One reason Scouts opened up to girls was a drop in membership.  Also they are promoting Scouts as a family activitiy as the whole family can join.

Guiding has always been a female-only group and they prefer to keep it that way.  Even as they have lost some membership to Scouts.

Scouts do better things and there are far more girls who want to join Scouts than there are boys who want to join Guides. With that said there are a few events that both organizations do together. Also, there are insurance agreements between the two organizations; if the Guides want to rent our Scout camp, for instance, they are automatically covered by Scouts Cananda's insurance policy.


When we take the older Venturer Scouts on an over night camping trip we sometimes have to remind them that there will be no "purple" at the the camp. Purple is the colour you get when you mix pink and blue.

Dcn Jae, I'm with you on this one. It does seem like a double standard.

Hi Dcn.  Jae,

That depends upon the jurisdiction.  The Boy Scouts of America have a long history of desegretation along gender and racial lines.  Because of their social history most of their inclusion polity has come about as a result of change in the social fabric of the United States and some times that has been because of litigation.

Here in Canada the change has not been driven by exactly the same forces.  As others have pointed out some change has been number driven (declining membership).  Another factor is that gender integration has been working its way down through the various scouting ranks in Canada.

The first rank to integrate genderwise was the Rover Scouts (or simply Rovers).  Rovers has been co-ed since the 80's.  Rovers are typically 18-26 years of age.  The crew I belonged to (39th Brantford) was not co-ed simply because we had no applications, we were not opposed to being co-ed.  Other Rover crews in the area (there weren't many) were co-ed even though there was no gender parity.  One local crew of 30 had two women.

After Rovers the next rank to integrate was the Venturer Scouts (or simply Venturers) for individuals aged 14-17 the Souts and Cub Scouts and Beaver Scouts (or simply Cubs and Beavers).

The scouting program is quite different than is the guiding program.  At this point there does not seem to be as much interest in young men wanting to join the guiding movement (certainly nowhere near the interest that young women showed in wanting to join the scouting movement).

Until such time as that interest is generated the guiding movement will remain exclusively female.

A double standard would only exist if Guiding had insisted that scouting be open to both genders while insisting that it not have to be so open.  That simply hasn't been the case.

Grace and peace to you.

John

Okay, thanks all. If the Scouts themselves decided to change their inclusion policy, I would say that that's fair.

I had thought it might have been a matter of a court ruling that the Scouts must include girls while leaving the Guides as is.

The program of the Scout troop I was in was not very interesting to me.

While on paper we should have been involved in other activities, the sum of my experience is that we would get together once a week to play dodge ball in the gym of our church.

I would hope the Guides were doing more interesting things than that.

No camping? No trips? Just hanging out in the church. Sounds more like the church youth group than Scouts.

We had 2 or 3 campouts a year, plus regularly sent a group to the national Canadian Jamboree which takes place on a 3 (or is 4) year cycle. I went to CJ77 in PEI.

We had tours of local businesses. We did park cleanups and sold apples on Apple Day.

If your troop was that dull, that's a problem with your troop's leadership, not with Scouts.

Heck, our sponsoring church (which happened to be my family UCCan) even had a Scout service on the Sunday nearest Baden Powell's birthday to commemorate Scouting Week. The Scouts, Cubs, and Beavers (we didn't have Venturers or Rovers in those days) trooped in in uniform and some of the kids and leaders participated in the service. I think a local Guide group that wasn't church-based even joined us (but I'm a bit fuzzy on that memory so not 100% sure).

Mendalla

No one forced the Scouts to welcome girls.  It was a free choice,  partly, I think  to bring up their numbers.  The Guides used their free choice to remain a female only organisation.  This repeats what BethAnne said.

Neo - your staement that 'Scouts do better things' doesn't ring true to my personal experience, or that of the girls I know who are Guides today.  I learned a lot at Guides and had fun doing it.  We learned practical skills that I continue to use now and also challenged ourselves physically with hiking, camping, rock climbing, canoeing and sailing..  Young female friends are continuing the tradition of education, adventure and service.  The community I live in has no Scouts - a few Beavers is all.

