It's not in Toronto, and for that reason I'm out.

So, if it was in Toronto you'd attend?

I, too, will have to remain supportive from afar. As a single, straight woman - 3600km is simply too far for me to travel for a conference that isn't really geared towards people like me.

focus_gay_family,

looks nifty!  I look forward to LGBT2SQ getting longer and longer as time goes by.  Can't wait for Transpecies operations :3

So if there are no "dumb questions," is this an appropriate place to ask a question?

What does the term "two spirit" mean exactly?

The rest of the terms I do understand.

Two spirited is a term used by First Nations people who if they were white might mean gay, or Trans. However it means more than gay or Trans, and has a spiritual  context in that it describes someone who has a female and male spirit. 

This is a cut and paste that I received on Facebook. Two-spirited The Two-spirited person is a native tradition that anthropologists have been able to date to some of the earliest discoveries of Native artifacts. Much evidence indicates that Native people, prior to colonization and contact with European cultures, believed in the existence of three genders: the male, the female and the male-female gender, or what we now call the Two-spirited person. The term Two-spirited, though relatively new, was derived from interpretations of Native languages used to describe people who displayed both characteristics of male and female. Traditionally, the Two-spirited person was one who had received a gift from the Creator, that gift being the privilege to house both male and female spirits in their bodies. The concept of Two-spirited related to today's designation of gays, lesbians, bisexual and transgender persons of Native origins. Being given the gift of two-spirits meant that this individual had the ability to see the world from two perspectives at the same time. This greater vision was a gift to be shared with all, and as such, Two-spirited beings were revered as leaders, mediators, teachers, artists, seers, and spiritual guides. They were treated with the greatest respect, and held important spiritual and ceremonial responsibilities. The arrival of the Europeans was marked by the imposition of foreign views and values on Native spirituality, family life and traditions. The missionary churches' views on sexuality, for example, created many new taboos. Many traditions, including that of the Two-spirited were eradicated or at least driven underground from many (but not all) tribes of North America. Once honored, some of today's Two-spirited people have been shamed, beaten, killed, isolated and driven from their homes. Dr. Terry Tafoya, a sexologist, storyteller and diversity educator from the Taos Pueblo Nation has warned, "our communities cannot survive if we cut off parts of ourselves". Along with others he has called for the restoration of the inclusion of Two-spirited people back into the circle of original belonging. It is not an accident that Two-spirited people are once again emerging in their communities at the same time and in the same way that the drum, the pipe, the sweat, the medicines and other sacred aspects of community and cultural life are returning. As a result of the impact of colonization, most Two-spirited people, their families, and the knowledge keepers in their communities today, hold little or no knowledge of the many rich and diverse traditions which recognized, valued and benefited from the special gift these individuals had been given. In consequence, Two-spirited people are not able to take their rightful place in their communities. This is a loss to all Native people.  

I'm a little surprised that the word dumb was used instead of stupid (especially since this is a 'saying'), especially on the website.  Is dumb no longer considered to be an offensive term?

As a person with a developmental disability, I prefer 'foolish" But dumb and stupid are so widely used by others, that when I see it I insert "foolish". Language can make one always angry. In this case it is not so offensive since stupid is refering to a question not a person.

Just by chance I heard this on CBC radio this morning - Vision Quest - talking about Two Spirited - click on link below to listen to show...

CBC Radio

Would there be an issue if instead of saying "There are no dumb questions" it was "There are no retarded questions" or "There are no gay questions"?

I am going to try very hard to attend this event.....

Rita

I don't believe that "dumb" has any other meaning in common usage.  I am aware that historically it had another meaning (one who couldn't speak), but I don't think that meaning is at all in current usage.  Certainly, you'd have to look hard to find anyone who uses it.

Gay and Retarded are different.  If you ask a random person on the street what "dumb" means, virtually all of them will say stupid.  It has no other real meaning.

I had been taught from a fairly young age that it was an offensive word.  It has been used to bully those who cannot speak, or even those who are deaf with speech that isn't typical.

Gay, retarded and dumb are all used commonly by many people as an insult.  I didn't realize that dumb had lost it's other meaning.  Are there that many people who are really ignorant of the term deaf & dumb?

chemgal,

Aren't words fun?

For me dumb isn't an emotionally icky word (the only time I heard dumb in the usage of can't speak was in terms of RPGs), stupid is stronger, ignorant has a slight emotional effect.  Retarded was used in my elementary school; I don't hear it much now.  Fool and poltroon, alas, I don't hear at all.

Whenever I read the word gay in the usage of an insult online (I hear it rarely offline) I try to interpret it as the usage of 'awesome' and try to start a convo with the person who wrote it and see what happens.  Usually I've found they stop.

