Can you be specific on where you have been hurt? Or where I have been mean?

It would also be helpful to understand what power you presume that i have.

Kimmio, when I apologize for something it is sincere. That implies that i know what I did, that i was in the wrong, and that I am taking actions to stop it from occurring again.

If i am expected to do so, then vague references to being mean won't cut it

Do you have tools to use private info to mess with people without their knowledge if you were really pissed off? Would you be vindictive, honestly? Would you block me if we got into an argument, with no recourse? I feel like you dislike me that much. You hurt me with the prostitution thread you know what you said and now when you speak to me with "umm..." rhetorical questions it's condescending, uncomfortable and just rubs me the wrong way.

Well, so had tools to mess with people. It isn't hard for any user to bother with folks. I could create a sockpuppet, befriend you on how an Pinga is. Then, once I had your trust, use it against you. I wouldn't do that or any other unethical item with my skills

If I accused you privately- even after I apologized to you for being wrong- as I found out it will also be dealt with publicly so what's the difference?

Vindictive, nope. Honestly -honesty to a fault

Block. Moderators make decisions re block. Admins act on them. The exception to that is individuals banned for life trying to get in or spammers. In my professional life is that I don't ask and do. I put controls in place and design roles to ensure such controls. If i or any other moderator were to take action on an item they were personally involved in, then the council would need to review and take action

First, I don't recollect what i said. It was a long thread with accusations about the male population if i remember correctly. If you wish to name an item, then please give specifics

You pretty much left the conversation saying near the end that me and people like me (so you were trying to get around appearing to attack me) "carry the weight of sex workers murders" which was hands down the meanest harshest thing anyone has ever said to me. I've been called a names but noone's ever said something so mean to me- and I spent the whole thread upset because it was so personal,but you showed no empathy, and you still attacked me later like that. That's why I don't trust you until you apologize. I regret the whole thread. Nevertheless I am still hurt.

I stand by that comment.

Every woman standing on a dark corner, alone, without protection is held there in part by those who oppose their right to be a prositute.

If that is a challenge for you to consider, so be it

And I stand by mine. I don't trust you because you can't humble your damn self. You might as we have called me a murderer- that's how bad it was. Your opinion on prostitution aside your words to me were wrong because it was a personal topic and you had no empathy for me as a person you were talking to. And you have no concept of that. Or you just don't give a damn. You...are a self righteous uncaring bitch.

Kimmio, i have sat and been friends with the mother, aunt, daughter, and son of a woman killed as a prostitute in the most ugly case that has occurred in this country from the east side. From the time of missing, to protests to arrests and finding dna. My caring for her and them and the other women outweighs your sensitivities re my position

Okay, you two. Settle down. I am not a mod here but this is getting rather heated and should be taken private or to it's own thread.

This is exactly where a mod would and should step in on WC2 and, frankly, I would be inclined to lock the thread and throw warnings at both of you. Alas, we aren't there yet.

And for those who might wonder, no, I'm not kidding. I would warn Pinga just as I would any other user. We aren't exempt from mod action.

Mendalla

Mendella, happy to be warned, but for which part? Probably the last quote? Or would it be an excessive post warning

Note: private is not an option for me. I did request a thread but was turned down

Hi Kimmio,

You don't believe there is a conspiracy.  I don't believe there is a conspiracy.  Everyone else will have to answer for themselves.  There are, and have been, suggestions in the past of conspiracy and as such that means at least those who make such suggestions do believe in them.

Which is fair.  I was addressing Dcn.Jae.

None of us here are immune to being picked on.  There are times when all of us have been at the ugly end of disrespect and a lack of decency.  How one reacts when one finds one's self in that place may or may not help to smooth things out.

Sometimes we can be our own worst enemies.

At present it has nothing to do with others trusting him.  Most of the comments spring out of what appears to be his obvious distrust of others.

I have accused Dcn.Jae of things.  I definitely choose my words.  Yes it will impact trust.  It is not without risk to myself.  No matter what kind of cess-pool people think WonderCafe.ca to be I have never experienced that it is a community which is absolutely without limit.  Limits can certainly be pushed a long way and some can push further than others.

I suspect that is only so because of trust that has been built before hand.

Whatever trust I may have earned in this place is not going to last one second if I start behaving in a manner that is alien.

I make accusations.  I choose my words.  I am also willing to dialogue around those words and those accusations and when I am convinced that I have spoken in error I am prepared to do what is necessary.

I agree with you.

What I said was "more fodder for your conspiracy engine."  I have not said that you are a conspiracy theorist.  I cannot watch words you choose to put into my mouth.

Dcn.Jae has demonstrated with his own posts that he feels folk here are united against him.  Other days he claims to think no such thing.  I suspect it is more a matter of emotion and not thinking before posting.