All the leaders of both organisations are volunteers and it is their commitment to the youngsters, their enthusiasm for the programs that provides success.

Yes, but there was no religious education involved with it. All we did was play sports - mostly dodgeball with a bit of floor hockey. At the end of each meeting game we would each get a steaming cup of Ovaltine because, you know, that's the kind of drink you want after running around and getting all hot and sweaty in the gym.

Now that sounds better. I probably would have liked being in that troop.

Yep. One of the assistant leaders was my Dad, who was pushing to involve a wider variety of stuff, including teaching us camping and wilderness stuff to prepare us to go on a camping trip, but the main leader wouldn't go for it. Wolf Cubs had been much better. 

Our UCCanada sponsored Cubs, Scouts, Brownies, and Guides. There were no Beavers nor Sparx back then. Each year in church we had a special service where the groups would wear their uniforms, and a representative from each group would present their flag at the front of the church.

I understand the whole equal rights and no gender bias thing . . . but I do think it is too bad that groups/organizations feel that they have to be open to both sexes in some cases . . . scouting for example . . . or guiding . . . is it not a good thing, sometimes, for guys to be with just guys, and girls to be with just girls?

Do any of these groups lose members because of them opening up to the opposite sex?

I belong to a study group that is for ladies . . . now, let's just say we were required to open it up to men because men were protesting our exclusion . . . for me it would no longer hold the same draw and purpose for me as the group does now with being just women, and I probably wouldn't go anymore.

Wow, so many people belonged to scout groups that didn't do anything special.. what a shame. Our group does at least a a couple or a few cool things every year. The young cubs and scouts do at least one "Vancouver camp" a year where they stay in town, sometimes sleeping at the Planetarium or maybe the Aquarium, and then do day trips to Fort Langley or Grouse Mtn. One Saturday we had a few hours to kill so we drove to the Airport and experienced the planes coming into to land right over our heads. The kids loved it. They usually also go to a Muslim or Buddhist or maybe a Sikh Temple. Dinner is also usually of an ethnic selection, so the kids get to experience something new.


Last year with the Ventures we did a 5 day mountain bike trip along the old Kettle Valley Railway (converted for bikes now). This year they did a 5 day canoe trip on the Powell Lakes, a trip I really wanted to do but couldn't due to my health at the time.


We also do Night Hike at the UBC endowment lands once a year; skiing trips to Mount Seymour, winter camping at Whistler (there's a scout camp up there that we can use), winter camping on one of our local mountains where we have to snowshoe about 3 hours to the cabin.
I also manage our scout camp for the group, which is on a lake about an hour north of us. The group has several camps a year there.


We also do fund raising, today is Apple Day btw, but we also sell Christmas trees and manure. These may not be considered "fun things" but I've often said that digging manure is good for the soul.


This year, however, we have no beavers or cubs because we can't find the commitment for leaders. It's rather sad actually to see parents drop their kids off like we were some kind of babysitting service. Times are changing.


Regarding the girls in the scout program, they can be pretty outgoing and more times than not they end challenging the boys in the group. It's harder for a boy to complain while on a long hike when the girls are up front and pushing forward.

Why not? What would be so radically different that you would feel compelled to quit?

Neo - I remember doing those Night Hikes at UBC when I was in Pathfinders (Guiding branch older than Guides). They were an absolute blast!

The notion that Scouts do better things than Guides is really just a personal opinion and very much depends on the leadership of the unit. I grew up in Guiding and we used to do all kinds of awesome things. In addition to the fun things my group would do (like camping in all seasons, going on those night hikes, participating in special community events, etc.) I would also apply to go to bigger events. As a result I got to do things like ride on a school bus up and down the Alaska Highway, spend two weeks in Mexico (the first week was spent at Our Cabana - one of Guiding's World Centres - and the second at a Guiding hostel in Mexico City), and attend a major international camp (3000 kids) in Guelph, Ontario. 

