debriefing bump but you can keep yours on thanks.

I personally do not know what is worse, what someone may or may not do to a person or what that person/others they know may or may not do in response. I am leaning on the latter (and not because of this threads issue but the issue in general, meaning "all" people).

One cannot always chose what someone else does to them but they can always chose what they do to another.
When will this circle end in life?

Fundie bashing. Fun, probably for some, but not for me.

I have attended RC, Anglican, Orthodox and am now a confirmed UCCer. Why, because it resonates with me.

Religion is a matter of faith, faith being personal.

If you chose to believe the universe was sneezed into existence, who am I to question or disuade.

God Bless

Russ

Good thing I wear boxers.

What could I have done? I don't know really, I didn't actively engage the user in question much (if at all) this time around. My defence of those calling her out may have been inflammatory and misguided. My last post on a thread started by dreamywinds was written after I found out she had left, and was an attempt to engage her thoughts about immigrants and how they are treated, rather than an attempt to mock or debase her. Too little, too late? Or should I have kept ignoring her? I don't like seeing a thread filled with "common-sense" xenophobia go unanswered, but it is worrisome to think about where that thread may have ended, given her past actions.

i find it interesting how the board just jumps to life as soon as sylviac comes back in one of her many incarnations. do i think that she is gone for good this time?? not a chance.

OMG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I just went to "that thread" and yet again I am utterly disgusted and want to throw up!!!

Most days I am soooooo very ASHAMED that I am a human being.

I would rather be unarmed and face a bunch of ravinous murdering men then sometimes see what we can do to each others souls.

what in particular has you so worked up, realmseer??

What we allow "ourselves" to become.

I have generally been avoiding DW. In which thread did she announce she was leaving?

realmseer,

Hi,

You wrote:

I personally do not know what is worse, what someone may or may not do to a person or what that person/others they know may or may not do in response.

It is a tough call isn't it?

Holding ourselves accountable is tough enough, how do we hold our intimates accountable and when does doing so look more like taking sides against them rather than helping to straighten them out?

Challenging an opponent is easy. Challenging a comrade is not.

You wrote:

I am leaning on the latter (and not because of this threads issue but the issue in general, meaning "all" people).

Well wherever people are involved something will soon go wrong. There are other problems involved in bulletin board discussions. The first is immediacy. It can sometimes take days for a response and the longer that wait time lasts the more frustration levels increase or attention spans wane. The second is text-based medium. The last word posted is the last word read and that last word can be ugly sometimes.

Spoken words exist only for the hearer past the moment.

The written word lasts as long as copies of it exist.

Text-based media can be unforgiving in that regard.

You wrote:

One cannot always chose what someone else does to them but they can always chose what they do to another.

That is true. Just as true is that we also can choose what we will allow one to say to another. Sometimes we feel an obligation to step in. Whether that is legitimate or not probably depends upon hundreds of other factors.

You wrote:

When will this circle end in life?

When the last snake devours its own tail.

Grace and peace to you.

John

"worship in the early church". The text revjohn reproduced was all the info dreamywinds gave on her departure.

RussP,

Hi,

You wrote:

If you chose to believe the universe was sneezed into existence, who am I to question or disuade.

So anything goes does it?

Grace and peace to you.

John

"When the last snake devours its own tail."

This is what I "fight" to stop. I don't want this to be mankinds out come.

Even the innocent and pure rabbit (if you will) can easily become the snake if it stands still and lets it be eatten.
I am not saying stand still and do nothing but you don't have to "become" the "snake" in order to save yourself. IMHO

It is not knives that cut the soul of a man to such peices that it cannot find it again.

Nighthawk,

Hi,

You wrote:

should I have kept ignoring her?

At one point in her life here I was all for doing just that. I mean, in a crowded room ignoring one person's voice can effectively shut them down and out.

Doesn't really work in a text-based medium where the last word often defines the thread. The question is how to effectively engage and the answer probably depends upon the outcome you are looking for.

You wrote:

I don't like seeing a thread filled with "common-sense" xenophobia go unanswered, but it is worrisome to think about where that thread may have ended, given her past actions.

Amen. Having seen how low she is willing to stoop there is no real guarantee that she cannot go lower. It then becomes a question of how low are we willing to stoop to try and keep her up where the air is breathable or do we hope she will go lower still and force Admin's hand again? Pretty risky business. Those who dig holes could, if they aren't paying attention find themselves stuck at the bottom of one.

And if it is a fear of someone stooping so low how can that stooping be prevented?

Grace and peace to you.

John

revjohn

Basically anything goes, why not?

Just because somebody told somebody told somebody a really neat story about rising flood waters, that then got written down and reformatted for the latest Microsoft Word version 0.00001 and then revised to fit the views of "The Church" doesn't make it so.

