If we can not use wondercafe.ca....

Would we be in any kind of violation if we used a name like perhaps Cafe Wonder? or even something like Wonder Diner?  These names are similar in premise as Wonder Cafe.  I don't know how the UCC would feel about that? I remember when I use to check for available names for businesses you had to pay to check the availability of a name even before you could have it.  Would this be the same for a domain name?

(>-.-)> *Peace* ~ Beyond ~ *Peace* <(-.-<)

Steven A. Breeze

Well said Wolfie - "I don't know how the UC would feel about that". The truth is none of us know what the UC thinks about anything at all! We can only hear their words and see their actions.  They appear to be totally uninterested in communicating with us.

Good question Wolfie.  Obviously a new name is a starting point.

Chansen, I understand that people are pissed off with me for driving home the issues of running a volunteer - driven site,  but I hope you can correct my thoughts by explaining how a cost-free site would operate.

Here are some of questions:

Are there 24-7 moderators?

Are there rules of conduct?

Can users be removed/blocked for inapproriate  behaviour?

These questions are raised because WC was established within such parameters.

Who and how could people monitor and maintain such a site, if not employed?  I do not think that a handful of volunteers could do so, even with the best of intentions.  It is too much to ask of volunteers, even if they wish for a project to succeed.  And there is evidence to support that historically:  major volunteer driven charity projects are run by very wealthy volunteers who do not work full time and thereby donate full time equivalent hours to managing the project.  Other people, not in the same wealth class, donate skills and limited time. That is the reality of volunteerism. And that is how fundraisers think. And recruit, and act.

So at the end of the day, with free software, how is Cafe Wonderful run?

It will not, in any way, be similar to the current Cafe.  And if there are any costs, it will be membership fees, not donations.

I am not a pessimist, nor am I an expert in the field, yet I do have experience with fundraising, grant writing, communications (includiing websites,IT  realities, etc), working with charities for most of my professional life. 

And so, I present  this to WC members:  the transfer of data is most likely a no-go.  Creating, maintaining and operating a site by volunteers is unrealistic.

Creating a new, streamlined, cost - free site is possible, but it will in no way resemble WC.

Of course not. Just like there aren't 24/7 moderators now. Do you really think there are?

I argued with Aaron to make revs Steven, John, Gord, and a few others admins, so that moderation would be available more hours of the day. My argument was dismissed.

There are bolierplate rules of conduct with any forum software, and we could tailor that to our needs, or lift it from WC.ca

Yes, just like any other forum.

From a webserver running queries to a MySQL database.

Are you not aware of any other forums run at no cost or with minimal costs carried by a few? None?

Because they're out there. Honest.

It will, and it won't. I think we've mostly been discussing a stripped-down forum. WC is run on Drupal 6 - a content management system with a forum component that really isn't all that great. We could choose a colour scheme and a template that resembles this one. With the same people, it would be similar.

As for the content, I know that when I post, I don't consider the rules, at all. I post what I think are the right things to post. The percentage of posts that actually require admin intervention, I'd wager, are less than 1%. Probably less than 0.1%

I have no doubt that you've been involved in volunteer projects, and I do think there would be initial costs involved. But I don't think they're insurmountable, and the fact that we have a core of people who want WC to continue, instead of creating something from scratch with no user base, is the most important asset we have.

Hi kaythecurler, I am reading these threads, but I don't really have anything to say about them at the moment. These aren't decisions I can make on my own and there are others that would have to be brought into the loop. I will share these ideas with my colleagues though.

Thanks,
Aaron

Thank you, seriously,  Chansen, for your reply.

It helps  me to understand how to move forward thoughtfully.

It is most likely that a new site would be developed through memebership.  (And I still have reservations about UCCan transferring data).

How can we manage funding?

Please understand, I am not against moving forward: I simply understand the realities and  potentential roadblocks.

I am not trying to be difficult or shoot down plans, I just see and know from experience and education what will happen

Establishing a new site is REALLY important to a core group of people:  obviously not worth UCCan investment- as discussed on other threads, and fair enough.

