The website is not asking just UCCanada members for donations, but rather anyone who cares to contribute. Why then have you written as above?

Hi Dcn. Jae,

Probably because the link is to a The United Church of Canada donation page set up by the United Church of Canada Philanthropy Unite placed here on WonderCafe.ca which is a United Church of Canada enterprise by somebody from The United Church of Canada's General Council Office.

So the ask is directed at members of The United Church of Canada; however, if the Fellowship of Evangelical Baptists doesn't have something similar you can still access the donation page and you can even get a receipt for a charitable donation.

Some people would go to the Canadian Red Cross page for a similar set up.

I'm fairly confident that those who put together such donation pages don't care where the money is actually coming from.

Grace and peace to you.

John

I get what you're saying revjohn, but the GCO person didn't even invite UCCanada adherents to participate, only the denominations members - think of that.

Maybe your Baptist church should take some initiative, Dcn. Jae, in terms of donations, rather than your always bashing the UCC for acting quickly.

Donations can be made by us directly to our fellow churches in the areas affected.

However, this isn't thread about me and my denomination. This thread is about the United Church of Canada. I'm simply trying to include as many UCCanada people as possible in the effort to help.

Seriously jae - you think your comment is HELPFUL??  It's transparently not - nor are many of the similar such posts you leave here.  Tiresome really. 

People like you and me use langauge in a different ways than do the majority. What to us is a wrong way, or inaccurate way to use langage is overlooked by others.

SO I have learned to translate "inaccurate language". WHich means I ussually have to just ask, "Can you clarify what you mean?"

I suspect that  the poster was refering to UCC members, adherants, and Jacks (or Jills)

A UCC Jack is one who hangs around UCC memembrs, or participates in UCC programs, but does not believe in the UCC theology.

Thus I believe that the  invited to UCC Folks, would include all people who visit or particpate in Wondercafe,  Including you. I do not believ they intended to exclude you or poeople like you in the invitation, 

I have never heard of Jack and Jills, Alex. Anyone else?

People like you and me Alex? In what ways do you think we are similar Alex that other people are not?

Makes sense.

Ok Alex, thank you for the clarification.

There is only one way I know for sure, but I suspect a second.  

One is the way we use language. It is more literal/exact  than the way others do. Words prescribe specific meanings and causes us to be percieved as hostile or blunt because we say what we mean, without coaching it in vague "diplomatic" language. We say what we mean. And like evrybody, we start out expecting people to use language like we do. Howevr because we are i a minority (cicra 5%) are more likely to misunderstand or be misunderstood.

The opther ting we may have in common, is that we have been burnt by the way ministers in the UCC are trained to use language.  Typically they speak  diplomatically with broad stroke,s in order to reach the greatest numbers. However that way of using language is maddening to me, because it is also vague, and thus we can see (when others do not) the lack of real meaning. 

When we try to speak like they do, it  feels to us that  we are being dishonest or deceptive. 

Hi Dcn. Jae

Apart from a few privileges here and there The United Church of Canada rarely refers to a two tier membership structure.  For the most part, particularly in the case of emergency appeals, there is no platform for members, non-resident members, or adherents.  It is all the same revenue stream.

If an adherent of the United Church thought that the message from whomever UCC-GCO was prohibitive I would be very much surprised.  Further, if somebody decided to withhold money to those affected by the flood simply because they are not addressed specifically as adherents how they are addressed is the least of their problems.

Grace and peace to you.

John

I do not believe that is the problem. Perhaps if the language is not clear a person will funnel the money elsewhere.

For example, I would never give money to AIDS service organisations in Africa that promoted their theology along with the medicine they provide.  Nor did I ever give money to a certain  Catholic  organisation (Development and Peace), because while they did not use there funds to promote an theology among the recipients, their fundraising and conscious raising were tied together and based upon an appeal to Catholic Theology,  

However I give money to other organisations fighting AIDS  and speak in public as a PHA on behalf of a charity(Stop AIDS Now) that is largely run by Muslims and is Islamic in mission. However it neither uses theology as a basis of fundraising, nor when providing help do they promote anything other than life, 

Likewise I imagine many people want to know if a United Church fund wants money from non UCC, or if it uses funds to promote UCC theology. So while  what is clear language to some, may not be to others, and can lead to misunderstanding and the need for clarification.  

Hi Alex,

I strongly doubt that adherents wanting to offer support to the residents of Alberta affected by the flood are going through other channels to donate funds simply because the notification is addressed to members.