I don't know what God is, but I do know he isn't what is written in the Bible. By that I mean he/she/it is so beyond man that it is like trying to describe the world when all you see is a street out your bedroom window. Try describing a mountain which you have never seen and know nothing about.

God Bless

Russ

realmseer,

Hi,

You wrote:

This is what I "fight" to stop. I don't want this to be mankinds out come.

I don't think that this will be the fate of the human race. There are too many doves among us. We are not all snakes.

You wrote:

Even the innocent and pure rabbit (if you will) can easily become the snake if it stands still and lets it be eatten.

Spheres of concern and spheres of influence do not always overlap. My influence here is much less than my concern. I have shared my concern and my thoughts with the user and there has been no appreciable impact. The user is outside of my sphere of influence but within my sphere of concern. The same is true of others.

I have done what I thought honestly was the best to do. Others disagreed with my analysis or my thoughts which is fair. I cannot change what has happened. I can hope to come to understand it and possibly prevent it from repeating.

Ugliness has followed this user like stink follows a skunk. There has been encouragment of the user on her better days and the elements of her character which are positive have been lifted up and lauded by those who have also stood in opposition to her.

For whatever reason she hides those positives behind some very powerful negatives. Her choice but she doesn't own the consequences alone. Once she allows those negatives to go on display here all of us are forced to deal with them. That, of course, is not limited only to this particular user. Anyone of us who demonstrates ugliness here is willing that all others be painted with those same shades.

The only way I know to stop it is to be ready to paint with another brush. Some colours don't cover very well and previous ugliness may bleed through the fresh coat of paint that is more attractive.

This would be successful if the negatives could be contained. Sadly, those willing to let the negatives out are not overly concerned with how much negative comes out or the mess it makes.

You wrote:

you don't have to "become" the "snake" in order to save yourself. IMHO

True. The dove could just fly away. The problem becomes graver when the snake has devoured every safe place the dove might land and it waits, open mouthed for the dove to drop from exhaustion.

To save the dove we may need to kill the snake.

Grace and peace to you.

John.

RussP,

You wrote:

Basically anything goes, why not?

Then Dreamywinds is free to post whatever she feels like and all of it is okay.

That would mean that what she initially posted as SylviaC was acceptable and those who are at fault are those who were offended.

Nothing is wrong if anything goes right?

Grace and peace to you.

John

revjohn

Being an engineer, I at times make myself less than clearly understood.
I was referring to reglion, not to anything negative that Dreamy said.

Sorry for the confusion.

God Bless

Russ

RussP,

Hi,

You wrote:

I was referring to reglion, not to anything negative that Dreamy said. Sorry for the confusion.

Thanks for clarifying RussP.

Why is religion exempt though?

Part of the problem has been SylviaC/Seintje8/Hopeful_One/Dreamywind's insistance that here particular point of view is the result of her religious beliefs.

Further, there are some here who, while not as offensive as the user in question, share in those same beliefs.

Why would belief be anything goes but expressing those beliefs be somehow different?

Grace and peace to you.

John

Well speaking as one of the main rectal orifices in the situation, I have some very mixed feelings.

I still believe that it was necessary to hold her to account, that she not be allowed a semblance of "holiness" in the midst of fundamental dishonesty. On the other hand there were times I didn't like myself very much when speaking to her. I really wish she had chosen to negotiate directly with admin after the first ban. I have no doubt that there would have been a way for her to return as Sylviac, without the deceit.

The strange thing, at least for me, is the thread that she chose to announce she was leaving was one of the few I felt comnfortable in giving a positive response to her. It has always been my opinion, and I hope my habit, that if I am critical of a person's behaviour, I must be prepared to be supportive when they exhibit behaviour I consider to be "better". To fail in that regard would make me a hypocrit, which in my case would be the worst, since it is hypocrisy in others I am most critical of. I often fail, as humans will, but I get better at it as time, and God, teach me.

The "worship in the early church" thread, gave me an opportunity for such a positive post. There was, quite literally, nothing I could find in her original post to criticize (I tried, believe me I tried lol). her positive post made it easy to give a positive reply.

That she chose that post to announce her departure has lead me to think very carefully. Is it possible God may be telling me something? Probably. Is it time to re-examine myself; to be dritical of my own "lofty motives"? That is always profitable, and perhaps moreso in this case.

I need to do some inward reflection and figure out where all this is going. I pray I have the courage to enact whatever conclusions I come to.

If Dreamywinds is reading this, I have one suggestion to make. I hope you will consider this, if you find merit in it.

If you are the same person who posted as Sylviac et al, please go back to admin and talk. Lay it all out and ask to be let back in legitimately. I have found admin to be more than reasonable when a person is williong to work with them. If you are willing to do this I offer you my full support. My biggest difficulty was accepting you under false pretences. If you were to step up and remove that barrier, I would be forced by my own moral convictions to wipe the slate from my POV.

