In the thread: http://www.wondercafe.ca/discussion/social/wc2-who-are-we-statement?page...

I would like to understand from Jae, if not Chansen, then the presumption is it is I or Mendalla who is power hungry.

In addition, there is an implication that the goal of our starting up the site is about power.

Can you please expand upon your point. I would like to make sure that I understand whom you are speaking about and what particularly you are focussed on.

Here is another. If people want to pursue these conversations, should be moved here:

With respect to my language, sometimes that's how I converse. I actually used to be very anti-swearing, but that seems to have been abandoned.

There is a clear atmosphere of distrust toward Mendalla, Pinga and I that I just don't get. Does someone else want to take over for me? Be my guest. I don't need this, and in fact, being an admin probably means I'll have to be more stately, for fear that people think I'm abusing my position, even though my "position" is nothing special.

So yeah, I'm frustrated. I'm frustrated that redhead is still taking thinly-veiled swipes at us and being completely distrustful of our motives. Not to mention that she doesn't understand the Internet at all, and just seems to invent concerns that make no sense. Kimmio is still prone to doing the same. Jae I'm less worried about, because he's been back in troll mode and I have no idea which of his critical posts I'm supposed to take seriously, so I don't really take any of them seriously.

There are things we're going to mess up. We keep coming to WC membership with ideas and updates and polls, and I can't think of anything we're "holding back" (with the exception of really boring technical stuff and tools we're goign to use for unwanted guests which we don't want to publicize). I've not asked anyone to limit any discussion in any way. I always argue for fewer rules, made simple, but I'm one voice and I know it.

There are ways to bring up concerns, and some of you don't know them. Go through the threads and learn from points raised by others where the general response is, "Good point." Or even, "No, I don't think so."

Should I tone it down? Yeah, I should. Tell you what, I'll drop the swearing completely for at least the remainder of WC1.ca, if you guys drop the complaints about my motivations. I've been through this before on another site, and I'm not going to sit around and have people take potshots. I may not be a Christian, but I'm a good guy with good intentions, and it seems a lot of people here recognize that in me, and I'm appreciative of that. I don't need praise, but If you go after my motivations for volunteering when no one else came forward, expect a response.

Is it your intention, chansen, to continue to speak against me here at wondercafe and then into WC2?

Depends if you keep channeling your inner Jae or not.

Sometimes, you're a really great guy. Sometimes, you're obviously fishing for reactions. How am I supposed to separate your troll posts from your legitimate concerns?

From your past experience as a Mod, plus your time here on Wondercafe, you should be able to do that. It's perfectly fair if you call me out should you think I'm trolling, but, please, not all the time.

Thanks for the compliment regarding sometimes.

Jae, can you please respond to my post regarding "power-hungry"

Hi All,

No good deed goes unpunished.

Over on the "Show yourself thread" I posted.

I'd be much happier to be wrong about that.

For what it is worth, I trust the three of you to know what needs to be done and you have given me more than I really needed in terms of information.

I don't think of any of you as being power hungry.

As far as reputations go my experience of all of you is that you are fair.

Without wanting to drag this thread into flames I would encourage you to consider the source of all criticisms.  In so doing you can easily weed legitimate concerns from petty ones.

I regret being right about the attacks on your character for your offering to help.

Grace and peace to you.

John

Yeah, thank you for your invitation to do so, Pinga, but I think I've said all I'm going to say about that at this time.

Thanks Rev John.  This is a place where I am willing to have conversations about anything that we are doing that someone takes umbrage with 

My goal is to bring it here and deal with it rather than taking a thread off topic.

When it was announced that Wondercafe as we know it would cease as of the end of June, there was considerable angst.   For many people this site has/had become a lifeline for various reasons.

Consternation continued.....what to do.....what to do?  Admin. was approached and begged to alter their decision...no dice.

Out of this stepped the 3 Muskateers (and I mean that in every complimentary and positive way) - pinga, chansen and mendalla, who offered a way forward and are making it happen.

And then the questions, challenges, uncertainties, insults emerge.   And Jae who simply likes to yank people's chain (Jae having already stated he is unlikely to move to the new site, but has a lot to say anyway), and others who are asking good questions and have genuine concerns.