If that is the case then the most important thing is not which route the money takes to get to those residents in Alberat but that it actually gets to those residents in Alberta.  And to reiterate, if you follow the links all the way through to make a donation you will not be asked to prove that you are a member and nothing will prevent you from donating even if you aren't a member.

I'm not sure how the two are related Alex.  I suspect that the Catholic organization in question doesn't invest a great deal of time or attention in grooming you as a donor.  This notification of special appeal is not an attempt to groom anyone as a donor either, it is simply a notification of how members (adherents as well) can direct their support to the residents of Alberta who are affected by the flood.

I would be surprised if some Church flunky on the other end of the process was dangling handfuls of cash in front of those affected and telling them that all they had to do was recite the new creed or name 5 moderators at random.

The United Church of Canada does not, to the best of my knowledge, look beyond its own for funding purposes.  In the event of special appeals any money donated through us will go to where it was intended.  The United Church of Canada also does not, to the best of my knowledge, make recipients jump through hoops of our own choosing to get the help we have promised.  That is one of the reasons we have moved from the missionary model to the partner model.

Anyone outside of the Church not knowing how we operate probably was never much interested in donating money through us.  Dcn. Jae follows a link to a newsrelease on a denominational website and is then shocked and appalled that it targets, as its audience, members of that very denomination.  What nerve eh?

Grace and peace to you.

John

I was addressing the appeal on Wc and not in church. I be;iev Jae was as well.

Perhaps you misunderstood, The rest of my reply was an explaination as to why someone may not give to the UCC flood fun because they beleive the appeal was noy addressed to them. but by choose a different fund they are not being resentful, but may figure their money is better pllaced elsewhere.  

Howevr my message and your reply seems to me to illustrate how language often can have multiple meanings, and so while full of menaing to the writer and many readers, will have so many possible meanings that some readers will get the  intent of the writer, or will find it empty of meaning to to the multple possible meanings.

Thus it is a good idea if one is not sure of the meaning of a statement to ask for a clarification.

Also perhaps you are correct as to Jae's feelings or motive, but to me it is not clear, and thus the same message from him has dufferent meaning to each of us.  

I understood that Jae was just suggesting that UCC appeals on Wondercafe, coujld perhaps solicited one or more donors if it 's language was different.  ALmost as if he was just suggesting a edit. 

Thanks everyone. I had a concern about this "member" language too, and have flagged it with my colleagues at the General Council Office. Obviously, everyone is invited to give to this important cause and support people affected by the flooding (Dcn. Jae, you too!). This has been the standard language in GCO emergency appeals, I think left over from the days communications mostly was limited to United Church congregations. However, now - especially through social media - the reach of the communications is much broader and the language should be changed to reflect that, imo.

I am still waiting for an answer especially since we are talking about language.

I have heard of people who have lapsed in membership/ participation in the LDS Church referred to as "Jack Mormons", but I have never heard it outside that denomination.

It has been used by Mormons, and Masons to indicate people who hang out with them without adopting there beliefs, but are familar with or active in Mormon / Masonic culture..

At first it was also used to describe non Mormons who were allies.  Another use as well is  it to describe full Mormon members who secretly do not believe MOrmon doctrine, but who like the culture so remian members.

I have friends who have called me a Jack Catholic due to hanging around with SOcial JUstice Catholics. and going to Catholic Schools, as well as having dated mostly Catholics.

So when I went to look for a term to describe people who do  not accept the UCC belief system(s) but who use WC or UCC run programs without being an adherant I came up with UCC Jack  (or a UCC Jill,) after not being able to find an existing word.

Exact language tends to not work out so well if you're making up the definitions and not information others that's what you're doing.    Joking!

I'm just a little amused by the irony in this thread.

the philosopher that i am wants to clarify and define all terms to see if a disagreement is actual not just a difference in definition of a word.

the realist in me understands that is not usually possible in casual conversations

but the christan in me wants to make peace, so still strives to understand how others use speech

The autisstic in me wants to avoid being laughed at

the comedian in me laughs at me as life is full of misunderstanding other peoples misunderstandings. a la I Love Lucy

BTW the definition of UCC in the Urban Dictionary is UnControllable Chuckle

I put money in the offering plate on Sunday marked "AB Flood Relief".

Actually, Alex, in this thread, I saw the Christian in you reaching out to find a point or two of similarity with Jae, from you are quite far apart on many issues.

Yep,me too. Props to you Alex.