest leave the party, although I would be inclined to point out that they are in another’s house and respect should be shown.

I consider us both as guests – however, because of your familiarity with the UCC I acknowledge your greater understanding of the host. This does not infer that you have any authority over me but your familiarity places you in a better position to provide a credible explanation for the host’s love of flowered wallpaper.
 

It does not force anyone into a role. The statement does clearly outline who has provided the party.

I shall try to make a departure from my usual ambiguous style. The site clearly claims it has been brought to us from the United Church of Canada, members of that organization were invited to participate and yes, it extended an open invitation to all others. That was a generous invitation, it did not need to be offered for the site to exist, and I propose that that generosity should not be abused.

Unwarranted attacks on the integrity of either the organization, the people that make up that organization or the invited guests, are an abuse of both the generosity and hospitality of the site. It is a clear violation of the rules that the host has provided for participation.

I would be comfortable in stating that the major problem is optics. As my mama says, it always comes down to whose ox is being gored.

You probably will not notice the garbage, and as those living the Toronto garbage strike can attest, this is the way most people like it. However, maybe it is not such a bad thing when the garbage piles up and the stink can be smelled as it is a concrete reminder of how much garbage one produces.

I suggest that instead of relying on someone else to pick up our own garbage, responsibility is taken for what is produced in the first place.

I have never found swatting at flies all that useful sometimes it just brings on more flies; however if a fly bites me then I am inclined to strike it not shoo it away for another chance to take a chunk of my skin. Personally I do not like it when another person, in a generous attempt to protect me from the fly, slaps me across the head in the process.

Or a more concise answer to your question could be that swatting can be done by everyone involved but I think it should be confined to the people most directly affected - that answer is shorter but I think lacks the imagery of the former.

Hmm, I wouldn’t go that far. I think institutions are as vulnerable as the people that make them. The downfall of the Titanic was that everyone believed it was unsinkable and did not take the necessary precautions to prevent further tragedy.

My apologies, I was not very clear. I meant that the flag system is a recent system change that frankly was implemented without explanation and therefore left open for misunderstanding. People are still trying to figure it out.

The current way of deleting a post is no different from the former except on two fronts:  One, it requires more effort than simply hitting delete thus making those disinclined to make an effort less likely to self correct.. Two, we now have a blank or edited post that I see fraught with the same problems and possibly open to even new abuses.

All systems can be abused if the desire to do so is present.

I confess that I am more surprised at my fellow human’s kindness than cruelty; it is part and parcel of my pessimistic optimism. I expect the worst but hope for the best.

I’m sorry RevJohn but I just don’t buy that argument and never have. There are humans at the other end of the signal stream just because one does not see them does not make them vanish. Each and everyone us knows that when we hit save another living person will see our words and it is our responsibility to know what effect those words will have on another.

Btw, I'm usually posting in my bathrobe – who wouldn’t at 5 am – it does not matter what you, the reader, can not see, what does matter is what I present to you. One can pick their nose in the privacy of their own home but is it really an agreeable thing to do when others are present?

Smiles at RevJohn – one of my favourite sayings.

I may be wandering off on yet another tangent – my mind does have a tendency to do that – but is there not an irony here that many of us on this particular site claim to answer to an unseen host and yet use invisibility as an excuse for bad manners?

They were members of an organization that my partner belongs to and their spouses – many I had never met so, indeed, I could not vouch for them, some would be considered by others as rabble and one or two I do know and personally dislike very much. All were equally welcomed in my home, fed and watered and spoke to with respect and courtesy. The rules of hospitality, as written by the unseen host I answer to, observed.

LB

"Did I write that? Did I? I must be going mad..."
Agatha Christie, And Then There Were None