Well for that to happen we each need to take responsibility for our parts.  I have never not taken responsibility for what I have posted.

Grace and peace to you.

John

Kimmio

Really let it go.

That prostitution thread was quite a While ago. It is unhealthy to hold those feelings so strongly for so long.

If this site makes you carry those feelings all this time, then you should back away.
.
I remember the thread and I remember that you felt picked on. That most of us posting were in favour of some sort of law protecting workers and that you were in favour of laws penalizing johns.
.
The laws about prostitutes, or in this case, lack of laws is contentious but you can't let someone's comments to you have such a big affect on you.
.

I'd have to read over the Code, but there's been some fairly heated words both ways and it's a serious derail that's tending to a flame war. In the end, this is one of those situations where it might be best to just post a warning in the thread without using personal sanctions (unless things continue) but I would hope a mod wouldn't leave it as is.

And there, folks, is an example of why we need a good mod team. There are judgement calls.

Mendalla

I'm just going to point something out here.

If I used admin rights against someone in a dispute, there would be a log of it. As soon as Mendalla or Pinga found out, I would expect to be locked out of the site. Period. Full stop.

It's not a rule. It's common sense. After all the sweat equity and financial investment in WC2, none of the three of us would allow one of us to ruin the goodwill of the community by breaking trust with the group.

Same thing if Mendalla used admin rights over someone because of a dispute. He'd be wondering what hit him. Same thing for Pinga. I could have her frozen out in under a minute.

Same thing, really, with mods. Although we may have to allow for a learning curve there. You don't use mod rights in your own disagreement. Let another mod handle it. I hope that's obvious.

That said, after consideration, I don't think I should have to walk on eggshells. I have no intention to use admin rights to influence arguments or harass people, not because Pinga and Mendalla will lock me out, but mostly because I wouldn't do that, and also because that's how you lose arguments, and lose them badly. If I think I'm right (and I usually do), the last thing I'm going to do is undermine my own credibility by abusing admin rights.

If you don't believe that, I can't help you.

Good!

Not so good...

No, not good. But noone else dares to say it- everybody claps when Pinga's bitchy.

Done voting .

I don't think you would. I'm not saying Pinga would go that far, but she has been what I consider vindictive with some of her posts. And she has pointed out how lucky she is to have powerful tools. She's the person here who's said the most hurtful things to me- and she's the person with the most power to lay a heavy and do something just because she can. I want to get along with her and not feel like I'm going to work for the powerful boss who treats me badly whose feet I have to kiss or else...right or wrong, she gives off the impression that that's how she rolls.

Nope, we just don't agree with you that she's being bitchy. I think most of us think you're reading that bitchiness into her posts.

I think Pinga writes very straightforward, like I do, but sadly, without my sense of humour. You can decide for yourself if that's good or bad, but it's not bitchy.

Perception is everything. One person sees in Pinga a self righteous uncaring bitch. Many others here, including me to a growing extent, see a confident logically-thinking leader.

Kimmio believes deeply that it's important in life to be humble, caring, and kind. Those are also strong qualities.

It's sad that the two are not getting along, because they are both fairly wonderful.

It is. Denying that what she said was hurtful and telling me to suck it up is super bitchy of the bitchiest. We? You mean you? Is there a consensus? I don't expect anyone else to admit out loud that Pinga can be a bitch when she wants to be.

I would prefer to get through this stuff before we get to wc2.  Here I am simply a poster.  There, if anything, my hands are tied more due to my role.  It is much easier to be a poster.   It is one of the hard parts of having a role, peeople will look you to differently. Sucks, but it is true.  Ask a doctor at a party, or a cop at a bar.

if a new thread is recommended, i will start one

Hi All,

An aside.

As a thinking type I frequently have to face the allegation that I am cold-hearted.

I find the allegation to be ignorant.  It would be just as ignorant for me to allege that feeling types are soft in the head.  So I don't make such allegations.

I believe that during my time here I have demonstrated an ability to feel emotion very deeply.

I also know from the private side of my life that my family would dissolve into hysterical laughter if the suggestion were brought to them that I have no feelings (which is what is meant by cold-hearted).

The problem, as near as I can tell, comes from feeling types who are not satisfied that they have had proper access to my emotional side.  Why they feel entitled to that side of me or why it is somehow more valuable than my thinking side is something I am not privy to.

At minimum I feel confident saying that in the middle of conflict claiming a thinker is cold-hearted or a feeler is soft in the head works against peaceful resolution.

Grace and peace to you.

John

Hi lastpointe,

Can I say that this particular use of my given name is the most disturbing one?

Yes, haha, my name is also used as slang for a toilet.