Why do you ask?

Matt's take is how the word is used in common usage-  "like don't be so dumb" aka stupid.

Probably because she's trying to determine if you are just acting obtuse of if that's an integral part of your personality.

What does the word obtuse mean?

Thanks for the info on the Conference. I hope to go. I had not heard of it before seeing it here.

The usage of dumb in casual conversation is something I've given up commenting on.  It just surprises me it would be used in the publicity for a conference.  Especially when the conference is geared towards people who have had to deal with slurs, I thought they would be a little more sensitive to it.

Pan, you could say the same about retarded and gay though, but they are not acceptable.  Many people who use the word gay to mean uncool, stupid, etc. do not mean it in an offensive way, but people find it offensive because of why it was initially used that way.  Same thing with dumb; people who are unable to speak = stupid people.

I realize that there are words that really have lost the offensive meaning (black, lame, etc) but I didn't think that dumb was there quite yet.

To the OP (or any other organizers), I'd love to hear why dumb was used instead of stupid in the wording for this conference.  Otherwise, I'll leave this topic to what it was intended for.  If someone is still interested in discussing dumb, please start another topic.

I hope anyone who attends has a great time!

chemgal,

even given your usage of the word, within the phrase "There Are No Dumb Questions" it becomes a positive, right? :3

"There are no idiotic questions"

"There are no retarded questions"

"There are no stupid questions"

"There are no ignorant questions"

"There are no foolish questions"

You can't please all the people, all the time.  And those who aren't pleased are responsible for their being not pleased, though that doesn't prevent them from trying to blame words, events, etc outside themselves.

chemgal, try conducting a simple test.  Doable on FB even.  Ask people to simply say what they think the three words mean.  Retarded will, I guarantee, yield answers of BOTH stupid and mentally handicapped.  Most people will know both.  Gay will yield answers of BOTH bad and homosexual.  Most people will know both.  Dumb will yield, almost exclusively, answers of stupid.  If you ask "do you know that dumb means unable to speak", I'm sure people would say "oh, yeah, I think I've heard that before."  But it won't be what most people associate with the word.

Think of it like this - when someone calls me retarded meaning stupid, what they are INTENTIONALLY saying is: "you are as stupid as the mentally handicapped are perceived to be."  When someone calls me gay meaning bad, what they are INTENTIONALLY saying is: "you are as bad/wrong as homosexuals are perceived as being."

When someone calls me dumb meaning stupid, what they are INTENTIONALLY saying is: "you are stupid."

I understand that for those who are aware of the former meaning of the word (is that meaning even existing in common usage?  I've never heard it), there will be a perception of a slur against those with speech impairments.  But that will not be in the mind of the speaker.  The mixed meanings ARE in the minds of people who say retarded or gay.

To me, saying that dumb shouldn't be used because it is calling people who can't speak stupid is like suggesting that people are suggesting a bonfire when they call someone a faggot.  The historical meaning, while it may be known, no longer actually exists.  The same is not true of the words retarded and gay (although retarded is fading).

One final thought - the word stupid has the following origins:

When you said, "It's not in Toronto, and for that reason I'm out," to me it sounded like the main, if not only, reason you would not be attending this conference is because of its' geographical distance from you. So, what I want to know is this: if this exact conference (same theme with the same speakers speaking on the same topics) was to be held at a location in Toronto that you could easily access and was to be held at a time when you had nothing else going on - would you go?

This is an honest question, and by way of demonstrating that I will give you my answer. If the conference were to be held in Victoria I would ask if they needed any volunteers. I am not a homosexual person and I am not married to anyone - and have no kids of my own. I am not a member of the target audience, but I would want to show my support for this event. Events like these always need volunteers, so I would donate my time so that others could experience the conference more fully. As for what I would volunteer to do, well that would depend on what was needed - but I could see myself doing behind the scenes work like making coffee and doing dishes - or maybe doing something in the office.

RevMatt, if the meaning has actually changed (as lame is no longer seen as offensive) then I can see that being more acceptable.  I just didn't think that dumb had lost the negative connotation already.  I'm not within the older half on this site, so I'm just surprised that a word I was taught as being offensive (without having someone who was deaf or non-speaking in the family) has changed without ever hearing any controversy about it (as you do hear about the terms Blacks or the N-word).

Inanna, I'll agree that the message overall is still a positive one.  If retarded was used instead though, you can bet some people would be offended.  People tend to be much more PC with retarded than dumb.

Personally, I think it would have been interesting if they used gay instead.  It would probably bring up some interesting conversations :)

But again I have to ask "why do you ask?" Of what importance is it to you whether I would go or not? You haven't really explained that. Thanks.