So how can we continue to communicate - to reach out, find solace, and care for each other in a virtual way that still holds meaning.  Because we really do develop,nuture, support and care for people.   We will never meet,contact or know in RL.     Yet that is a gift of grace and a gift of caring.

This is why we are struggling to make something new, and the only reason that I have reservations is that I know most volunteer driven projects run amok, and it takes the time and cost of at least one employed person to manage such an endeavour.

Isn't that the first thing?

Talk to the people who own it now?

UCC has spent $$$ advertising wondercafe.ca. To change the name would be like burning a big pile of money.

I think that they could do the migration and then sell it for a dollar - thus protecting any names/people who do not want their info going out.

But more likely, they may find that they can keep control of it in a less expensive package on review.

I've been part of the test of the Invision forum that Pinga set up. So far, it is quite usable. I prefer the editor to WC's (indeed, I prefer most other forum editors that I have used to WC's). Provides all threading, sub-forums, and so on that would allow use to create basically the same structure we have now but would also allow us to easily alter it (add new forums, for instance). It has "skins" so making it look however we want would not be a problem provided someone more versed in XML/HTML was willing to work out how to create the required template. There is a cost to license the software.

In terms of rules and modding, it has a full moderation suite that allows reporting of issues. Mods can then take a variety of actions including deleting/editing posts and threads, issuing warnings, and suspending/banning users, all of which are logged. I set up a fake troll on the test system and tried out the features. It works and seems to work well.

We would, however, need to set up the rules and guidelines for the mods on what is acceptable repercussions for breaking each rule. I don't think you ban someone the first time they swear nor do you let a vicious personal attack off with just a warning. Given the subject matter, we would need to be careful in some areas.

vBulletin is similar from a user standpoint but I have not been a mod or admin on a vBulletin board. They do have the same suite of features for modding (I have seen them in use) but how the implementation compares, I am unsure. The big advantage of vBulletin is that it is widely used so finding experienced admins, plugins, templates, etc. should be easy.

Cost wise, the boards that I am on all have some kind of revenue stream other than a membership fee. Basic membership is free on all of them. Some of those revenue streams include:

• Advertising
• Affiliation with a store (e.g. rpg.net affliates with an online store that carries games and gaming supplies, if you access the store through rpg.net, I think they get a cut)
• Selling or producing products related to the topic (e.g. a fiction board I'm on does some publishing)
• Premium memberships (unlocks additional features or gets discounts in the store, or whatever). Some require you to be a premium member to be a mod.
• One is actually basically an advertising forum with discussion around the subject of the ads. The advertisers pay so members do not have to.

Mendalla

Even if the UCCan move the posts to a basic forum, they still would be operating it with staff - it would still be Aaron's baby, or someone else who is on payroll. As such, it will still be an ongoing cost that has to be explained and defended.

The way Pinga and I are describing it, Wondercafe becomes something that is operated by the user base, that was initially created by the UCCan.

If people do not want their posts migrated to a new forum, give them ample warning and the ability to opt out. Because Aaron has already deleted all posts associated with forum members before, I assume it won't be a problem to remove all posts for any user who does not want their posts to remain in a new environment under new ownership. Hopefully, that would remove some objections.

I asked already in the other thread, and I have the feeling the answer is no.

Is it possible to just shut this site down to new posts, but leave it up for read only?  On the home page, link to the new place.

Thanks Aaron. Right now, it's just discussion. You can take anything you want to your colleagues at any time. I think we're most interested in exploring if the UCCan would be open to us moving forum post content only to a new site, so that the existing posting history of Wondercafe is maintained. We'd hate to lose it.

Edit:

And Aaron, from a hosting perspective, how much storage does wondercafe use, and what sort of bandwidth is currently required?

Thanks.

How about notreallywondercafebutaplacethatkindofsortofoperatesalongthesamelineswiththesameoldliberaltheologyencouraged.ca

Jae, there are dozens of evangelical online communities you can join. You complaining that a UCCan-sponsored community is liberal is like me complaining it's theistic. What the hell did you expect?