Yea, maybe I'm being a little biased here Somegalfromcan. Guides are probably a lot like Scouts, if you have good leaders the you better things. It also depends on money too, if your group can subsides the cost of camps (via fund raising) then you're more likely to do better things. Though I do know that there's a big difference between how the organizations manage their money. Guides, for instance, can only sell cookies and can't raise money for their own group.


I did two Night Hikes and they both almost killed me {wink}. Walking in the dark forest from 8 pm do 6 am is a lot fun for kids, but pretty challenging for someone past 50!
And then driving home after that, while everyone in the car was sleeping I had the window open with the radio blasting. We raised that as a concern and now they rent a bus and share it with the Guides.

Neither of my kids had happy experiences as Cubs or Brownies/Guides. 
/
My son's leader got sick in the fall.  His wife took over the group - they learned some chants and routines, and sat around the scout hall for an evening.  And they were expected to wear short pants in the Canadian winter.  OK if your parents are driving you door to door, but not so much so if you have to walk a quarter mile.  

He begged permission to quit after the first year. No hikes, no camping, no outdoor or survival activities.
/
My daughter stuck it out for a few years - got enough badges to cover the sleeves of her brownie uniform. Liked the other girls. But had some unhappy experiences with the leaders - especially when I was seriously ill and couldn't do everything the other mothers did. She cried herself to sleep after meetings, and still feels bad about it 40 years later.
/
So I don't get upset about whether they allow boys in guides or girls in scouting. I wouldn't encourage my grandchildren to attend either group.
/
Both my kids have good memories of church groups. My daughter - CGIT. My son - a Baptist youth group.

Somegalfromcan, did you ever go to Rovent?

I went once - probably either 1994 or 1995.

I did Sparks, Brownies and Guides until middle school. Personally, I really enjoyed my troop. We went camping often, played games, and had tons of fun. I really only left when the leaders started treating some of the others unfairly. So I agree, it is definitely about the individual troop. If it weren't for my evening classes, I would probably volunteer myself.

Part of the factor is that both groups are changing. Girl Guides is adding more "exciting" stuff, and Scouts is working hard to be more interesting to prospective recruits. Though it should be noted that I looked on the Girl guides website, and while there is no explicit point that says "Boys are not allowed", I found a paragraph in their Inclusivity PDF. It reads;

"Code of Conduct: Girl Guides of Canada has entrenched its commitment to inclusivity through the revision of the Code of Conduct, which now clearly states that GGC “does not tolerate unlawful discrimination on the basis of race, national or ethnic origin, citizenship, Inclusivity in Canadian Guiding Girl Guides of Canada-Guides du Canada 3 colour, religion, sex, age, mental or physical disability, political beliefs, socio-economic status, health related status, sexual orientation, marital status or any other grounds enumerated in the human rights legislation of the jurisdiction in which the individuals are located.” 

Here is the link-

https://www.girlguides.ca/GGC/Parents/Who_We_Are/Inclusivity_and_Accessibility.aspx?&WebsiteKey=eaa3528e-7748-497f-96cd-a4c39f08750d&hkey=20111c3c-ef01-4942-a11e-1a1921356769

But I welcome anyone to tell me if they find anything more difinitive.

I did brownies but I had a hard time keeping up with the outdoor stuff. It wasn't designed for kids with disabilities- and although I always pushed myself, I remember coming home in tears after one long nature/ bird watching walk. We walked from the community hall to the nature walk/ park/ bog area and walked back to the hall, I couldn't move another step, I was being told to keep up, and I hated it- and my parents were disappointed with my fuss. We did the toadstool walk thing every week (we'd put props around the room and recite a poem or song I've forgotten), and I got some badges for hand sewing, knitting, baking. We sold cookies with the guides (I liked that- I was so proud to represent my favourite cookies. It was a milestone. Lol.). That's about all I remember. And the uniform. The brown dress, orange scarf, brown beret, and the little leather purse. I used to like to wear it to school on days when I had Brownies after school. I felt included. I think it was probably good. I learned and did some useful things after school. My mom was an assistant leader, an "owl" for awhile. It kept me from vegging in front of the TV, pushed me a little to try things, and had my mom involved more in my life/ learning. No camping trips though.