Not to say I would be your bestest frind in the whole world. We would still disagree on many things, but perhaps you could be the catalyst for a change in me. C'mon, I know that last sentence intrigues you :-)

Well, whether DW reads that or not, it has been a cathartic moment or two. I actually find myself hoping she does come back, openly and with admin approval. I believe I need to also prepare myself for the possibility that she comes back without it. I need to make sure I've done my sums and learned my lessons.

revjohn

It isn't. You should feel free to express your beliefs, as long as you also appreciate that they are yours, not others, and your goal shouldn't be to ram your beliefs down other people's throats. A discussion shouldn't degenerate into name calling.

God Bless

Russ

PS - Or perhaps I am just too naive for this forum.

taking a bit of a presumption here....

I looks to me from the outside that revjohn is speaking specifically about DW's behaviour, and asking should we accept it without question... and Russp is talking about allowing people to express their own beliefs about faith, etc. in general, not specifically DW.

I'm looking at it and thinking you folks are discussing two different things without realizing it.

Witch,

Hi,

Thanks for being so open.

You wrote:

I actually find myself hoping she does come back, openly and with admin approval.

Like yourself I think that this would be instrumental in any kind of reconciliatiion. The ongoing saga has lead me to much reflection on the limits of grace and the necessity of repentance. The one robbery that most disappoints me is that her failure to repent allowed us to fail with respect to forgiveness.

Had I been the only one injured by her posts I would have the freedom to forgive without her repentance.

Truthfully I escaped most of the injury she dealt out simply because I was not the target of her ugliness. I do not know that it is my obligation or my right to forgive her for the harm she has done to others. In that line of thought I don't know that I have a duty or an obligation to forgive the harm others have caused her.

Still, when one is willing to evidence transformation it would be gracious to allow that transformation (assuming it to be positive) to occur. You are calling yourself to account for your part. I encourage your reflection and the example it sets.

You wrote:

I believe I need to also prepare myself for the possibility that she comes back without it.

It seems to be more likely than she being gone for good and it will be a test to all of us I am sure.

You wrote:

I need to make sure I've done my sums and learned my lessons.

I suspect that you are not alone in that.

Grace and peace to you.

John

Witch

You are probably right.

Unfortunately I spend too much time, or rather more time, than I should on here and don't always have time to read all the posts, before commenting. Me bad for that.

revjohn

I don't know. I don't want to make light and say turn the other cheek, but sometimes that may be the best thing. People full of vile are not about to change.

God Bless

Russ

Witch,

Hi,

You wrote:

taking a bit of a presumption here....

No presumption in an open forum. Pile in.

You wrote:

I looks to me from the outside that revjohn is speaking specifically about DW's behaviour, and asking should we accept it without question...

That is a good analysis of my questioning.

You wrote:

and Russp is talking about allowing people to express their own beliefs about faith, etc. in general, not specifically DW.

I get that also, I'm trying to lead RussP into the discussion I started because while on the surface they are different things I believe in this particular instance they come together.

You wrote:

I'm looking at it and thinking you folks are discussing two different things without realizing it.

I'm aware of it.

With relationship to the SylviaC/Sientje8/Hopeful_One/Dreamywinds situation I have repeatedly stated my beef is not with what she believes so much as it is with her belief that everyone should be able to read it.

I do not agree with what she thinks about a good many things.

How she chooses to display those beliefs gives me a bigger headache.

If what she believed was different from how she behaved I doubt that there would be such a fuss about her.

To make this about what she believes rather than how she behaves allows the conversation to be hi-jacked in terms of the fundy/libby we/they routine and I strongly reject any argument that would reduce the tension surrounding this particular user to that level.

Grace and peace to you.

John

RussP,

Hi,

You wrote:

I don't want to make light and say turn the other cheek, but sometimes that may be the best thing. People full of vile are not about to change.

I don't think the suggestion to turn the other cheek is ever offered lightly. It requires more strength of character than does returning the blow.

The problem here is Jesus commands us to turn our cheeks when struck he does not tell us to force another to turn their cheek when they are struck and unfortunately silence here can feel like doing just that.

I agree with you that vile people are most likely going to continue to be vile.

Despite that I still believe in the power of Redemption and do not believe there are many beyond the reach of grace.

I just don't know how to facilitate that reach in situations like these.

Grace and peace to you.

John

This feels and sounds like high school.

Waterfall,

Hi,

You wrote:

This feels and sounds like high school.

Too true. Immaturity hurts.

Most people outgrow high school though. Sadly the immaturity and the pain it can cause are not always something we can graduate from.

Grace and peace to you.

John

Not sure I understand what you mean Waterfall... could you expand please?

witch, RevJohn hit the nail on the head.

revjohn

You can lead a horse to water.....

You have to, on some level, want to be saved.