I am asking because I am curious - that is the only reason. Is it important to me to know? In the grand scheme of things the answer is no. You felt to say that because the conference is not in Toronto you would not be attending. My curious mind wants to know if that is indeed the only reason you will not be attending. I await your answer.

BTW - Chansen was putting words into my mouth - words and motives that I had not intended. I will do my best to read your answer without judgement.

Someone who would ask what it means and not simply google it for themselves.

Inanna,

Give up on the idea of having a tail in this world, it ain't gunna happen!

I suppose there's always the possibility of reincarnation.

Perhaps one day my descendents will see an inannagaroo hopping across a paddock?

Word meanings changing -

I know there are two meanings for the word "dumb" but one seems to be out of general use.  It seems to me that I would use the word 'mute' for someone who couldn't speak.   Isn't there a series of books out now entitled 'Word Perfect for Dummies" "Internet for Dummies"  etc.?      To me, the phrase "There are no dumb questions"  would mean, don't be afraid to ask any questions you may have no matter how silly or misinformed they may seem.

On this thread, I've learned that 'gay' can mean homosexual or 'bad'.   I don't remember hearing the word used as 'bad' before.   It could be my age, but until recent years I always thought 'gay' meant "happy', 'carefree', 'young-at-heart'.   As in the old song - "And all of the (cotton pickers) are happy and gay'  or in the phrase 'the gay little children were skipping in the rain'.  

Words do change.

I realize that you were not addressing me - but this is a public forum.  I believe anybody can answer any post. 

You said that you were not going because the event was not in Toronto.  We all know you live in Toronto - you have told us over and over.  Many of us would be surprised if you were interested in attending this event - it doesn't seem to fit with your interests and personality that you have shown on other posts.    So it is natural to wonder if you would be attending, if it wasn't for the location.     If you hadn't thought it significant, and that people might be interested, I don't know why you would bring it up?    If you aren't willing to enter into a conversation about your decision, or answer a simple question that others might be wondering about, why did you bring it up in the first place?  

Of course one would never use retard - we have learned not to do that just as the civil rights movement made certain words unusable in  public conversation - social conventions do actually make us more careful about use of words which are negative or put downs -  There is not a one to one use of retard as a replacement for dumb in adult conversation but our children may use it in the play ground until they learned not to-  in adult conversation I remember when a friend who was mute is family used dumb but that soon fell to the wayside, thankfully.  However Matts point sitil stands - when we say there are no dumb questions we know it means stupid.

Just as it was pointed out there are some of us who when we hear gay we think of songs that are positive or someone is happy, Gay is has taken over that sense so it is a positive term for those who are positive about gayness.

Words do have contexts and the group who run this event are sensitive - so they knew what they were doing in using no dumb questions -

Morning Calm,

You are being asked because this is a site where people relate to other people or converse with them or post in reaction to what another has said or they thought they said....

Others may want to get to know you, your thoughts, emotions, feelings.... They may also be trying to figure out how to respond.

They may ask because they are trying to see if something has changed because it seems out of character and sarcasm is hard to pick up online.  They may ask because there are those who feel there is a conversation taking place that they are not a part of, so they say something to be part of it. If they know that, then they may respond with engaging them in conversation (if not in that thread, another)

There are also those who speak ambiguously or cryptically because they are insecure and like to create that in others. There are those who like to create chaotic situations rather than simply ignore an opening for chaos. There are those who interject something, anything, because they are self-centred and think everything is about them. There are those who have an agenda, dropping something, to redirect conversation. There are trolls. There are those who say something they know is unwelcome or unwarranted so that they can get a reaction and get a ticket on the victimization ride. There are those who like the "pity-poor-me" ride and like being misunderstood or unappreciated. There are those who like being sullen and look for reasons to be. There are those who fluctuate between openly hostile and contrite. There are those who are passive aggressive.... etc...

So, they ask for the same reason anyone asks anything, because they are wondering and wanted to know....

Do you have an answer? Or do they get more of the same, "why do you ask, What does it matter"....?

Either way, they get an answer -whether it is your reasons, thoughts, beliefs or motives.

"You take a shit in the sandbox, you can't get mad, you made it into a litter box"
~ a cat

"If we keep putting the loonies in, we cannot complain the kids are still riding the same hobby horse"
 ~ some person in the mall

If we ask someone who is homosexual, the word "gay" may be offensive. To someone else, it may mean "lame". It may have once meant "happy".

The words "lunatic" or  "insane" or "nuts" may be offensive to someone with a mental disease or disorder. To someone else, they may say they mean someone "incapacitated"

To me, it often does not matter what I think of the word. It does not matter how common it is.