Face it folks....will Wondercafe2 be exactly like Wondercafe?  Obviously not, for many reasons, some necessary, some because times change and it is time to move forward - that's progress.   We should be applauding innovation and creativity rather than fearing  "change".  I think some of the suggestions for the new site will make it an exciting place to be and to share discussion.

What I've been reading over the past few days on various threads is deeply troubling, and I'll name it as an underlying mistrust.   And as this attitude continues, it may "kill the golden goose", and therein lies the tragedy.  Why is there such a problem in exercising patience and seeing where the new site takes us, trusting the good and responsible people who are leading the way.  Surely by now we know enough about pinga, chansen and mendalla to understand they are people with integrity, and their intentions are honourable.

I was away from WC for awhile and got behind on threads, and am now understanding that there has already been financial outlay from these people and others.  That's going above and beyond.   But why choose to make that commitment if people are going to shoot you down?

As chansen has stated, he and the others don't need this aggravation - damned if you do and damned if you don't.

Where do I get the authority to comment?  Because I've been there.  I was a moderator on a site years ago, a site that eventually had to shut down because of the problems that this one is struggling with to get off the ground. 

OK - better be quiet now....

That is too bad. If you still have that feeling, I hope you will explain it so that Mendalla or I have the opportunity to respond.

If not, I trust it won't resurface in future threads, but instead will come back to this thread with an articulation of your concern.

Chansen

Gosh.....you didn't swear at me. Thx. I'm very impressed. You're going to be more stately?  I love that idea. You can accomplish it.

Re: Jae's quote above:

"Is it your intention, chansen, to continue to speak against me here at wondercafe and then into WC2?"  end of quote

Perhaps its time for you  to give Dcn. Jae a break, a practice run of sorts for the new WC2 in being less critical of him? Newcomers will be influenced by opinions of others they read on the website.  If  you are constantly sticking pins into Jae  it doesn't give him a fair  running chance  at forming good relations on the new WC.

Perhaps I misunderstood but I thought these threads were being opened prior to the new WC for the express purpose of hashing out our differences, questions, and concerns before  we arrive at our new abode? 

I don't think I've complained about you or others motivations? I've no control over what others are posting or thinking.

 Rather than holding a gun to my head saying you'll quit swearing  if us guys drop the complaints  it would be cool if you could love us all with an unconditional love..... ( half kidding) and cut out the vulgarity regardless. I don't know everything but I've heard people say that those who resort to swearing have a limited vocabulary . I believe your communication skills are otherwise  fine as is your vocab.

That just goes with the job. The admin will always be attacked, (for both good and bad reasons, those that "do" will  be questioned and challenged) It takes practyice to determine betweent significant points and just trollish ones.

I would suggest that once WC2  is launched that people holding admin and mod functions work with two accounts each . One in which they are themselves and can use more colourful languages and say what they want.  And another from which they excercise their admin functions, without ingaging in non admin debates  

I can't believe that 3 good guys step foreward and volunteer and people bitch.

Reminds me of the church.

We don't do it this way.

Our way or the highway.

Not a bad idea, Alex, but I don't know any board of the three (other than WC) I am on that actually does it. The problem being, if you are just reading posting and see an offense (e.g. a known troll has snuck back in and is stirring up trouble), you then have to log out and log back in as your mod account to deal with it. But I understand what you are saying and, yes, in principle I like it.

Mendalla

Crazy, I don't mind the dischord.  It is ok.  Although it reminds me of church, it also reminds me of work.  We shouldn't ignore the negative voices as often there is wisdom in that negativity, an underlying question or dischord that should be listened to.

I would like to address the concerns in a respectful way, in this thread.  Just like there is no stupid question, there is no stupid concern.

For the record, I have not taken thinly veiled swipes at anyone involved in establishing WC2..  I have responded openly and asked questions and offered my services (rejected), on a number of threads regarding WC2 over the last few months.