Hi Mendalla,

This reflects my experience with Scouting as well.  One of the regular camps was a week at Algonquin Park.  Others were fall and winter camps at a now defunct camp that was once owned by Scouts in Norfolk County.  Apart from that we would regularly do two weekends, one on the Bruce Trail and the other on the Grand River.  We also warehoused the apples for apple day and that involved many hours of polishing apples.

Too true.

Grace and peace to you.

John

Dcn. Jae - going to start a new topic, as I don't want this discussion of another group to sidetrack the wonderful discussion on scouting and guides.

There have been court cases about this issue, but perhaps they were all in the USA. One recent case involved a young biological boy who identified and dressed as a girl and applied to guides. As I recall they were mandated to admit the child.

I also have vague recollections of girls taking scouts to court.

I do think there is a place for same sex groups. I think boys in particular benefit from male bonding. It is a big draw for single sex schools or even single sex classes in coed schools.

However I understand how the child who identifies more with the activities of one group or another would want and should be able to join. But I do think it quite alters the experience, at least for certain ages

Ok Beloved, I'll look forward to your new thread.

No kidding! It was certainly lots of fun though! There are several joint Scouting/Guiding annual camps for the older kids in BC that I hear are lots of fun (Rovent was the only one I've been to, though).

There are, of course, a few minor alternatives to Guides and Scouts. AWANA is one that operates in many Baptist churches.

Bylaws define a member of Guiding as either a girl or an adult woman.

There is also the one other big secular one: Cadets Canada. My son is in the 27th London Air Cadet Squadron and it is proving to be a rather good program for him. Keeps him interested and busy a lot of the time (two nights a week and many weekends).

If you're a pacifist (as I am) you may question the connection to the military but there is no obligation for them to enlist when they reach the end of cadets and most do not. In fact, since we pay for much of the program with our taxes (DND funds much of it both through money and through letting them operate out of DND facilities) I figure it's a way to get some benefit out of the portion of my taxes that ends up in that department.

Mendalla

Those cadet organizations seem pretty interesting.  In our area they have active programmes - especially the Sea Scouts, since we are on the shore of Lake Ontario.

I didn't go to Brownies or Guides - participating in the equivalent UCC based girls'  programmes of Explorers and CGIT (Canadian Girls in Training!) which were great.

Interestingly - amongst our large Occupational Therapy & PhysioTherapy staff - an informal survey revealled that many OTs were in Explorers & CGIT, whereas PTs favoured Brownies & Guides    To some extent, there is reflection of this in the personalities and natures of the people I know today in these professions.

My brothers went to Cubs & Scouts at  our church - no equivalent UCC boys programme, if I recall. 

When I was in Scouts (late 70s), the church offered CGIT for girls but, as you say, nothing equivalent for the boys. Just youth group (which was mixed).

Mendalla

When was Tyros?

My troop the 4th Halifax (Canada's only kilted troup) and I went to CJ 77.  Our troup was also sponsered by our UCC and it was the only youth group for boys at that age in our church. St ANdrews in Halifax.

We  also went camping almost every other weekend. I enjoyed the camping. I think why we went so often  was because our troup leaders were abusers who would rape the boys they slept with. The main leaders were all abusers, but i only figured that out after talking with the other boys when we were young men. The leaders must have gone through 1/4 to 1/2 of the boys who went camping.

Which is another difference between boy scouts and the guides. ^There was was and is a lot less sex and rape going on in Guides.  I suspect including more women and girls in scouts also lessen the ammount of sex and rapes, since parents are more carelful in who looks out for their daughters.

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/tag/scouts-canada-sexual-abuse

Apparently, my troop missed the memo about the sex and rape. Did it go on in yours? Yes, there were incidents over the years and Scouts Canada quite wrongly covered them up. Yes, even a few incidents like this are a tragedy. But to imply that Scouts were some kind of hotbed of abuse and orgies, as this paragraph does, is carrying things a bit far.