It's also not a technical point. Let's keep this to technical stuff, please.

If software and a new site is free, who manages it and owns it?

How secure is it?

Once again, I feel the need to apologise in advance - I am not trying to kill a project, but I think these questions are  noteworthy.

As for the cost of hosting, here is a low cost host located in Canada that is well-reviewed:

https://www.crocweb.com/index.html

There are others, of course. With posts happening here at the rate of a few every minute, instead of a few every second like some forums, I assume we're looking at a hosting package that would be less than $10/month. That's why I'm asking Aaron about the storage and bandwidth requirements for WC.ca

That's a big question, and a very good one. I've been thinking about that. I don't have an answer yet.

Anyone?

As secure as those holding the keys. Most security breaches are the result of insecure passwords. Any forum installation would have to be updated. When it's a stock installation instead of a custom job like WC.ca, that's much easier.

Absolutely.

To your first paragraph: good point.

To your second: ideas for a new website address had already been given before I gave my own suggestion. Is URL not a technical point.

Look whatevr the storage cost and bandwidth requirements, it will be low. Low enogh that I could cover the costs. Howver I suspect I would have no problem getting a few others to help. The cost to the UCC is atrtributable to the highly customisable software they use now. and the staff time that software requires.

Second people wonder about 3 things. Affiliation with the church, the domain name wondercafe.ca and  the data.  These things will likeley be need to be decided by the executive of the United Church. They will base their decisions, like all of the decisions they make, on what information they have and what the staff says, and what memebrs say. They tend to be very pragmatic as in "what is doable with the resources we have? What are our legal responsibilities? etc

There are enough WC memebrs who know both United Church staff, and memebrs of the executive, that we can likely commincate with them privately , but they as individuals are unable to speak for the UCC as a whole. unless  the GCE has adopted a resolution, to authorise them to speak to a concern.  Likewise for example I know one staff member and 2 executive membrs, but I am unable to speak to them about specifics until we have a proposal, or at least the outlines of one. (Many other members of WC also know members of the exec and staff,  but they may be more suited to talk to them, since they do not have a communication disability that makes it difficult for me to do such things) 

We need  to find and post the times the Executive is meeting between now and June, to help us strategise. and understand what the deadlines will be for us.

I would encourage evryone to head over to : http://a56565.demo.invisionpower.com/topic/2-last-post/

You can create an account and give it a spin, It is one of many options for software.  But it is secure, cheap, and easy, so it meets all of my requirements.

It was commentary disguised as a technical point, and you're being an obtuse idiot again.

Yes, commentary -> why not just call the new place that which it will be.

I've been looking into vBulletin as an option.

Their demo/trial is only 3 days so I'll likely do it on a weekend (earliest would likely be Nov. 23-24 since this coming weekend is pretty full for me) when I have more time and just invite a few of you to join in rather than throwing it open.

Costs (in USD):

Software license:   $249 for just the software (including the vBulletin forum software and various blog/social features)

                             $399 if we want to offer their Android and iOS mobile apps (not a bad idea since I know some of us access the Cafe from tabs or phones at times)

Ongoing support: $199/year for live technical support; support through posting on their user forums is free. I would consider having this for at least the first year until the admins are fully up to speed. You can also do it month-to-month.

Installation assistance: $149 to have their techs remote to our server and do the basic installation for us

Unbranded install: $169 to remove the "Powered by vBulletin" tag from the board. I don't think it is a problem to have this showing but the option is there.

Of course, this is a software-only solution that assumes we can come up with the hosting (ie. someone with a server and Internet connection to put it on).

I've also contacted the admin on a vBulletin-based board I'm on to see if he has any suggestions/tips/recommendations in terms of using vBulletin and I'll see if he compared it to any other products or just went with it on reputation.

Mendalla

vBulletin used to be the gold standard in forums. I understand their latest has issues. It's also the most expensive option.

I think the platform choice we make is dependent upon the UCCan's decision about releasing the posts to us. If they will, then we can talk to a service about migration, or try to move it ourselves, depending on what tools are available.