I do not like hearing someone say someone "jewed" them down. Ignorance is not much of an excuse. Common usage does not make it feel much better. Especially once you are told it comes from Jews being stereotyped as cheap. I may get that you use it because it is common usage. I hope you get that it is still offensive.

I therefore understand another feeling the same about the word "gypped" though it is commonly used. It comes from Gypsy and the stereotype that they cheated.

I feel the same about "cotton pickin". It originated as a racial slur and I understand people saying they feel it is racist whether it is commonly used "that cotton pickin (damn) thing" or not. It was intended to hurt and malign and it still does.

Saying "deaf and dumb" about someone who does not hear or speak is outdated and offensive. Being profoundly hearing impaired and that their speaking has been equated with being stupid.

I may use it because it is common, it does not mean I am not open to having someone say they find it offensive. I, knowing the history of the word, would likely agree with them that I got how they could be offended whether I meant that offense or not.

Common usage, to me,  means squat when people are hurt.

Is anyone answering, whether "dumb" can be offensive, profoundly hearing impaired?

How do folks feel about the word "Queer"? My generation (50+) don't really like it - however, the younger generation seem to be fine with it.  "Queer" takes in the whole acronym (LGBT2SQ).  I see "Queer" is only used once on the Conference website.

I use the word queer or lesbian Jobam (and I'm 50). It took me a while to embrace the word queer, but now prefer it. For me it is all encompassing.  I never use the word gay to describe myself or other women. So the title of the conference interests me, It doesn't resonate for me personally. That being said -- I think it's great that you are having this conference. Hope it is a wonderful event for all.

Before anyone reads this, I am queer.....

I tend to not like our words. Lesbianism sounds a disease.

Gay sounds so damn happy it makes me sick or it sounds like I need to wear a pink boa with a Hawaiian shirt.

I struggle with homosexual without hearing a lisp or 5 syllables ho-mo-sex-u-als.

Most terms do not embrace us, other than queer.

I mean, really, is my wife straight, not, or bi seeing as I am who I am?

And again the generation gap.  It took me awhile before I realized that 'queer' no longer means 'strange' or 'different'.   as in "what is that queer noise in the basement?'   'Where did you get that queer idea about a ghost in the woodlot?'   'That was a really queer book - it didn't turn out at all like I expected.'   'Your bracelet is so queer.  Where did you get it?  What is it made of?'

I would prefer not to answer, and even your curiosity does not give me sufficient reasons to do so. I'm a private person and like to keep certain opinions to myself. Let's just move along.

MorningCalm, if that's the case, maybe you shouldn't have bothered posting your original comment.

"Obtuse" is too generous.

I was politely declining an invitation which had been offered. I take it you don't approve.

All this sensitivity about word usage makes me feel nervous........

It is often assumed by those who know the "correct usage" that those who use a different term are being deliberately provocative. It can sometimes mean that, rather than being provocative, the speaker is ignorant of the latest usage.

For example, until I joined Wondercafe I was familiar with the terms, gay, lesbian, bisexual. Thus, when I saw LGBT used here, my first thought was "what does T stand for?"

Now I see 2SQ added - and I'm ignorant of the meaning.

Can someone enlighten me?

When I was young the term "queer" was used pejoratively to describe homosexuals of both sexes - now I see that many lesbians actually like the term?

Perhaps there are many others out there that are, like me, more confused and ignorant -  rather than being deliberately offensive?

The Q is for queer, and the 2S is I'm guessing two spirit, as described above.

As someone who has been involved in dis/ability activism for a very long time and who has many dis/abled friends, there is no way that I would attend a conference with such an ableist word in the theme.

Yes for most people it most likely means "stupid" but it's the root that counts and the effect it has on marginalised communities. 

I refuse to attend or support any event that clearly doesn't take into account the realities, experiences and sacredness of our dis/abled LGBTTIQQ2 folks..

Thank you, Seeler, for saying this more eloquently than I ever could have!

SG - you have such a wonderful way with words. Thank you for taking the time to post this. What you said in the first three paragraphs really rang especially true for me.

While I am disappointed that you have chosen not to answer my question, I respect your decision. Please know that my motive was simply to gain a greater understanding of the person you are. I hope you were not offended by my questioning, that was not my intent. What Seeler said so eloquently in her post was really what I was curious about.

Thanks for the flowers!

"There Are No Dumb Questions" - yes it can imply stupid - but what about the unspoken questions - the ones people are uncomfortable asking - where a question might be asked but the words won't come or there is no "safe space" to ask it .. what about the 14 year old who can't ask questions due to their family rejection -I doubt these questions would be stupid?

I think the idea the conference is trying to get a across is that no question is without merit.  I don't think the intent of the "question" was to imply stupid.