Mendalla

Hi Mendalla ,

I was only comparing it in relation to the Girl  Guides. And relative to Girl Guides the ammount of sex abuse inside Boy Scouts is huge.  

Google Sex abuse Scouts Canada and you will see page after page of news reports concerning sex abuse.Nothing regarding resources for those who survivie abuse, and nothing about prevention.

https://www.google.ca/search?q=scouts+canada+&oq=scouts+canada+&aqs=chro...

Google Sex abuse Girl Guides Canada, and you will page after page of sex abuse information put out by the Guides and others. Including information and groups that help women  who have survivied childhood abuse, and prevention tips for girls and their parents, and girl guide leaders.

https://www.google.ca/search?q=sex+abuse+girl+huides+canada&oq=sex+abuse...

It seems to me, because Canadians put more resources into both the prevention of non familial sex abuse of girls than boys, abusers will target  boys, and occupations, and volunteer oportunities that give them access to boys, rather than girls. 

Likewise Canada remain ignorant about the true extant of childhood sex abuse as witness by the serval hundred organisations (usually rape crisis centres) that deal with female surviors, while there are only two orgainisation in Canada that deal with male survivors.(one of which is in Ottawa)

Part of the problem 

duplicate

Jae - in what ways do you think that Awana is similar to Scouts/Guides?  From my experience (lots in regard to S/G and conversations with involved children and parents in regard to Awana) they don't appear to have much in common at all.

S/G have an emphasis on fun, learning, community service, nature/camping/adventure. A very varied program overall.

Awana has an emphasis on fun and learning Bible verses. A very narrowly focussed program.

Part of the problem seems to be  that we fail to acknowledge the existence of the problem. Mandella reaction to me for pointing out the problem, is similar to the reaction of Catholic Bishops who accuse those of pointing out the problem of sex abuse against boys inside organisations and exaggerating. (Also a common reaction inside familys when girls are abused.) 

However the massive problem inside Scouts has been documented for years and talked about even longer. While there are no reports or talk about the problem with Guides.

And still we face denial.  Sexual abuse and rape against boys is being repported today, because we have de- stigmatised homosexuality and young men, straight or gay, are less likel;y to care if people identify them as gay. 

As a result expect even more reports from Boy Scout survivors in the coming days.

Alex - the facts about sexual abuse in the Scout movement are very troubling.  I knew Guide leaders who we kids identified as lesbian - not necessarily true, of course.  When camping they shared a small tent but never behaved inappropriately in front of the girls. It was pretty much a non-issue.

It has nothing to do with being gay, or straight, abusers just like to hurt kids.  The only reason many men abuse boys IMHO is because of easier access, that we give to them. This is the same in both the boy scouts and the Church.   In MHO it is interesting to note how much more goes into awareness and treatment of abuse regarding girls as oppose to boys.

For example, the boy scout leaders who abused boys in my troup all went on to marry women.  Abusers like to 

Alex, when it comes to young kids I don't see us being more careful with girls.  I think it's once they are pre-teens and teens, because at that point I think females are more likely to be sexually abused.

S/G and A are both organized groups for kids that involve fun and learning, like you've suggested above. They both operate with a system of age-defined levels. They both use badges and uniforms.

Chemgirl

I agree females are more likely to be abused, but because that is an accepted fact, we tend to protect them better. For example it is unlikely that society would accept the idea of an adult malke that is not related to a teenage (or preteen) gjrl, sleeping alone in the same tent. Nor would we send a teenage girl to spend the night alone with a male Priest.

While teenage girl might share a tent with an adult female, we would not allow a teen by to share a tent withan adult women.  However as abusers are overwhelmingly male, I would rather trust a teen boy with an adult female, rather than an adult male who is not related.   

I tend to agree with 2nd generation feminists that sex abuse is about power, and not sex. Thus those with power over all are the ones that abuse. Thus while adult  men generally have power over women, adult men also have power over children, and those in institutions(prison & homes for those with disabilities)  and , those in organisation (like Scouts )or in  workplaces(military and work camps).  But we do not do much to protect men or teen boys at risk.