The differences among the various boards are relatively few to the users. I would think it would be wise to choose a baord/software that has good reviews for technical support,for the admin,  and easy to operate and train various admins or moderators etc.

Pretty much, Alex. Even the free ones are way better than this Drupal 6 forums, from a useability standpoint.

My admin contact has, in fact, been avoiding the latest builds of vBulletin. Evidently it has gone downhill since changing hands. Given that it is one of the more expensive options, negative reviews are not a good thing.

He says that www.xenforo.com is from some of the original vBulletin team. It is cheaper (as long as you're okay with branded, they ding you hard for the unbranded version). Like vBulletin, the trial/demo is only 3 days so we can do an eval if interested but it will have to  be a fast, tightly focussed one.

In terms of other advice, he says the biggie is administration/moderation. You need to make sure someone can keep an eye on things pretty much 24x7. And it isn't trolls and spammers that are the biggest risk. He points out the risk of having someone posting child porn or other illegal materials that could lead to a run-in with law enforcement. You need to catch and report stuff like that fast to stay on the good side of the cops. Admittedly, some of the forums he runs are adult-content to start with so may be a bigger issue for him than for us.

Mendalla

Does free or low cost software that can import Drupal 6 (should WC release the archival data) exist?

Without knowing how the Drupal forum data is stored, it is hard to say. Depending on the database used and how well the database developer designed it it may be quite easy or brutally hard. The software would not necessarily have to specifically support Drupal forum import (that would just be the ideal), only import from whatever database platform Drupal is running on.

Mendalla

Yeah, Xenforo is getting all the buzz these days. The free MyBB is supposed to be pretty good, too.

Fr a hundred bucks, I'd get a service to do the migration. www.gconverter.com seem to do a decent job.

The deal I've floated to the UCCan is that we move the posts, the usernames, but not email addresses or private messages. I think that makes the most sense with regards to privacy issues.

Okay, so admin/moderator costs and software costs are important.

Does anyone have ideas regarding a budget to operate. manage and oversee a reincarnated WC?

This could help if someone wanted to apply for grant money.  Seriously.

Why do you have to make this endeavour look like a monumental exercise? I'm starting to feel that if we do pull this off for a couple hundred bucks, we should split a Nobel prize.

no chansen, I am trying to work up a grant, and I just need to get financial info, and a project to propose.  Iam a good grant writer, but I need information to make it happen.  And BTW, I have a really good record of making grants happen.

There need not be any admin or moderator costs. Admins can be volunteers (though a paid admin, even a part-time one, has its advantages) and mods definitely will be (they are on most boards that I hang out on). We likely need 2 admins and 3 or 4 mods (to ensure the broadest coverage).

Software costs are looking minimal (even vBulletin is under $500 unless we put on a lot of options).

The main cost is going to be hosting (a server to run the board and an Internet connection) and services to help with the conversion. We won't know those without doing some serious research.

Now, if we go with a "cloud" solution (prebuilt forum environment where hosting and software are all one charge), then there may be some admin built into that  (e.g. the provider likely does the backups and basic security) but forum admin (adding forums, approving user requests, etc.) would still be volunteer.

The short answer, RedHead, is that there isn't going to be a budget and timeline for this overnight. We have until June to get everything going so we have time to properly research this.

Mendalla

OK, that changes the picture from my post above this one. How firm do the costs need to be for the grant? Just budget pricing or does it need to be fairly firm?

Mendalla

Well, the succinct answer to writing a solid grant is that the project and budget match clearly.  It is quite astonishing to see how people throw together a grant applicaction, and it becomes easy to understand why efforts to obtain grant funds fail.

If we can make a case for WC, to pay for software, and to possibly hire people, then the corresponding budget will reflect existing RL costs at the time of submission (or grant competition deadline).  With a realistic, thoughtfully justified budget, granting bodies even approve a 10% fringe to address changes in costs, unforeseen expenses, etc once the grant funding is in play - i.e. awarded.

The key is to justify the budget with hard costs and explain how a project is governed/managed. Consequently it follows: how is funding managed.

Hey, at work, travelling home this weekend.