God Bless

Russ

Like Witch, I found the "early church" a very positive thread that would have lead to very interesting discussion. I am very surprised that this is the thread she chose to announce her departure.I think she will return under a new user name and that to me is gamepolaying but I guess we will see.

Waterfall wrote:
"witch, RevJohn hit the nail on the head."

He has a nasty habit of doing that....

What I meant from the question though, when you say "sounds like high school", are you referring to this thread in particular, or the situation with Dreamywinds in general?

The situation with Dreamywinds in general.

OK thanx for the clarification

aha - but highschool would never have seen the introspection that we're seeing here.
I didn't read the original thread but I've seen DW pop up here & there, and I've seen her in all the incarnations. Having an arguement is sometimes fun, but only when there is development. With her there has never been "development" that I've noticed.
I honour your reflections Rev John & Witch & RussP - I think this is what life in today's world requires. Real introspection about situations that baffle us. Our world is full of cultures that contradict each other but must coexist, and its always easy to say i'm right, you're wrong. But that isn't really how it needs to work.

I'm not sure what will happen. My tendency has always been to back off and let someone else argue it out. I haven't been very quick to jump to someone's defence, but I hope at times I've popped in with a diffusing smile or a mediating suggestion. Others seem so capable of the back & forth jabs and I learn a lot from it sometimes.

Birthstone

The important thing IS to jump in and make your point.

There is no shame in slinking away and being grumpy for awhile, after being stomped on, do it ALL the time.

God Bless

Russ

revjohn wrote: "I do not know what I could have done differently to achieve a better outcome."

Waterfall wrote: "This feels and sounds like high school."

EZ Answer: I remember a friend in highschool who was dumped by her boyfriend. She convinced the ex-boyfriend to go out with her again -- only so she could have the satisfaction of breaking up with him.

"You can't fire me, I quit!"

Interesting speculation Smote....

It was right after she reported to Admin.

Ahh well, we'll likely never know. That may be for the best after all.

Interesting analogy to remove our responsibility to understand why she couldn't be a part of wondercafe.
Yes, let's just say it was her choice to leave and some didn't make it difficult for her here. (sigh)

I don't think it's an attempt to avoid responsibility, Waterfall, at least not on my part. I'm quite prepared to accept responsibility, both for those things I believe I was justified in doing, and for those things which I may not have been.

I think it's more speculation to help us understand. Actually giving up and leaving was not something evident in DW's character, neither this incarnation or the others. Whether one choose to see it as giving in to pressure, or cutting her losses, or simply deciding to go elsewhere, or whatever, it is a different response than what we have seen.

So we speculate. knowing full well we may never know, but finding value in the exploration.

Waterfall,

Hi,

You wrote:

Interesting analogy to remove our responsibility to understand why she couldn't be a part of wondercafe.

Why do you believe that she couldn't be a part of WonderCafe?

You wrote:

Yes, let's just say it was her choice to leave and some didn't make it difficult for her here.

Given that she walked through a user ban on at least three different occasions I'm actually kind of surprised that Jeffery's badgering appears to be successful. Still, time will tell.

In the meantime how could we have made it easier for her and how could we have made her easier for others?

Grace and peace to you.

John

Possibly admin. should be able to step in to give a warning that personal attacks are not permitted and steer the "conversation" back on topic.

waterfall
I don't agree with Admin having to tell us what is a correct post or an incorrect post. There are guidelines posted and we are adults. I would hope we don't have to be legislated.

Rev. John,
"Why do you believe that she couldn't be a part of WonderCafe?"

I fully believe she should be part of Wondercafe, under whatever name she wishes. If someone touches a nerve, avoid it or be prepared to disagree without
malice.

Tsakani, well that's your opinion, as for myself I believe that personal attacks are out of line on this forum and there are some that do need to be told.

I agree with you that personal attacks are uncalled for that is where we as adults need to take ownership of ourselves.

Unfortunately some things digress to the extreme and some action should be taken. In my opinion and adult would recognize the need for this sometimes. It doesn't infringe on your rights to give an opinion, but without it, it infringes on the rights of someone that is being harassed.

Waterfall,

Hi,

You wrote:

I fully believe she should be part of Wondercafe, under whatever name she wishes.

That doesn't answer my question.

Is this the way you want the conversation to go?

You wrote:

If someone touches a nerve, avoid it or be prepared to disagree without
malice.

That is all the written statements of SylviaC/Sientje8/Hopeful_One/Dreamywinds amounted to? Touched nerves?

Her statements were fair and it is our collective sensitivity that is the problem?

Could you defend statements that she made which resulted in deleted posts or her username?

I am not saying that the woman got what she deserved and that others were right to do what they did. I am wondering if the material that got her deleted is in your opinion, acceptable.

The issue of different user names comes into play only in connection with her ban from the forum.

Grace and peace to you.

John