The questions around swearing, etc are really good.  One of the next things that likely will be brought forward are items around moderation and the role of moderator and admin.  One of our members has graciously offered to do some research and comparison of guidelines for posting, and so, that is awesome. I look forward to that dialogue. The role of moderator/admin and the processes will be also a soon to occur dialogue but they need to wait until the technologyis determined as the system capability will impact the segregation of duties/ responsiblity.

Might I suggest that folks take notes of thoughts, concerns, issues regarding moderation and hold them until those two documents come up for dialogue?

 Might help keep the focus on our current deliverables 

redhead

I'd like to say that I think you've got "the smarts". Eg:  You were speaking up about financial grants within the UC etc. long before others did and many other points of interest. I remember your valuable  questions and your concerns about the opening and the running  of the new WC. You were sincere and you spent time giving it your very best shot. You were at the wrong place at the wrong time and your efforts weren't appreciated for what they were worth.

You were way ahead of the game because there really hadn't been much discussion about how the new WC would run  a few mos. ago, not like there is now. People didn't know how to reply to you.  They were reluctant to hazard a guess so you didn't get very fulfilling responses to your inquiries. I'm sorry. I think you're a super trooper.

Thanks be to God that you survived your serious illness and you are here  amongst us. I can scarcely believe my eyes when I read your intelligent posts. You've come a long way. I'm asking God to send His angels to watch over you and protect you through the coming days .

Edit : For those who weren't here when Redhead was very ill in hospital and later confined to a rehab institution for some months ( or years) I would just like to note that I'm quite sure she had to learn normal everyday skills over again. We had a group blog..?..thread set up for her here to send  her courage, prayers, and hope. She was finally able to write and respond  on it but today she has no memories of those  horrific days. She was very close to losing her life.

P.S. Wrong thread again? Please let it be.

Communication on discussion boards is often problematic (at least, it seems so to me).  So I'm just checking in to say "I think it isgoing well, and has as good a chance of succeeding as the original WC.  Some people will continue posting, some won't, some new friends might pop in. 

I continue to be impressed by the Group of Three who are putting a lot of time into this volunteering job.  How fortunate it is that we have people willing and capable to do something many of us probably couldn't do for oursellves.

I have no problem with Mendalla, Pinga, and chansen being the administrators on the new site. I note that Mendalla receives less criticim than Pinga or chansen.

These day I mainly confine myself to Facebook.

The truth is that intelligent debate here is often lacking - replaced by petty bickering and cheap insults.

What is missing from Wondercafe - that I appreciate on Facebook - is often respect.

I've noticed that on Facebook, if you limit your friends to those where respect abounds, criticism of views expressed can happen - but it's done so with respect -and thus provokes a more considered response.

Of course, if I allowed myself 400 "friends" on Facebook I'd encounter the same types of comments as I often see here......

It's an overriding concern of mine that the anonymity of social media is leading to a lack of empathy and compassion in society generally.. It's become almost a training ground.........

Thank you Pinga, Mendalla, and Chansen for all the work you are putting into this matter.  I love the WonderCafe.  There have been times I've depended upon it.  When I heard that some people valued it like I did and were willing and able to look into a replacement, I was relieved and happy.   Please continue the good work.  I wish I could do something to help but my computer skills are almost non-existant and I live far away.  I'll just be a loyal, and grateful, supporter. 

Well, why do you imagine that is?

But today...today I wasn't...but since you mentioned me. The post yesterday on the Who are we thread that Mendalla took mild offense to, sorry Mendalla, was more about the vibe the new site will be taking on, as it's no longer UCC is relevant to 'who are we?' it's not about Mendalla. I think it's perfectly fair to point that out- that the vibe is going to change. Expect that some people will have concerns. And it's not mistrust of your admin capabilities. I'm sure you're all capable and skilled. It's like church shopping, as it's called. Just because you prefer UCCan doesn't mean one dislikes Anglican or UU, or other groups, just wondering about where we fit, if we can adapt. A lot of us did see this place, at a point, like church of sorts. I even wrote that in my letter to Dan B. But the vibe will change. UCC can will not be the foundation of the place. Like it or not that's a big change for some people. That's not necessarily a bad thing, but it needs to be named and openly discussed. Btw, I had no problem with Aaron and the way things were here though in terms of the job he's done. Not all of us share your concern about that. As for you being a mod, given that I know you as I poster, I do wonder what that'll look like. It's fair to name that.