I am most tempted to go with a service provider and all we are admin/sconfigs of a cloud based solution, fully hosted: software as a service. 

We pay for the right to use it, which includes storage, standard support. Any extensions we pay for .  I do NOT want to get into hosting deals.

I would prefer to have some united church affiliation and hook into the united church (as compared to a separate standalone site).  I see a lot of possibilities that way with less risk.   Probably as I am united church.  I also value the ability to touch base with corporate on long-term directions, etc.

The forum  group have offered me a 10day demo. I would not want to do it until such time as we were prepared to do an intense beatup.  No point in just spinning up another site if people dont' have time to play.

The data content is a big deal to me and who has access. I like the idea of the migration of data without hook to accounts; however, there are IP's etc that would provide information....."it depends", i think in the details of the mechanics of the execution.

My aim is to have this cost peanuts. Lots of online forums exist where the total monthly cost of running the forum is $10. Ten bucks. Use a free forum like MyBB or phpBB, cheap hosting, and a stock template. Let's not complicate things. Wondercafe work despite being run on one of the worst forum platforms produced in the last ten years. $400/yr for vBulletin is overkill, imo. Of course, if importation of the existing posts works better with vBulletin, that changes things. That's why I'm asking the UCCan if they would be willing to transfer the public post content to us.

Once that question is answered, then we can move forward. Grants for a project that could cost $10/month? Don't waste your time.

Again, Drupal is a full Content Management System. It's a way of producing a website with dynamic content stored in a database, with a full host of ways to publish web pages with a forum on the side. We're talking about a simple forum now. No blogs, no church search, no groups (were they ever used?). Just keep it simple, keep it easy to navigate, and be a place where people can come and discuss what we always have.

Please, let's not go around trying to make this look daunting before we even know what we could inherit and how much storage and bandwidth we'll need.

? wait? i'm trying to make it look complicated?

I am not comfortable with someone hosting it on a server in their basement.

I want patch management on the site.

I'd like upgrades to software as it comes along being done by the "software as service" provider.

I'd like uccan oversight in some way.  I have confidence and an understanding of what the service and what the sense of relationshp was with the admins which is different than Chansen's.    

It's part of the uccan connectivity that keeps me here.

So, I am not in the spot where we need grant money or fulltime resources, however, I am also not looking at free.....

Fair enough. I'm just saying let's not start talking grant applications when we don't know the scope of what we need to do. It makes the problem look bigger than I think it is. That's all.

Okay.

I am done.  No more questions, and no more ideas I can offer to help.

All I'm saying is, please don't start scaring people. We need answers from the UCCan before se start trying to raise thousands of dollars. One step at a time.

Once some technical questions are answered, then we know what cash we'll need. Funding ideas and questions are not technical.

I've been having some password problems with my hosting account. I'm finally getting them sorted out. I could have a couple of different free forum instances going by tomorrow.

Just give a heads up Chansen when ready, I'll be happy to log on them and check them out.  I familiar with using the phpBB forums, a group I'm with uses that program.

So are you waiting for the UCCAN to come to you with those answers or is someone actually virtually making an appointment with someone in charge to ask specific questions? Emails can be ignored. It's harder to ignore a real person in ones office.

Emails are not being ignored

I will be reaching out to the powers that be next week and setting up a meeting

No one is being ignored, a dialogue has begun, and the fate of the content is something they will have to consider. I'm not expecting an immediate answer. We have time.

Test forum #1 on phpBB:

http://bit.ly/1hVnS3i

I'm working on one for Simple Machines Forum, also free. I may try MyBB (yep, free) before I'm done. The admin panel of phpBB takes some getting used to, but as you'll see, it doesn't scream "Free!" I don't think we need to pay for vBulletin or other forum software. These free forums are already better than what we're used to.

I love your descriptions of the various forums on your test site, chansen! Gave me a laugh.

Okay, here is an installation of MyBB. It seems much better to use than Simple Machines, and, for that matter, phpBB.

http://bit.ly/186tT9p

Yeah, I have fun with forum descriptions.