Can you expand upon that statement?  How do you see the united church of canada currently influencing theposts or content on this site?  How do you forsee it changing on the new site?

I see that there is a UCCan focus. Just speaking for myself, but when I come here, it's a UCCan space. It's a vibe. UCCan logos, UCCan messages,UCCan ministers, a lot of discussion about what's going on in churches. There are a lot of people from other backgrounds too, and it would be good if there were even more, but the place still feels like an extension of UCCan. I guess that makes me feel safer to discuss my faith and questions thereof.

What I like is that there will be a more-even playing ground.

I anticipate you will still see familair logos.

I hope that united church ministers will continue to post. some have said they will. others are on the wire.

I anticipate crazy and others will continue to post about what is going on in united churchof canada churches.

I anticipate that united church of canada staff will continue to post information about programs on the new site. It definitely will be encouraged.

I understand redhead has been through a lot. Many of us have. But those attempts to discuss serious funding when we had no idea what we were even building were premature and completely overblown. Even starting from scratch, we're looking at startup costs of a few hundred dollars plus ongoing costs of less than $500 per year. Instead of having better information for you all, I killed way too much time on this forum today. That was my mistake.

People who say that bad language invalidates arguments are usually holding arguments that are so atrocious that they cause involuntary swearing from those opposed. I'd rather look at the contents of what people are saying than look for ways I can claim victory by technicality.

My point is that if we're going to get things off on a better foot, then I'm not the only one who has to change.

Mine too.

Hey...

Take all the words above, from all the voices and all the perspectives. Put them in a brown bag and give them a really good shake. Then shake them again. Empty the bag into a good stuff strainer held over a cup.

What do you get?

About half a cup full of good stuff and a strainer holding about a quart of not so good stuff.

Save the cup half full of good stuff and toss out the quart or so of not so good stuff in the strainer.

Repeat process with all previous threads and all threads to come.

George

I like to think I'm pretty good about being critical.  So far, there isn't much I take issue with.  I'm sure when the site is up I'll find things :)

Hi chansen

In real life I've been in places that were quite rough around the edges. I don't mean to be a prude re my  issues around unsavory language and    swearing.

I have  a teenage cousin who had been  very involved in love chat meeting places on the net. She had actually met some less than desirable men folk who she had invited home ((felony charges). I got on my virtual  broom and went to investigate some of these  live  chats, myself having magically  become some 60 years younger of course at the    time.

Some of  the guys were quite  busy being macho or tough.  Lots of girls really do like the bad boys.   I wasn't saying the proper things....?.. so I'd get told to F...off etc. No problem, no argument from me.  I wasn't open enough or available enough I presume.

 There are 1000's of  chats on the net. I simply moved on....which is my point about swearing. Some folk,  particularly newbies to the net may not find swearing very endearing.  We have to think about and consider the good of the whole community as a new WC forum  on the worldwide net.

To be fair, I am much more accomplished at swearing than teenage boys. I have studied swearing through such diverse experiences as general contracting (Why the fuck is this not done yet?), engineering (Who the fuck designed this?), home renovations (Why the fuck did I decide to do it this way?), university (I don't understand this at all. I'm fucked.), and parenting (I'm so fucking tired.), and that's just my abilities with one word.

Look, I get your point, but I expect we all need a bit of a fresh start. And, I think we can all contribute to a WC2 where swearing is less prevalent, and so are the reasons to swear in the first place.

chansen

My grandson plays Lil Wayne videos on my puter in the living room....and Snoop Dawg..?..is it...I know all the rappers. I think Drake is the mildest. I laughed so hard one time. My big sis. in Van. saw a Shoppers Drug ad in a flyer for lip gloss on Valentine's Day. It came very close to using the muther...f....sp- word so she complained to the store. They were hoping to hit a young audience. I thought it was rather comical.

lol, mine are  "wtf"..generally followed by "who the h** designed this" which really means, no one designed...they just implemented.

regarding swearing...my promise to not swear is going to be about the same as others comments to not be asses.

Editted to remove the F* bomb.  

Pinga

I think we had a thread and questions  about  the F word one time and it was decided that it was a common usage household word and quite acceptable. Re swearing I am also  referring more to biblical swearing words e.g.....Jesus Christ  etc. altho' I use " Good God"....."Oh  my Lord" etc.myself. 

Here's a long interesting read on the origin of the F  word, really quite amusing, including Snopes opinions. I learn something new everyday.

 Admin. may remove this post or links if they are unsuitable, no problem.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuck

I know that when posting some people use it for a specific emphasis - and if it is well placed and not repetitive I wouldnt' get my knickers in a knot.

When a person is speaking it can come out intentionally, but it can also be a slip of the lip . . . unintentional and without thinking . . . off the cuff so to speak.  But when a person is typing, it is intentional . . . it has to be - no slip of the fingers or keys there.  So if a person is using the "f" word or any other swear word, it is because that is what they want to use and have decided to use.

love this description George - I will hang onto it!  thanks. 

George often takes the time to compose wonderful responses.   that was a keeper...and a reminder.

Do I understand that right, you find "Jesus Christ" more offending that "F - you?"
Do you really think,Jesus cares if you call him in vain?

mrs anteater

Its just my  upbringing that has stayed with me I reckon. I do not like hearing Jesus  name used in an aggressive or nasty swearing way. 

Absolutely. Sometimes, I decide to use it.

What I find completely hilarious is when people substitute a letter or sound, like "pucking" or "flocking". Like that makes it better.

By actively avoiding certain words, who are we saving? Children? They know more swear words than you or I do - they just can't use them in a grammatically correct fashion. Do you want your children running around using bad grammar? No, you don't. So swear around them on occasion so they don't embarrass themselves. Correct them when they swear incorrectly.

I'm actually half serious here. My 6-year-old can swear, and will on rare occasions in the house, but she knows she can't swear in school, and she turns it off there. Anyone who thinks they are saving the next generation by not swearing around children is completely deluded.

Here's the thing with kids: If you make something a big deal, they'll want to do it more. If it happens without fanfare, they won't notice or care. I used to take sips on my dad's beer as a kid, and I hardly drank again until well into my 20's, and even now I would rarely ever fail a breathalizer, and I'd be nowhere close to failing if I'm driving. Know how to make a kid want to do something? Tell them they're not allowed to do it.

So, if you're all uppity about swearing around kids, grow up.

Are you giving me permission to swear in my neighbourhood with all the little kids?  Since moving here, I've noticed how much I do it.  When I was younger I didn't all that much, but being around mostly people about my own age for so long has changed that.  It's not every other word out of my mouth, but any slipup and it's the word that comes out.  Jump out of the truck without decent shoes - f-bomb.  Something falls out of my hands between the car and house f-bomb.  Trying to disconnect the sump pump hose cuz Chemguy didn't do it before he took off out of town for work even though it had stopped working once and the whole thing is frozen and he's giving me instructions on the phone while I am telling him I physically can't get the thing off and repeating the instructions multiple times isn't going to help - ummmm pretty sure that was multiple f-bombs.  The FFS thread wasn't for effect, that was the only description for the situation that time in my head.

Funny, it isn't an issue around my parents, but there's been a few times I've said it and then realized a kid wasn't too far away.  I've gotten somewhat better, maybe I gotta switch it up more, there are more acceptable swears than the f-word :)

I've just known so many kids who are little angels around grown ups, but are complete bastards when they think grown ups are out of earshot. Give me a kid who swears a little but cares about other people over a kid who seems perfect but is a two-faced liar any day.

Just get it up and running people. Don't worry about bitching from the back seat.  If you build it they will come. We'll work out the snags later.  There will certainly be some snags.  

By the way, anything Redhead says or does is alright with me.  Thank you to stardust for recalling redheads difficult struggle and her miraculous (and difficult) recovery.

Or farking? Thanks for that one. I picked it up from you. I think it's farking hilarious. :)