Toilet or toity was one of my wife's nicknames for me.  I called her sewer.  Not because she takes my crap but rather because she sewed all the time.

Anyway as irritating as being equated with a toilet can be constantly being referenced as a prostitute'c customer is worse.

And when you look forward to letters addressed to occupant rather than the ordinary Dear John . . .  you know you have it rough.

I know you aren't responsible for the convention and I'm not trying to blame you for my negative reaction to the convention.

Just saying. . . .

Grace and peace to you.

John

@Dcn.Jae - explain how being humble, caring and kind equates with calling someone a self righteous uncaring bitch.  Personally, I think Kimmio should be given a time out/ban for breaking the Rules of Conduct.

Get to know Jae, John. Everyone who picks on him. Get to know him. I am a thinker and a feeler. I feel and think a lot about it. I think about how people feel and why. And I don't have a lot of respect for people being brash just because they can be. I am generally someone who likes to advocate for the underdog- even if their opinions don't always agree with mine than to pile on and make it worse. I would make a terrible mod myself though because I get very upset when I see people mistreated. I can take a lot of abuse but the prostitution thread went over the top abusive considering the amount of personal stuff I disclosed. Went right over people's heads that it was hurting me. And Pinga just had to have her say. It was brutal. And that people never cared and still don't care and dogpile on some of the most vulnerable people in this place upsets me.

Like I'm the first person who's said bitch here. Any worse than calling someone an idiot? How about practically calling someone a murderer because they oppose prostitution? Is that worthy of a ban? Now you're being vindictive Inukshiuk. It's not about you...and I wanted a private discussion not to burden everyone with this anyhow.

Nope. She pointed out she has some competencies in relevant areas. So have I. Would you prefer we be useless at this?

I don't get that impression at all. I disagree with Pinga all the time, but we come to agreements and move on.

I've seen you be far worse with Pinga than she has been with you. I understand you feel that you've been wronged, but I don't agree. I think you've been disagreed with and argued against effectively over things you take incredibly personally.

Only you can take ownership of your emotions in these situations. Pinga writes very straightforward, but I haven't seen her go for the jugular with you. She writes a little like I do, but with a little more business acumen and no clear sense of humour.

People are going to disagree with you, Kimmio. Says the atheist in a religious forum.

Well. You're wrong chansen. She's been far worse.

Pinga is being a professional.  I admire her restraint and her patience.

It seems that when people are losing an argument, the worst of personality traits emerge and Kimmio you are not doing yourself any favours by the excessive name-calling.  If you want respect, you have to earn it.

I agree with others - you need to let this go.  Dredging up stuff from past threads and carrying huge grudges does no one any good.

If you can't trust the operation of WC2 to the present admins and moderators, then don't participate, but don't turn this place into a war-zone.

I don't need your opinion to be honest. She won't converse with me privately so if I want to express my feelings I have to do it like this. And when 5 people get involved instead of just Pinga and I that upsets me. It's noone else's problem but I'm backed into a corner. Adults can say "hey I need to talk to you."..."okay let's talk." and not get everyone involved. It's not necessary.

True, chansen, your comments make me spew coffee.

Kimmio, i responded to some of your concerns earlier. Did the responses answer your question. Do you have further concerns on those points or can we put them to bed

It sounds like a plan. Just not a good one!

Hi All,

Another aside (because the thread is hopping while I am off contemplating responses to other posts)

Is the issue really about how nasty I perceive myself to be or is the real issue about how nasty others percieve me to be?  And maybe neither alone are the real issue and the real issue is about the distance between what each of us percieves.

Since I admitted to being a thinker above lets just stay with that.

When I rely on my thoughts do I percieve myself to be cold-hearted?  No, I don't.

When I rely on my thoughts do others percieve me to be cold-hearted?  They might.

So which perception is the truth?  Is there an objective way to measure between each perspective?  Some body of august individuals who can weigh both perspectives to determine which is true and which is false?

Not really.

What we percieve is what we percieve.  If what I percieve is different than what you percieve that may or may not be a source of conflict.  Others could weigh in about what it is that they percieve and the weight that they provide might be closer to what I percieve about myself or it could be closer to what some other percieves about me.

Does all that weight have the power to shift the way I percieve myself?

Does all that weight have the power to shift the way some other percieves me?

Of course they do.  Provided I am willing to listen to what it is that they percieve and why they percieve it in that way.

This is where it gets tricky.  If I disagree with one the fact that they have others who think the same way tends to result in me disagreeing with a bunch of others.

In all things the majority is as apt to be wrong as any minority.

Grace and peace to you.

John

How is it professional to suggest a "let's have a call out and get everyone involved" thread over personal matters between 2 people. That's called an amateur boxing match.

Kimmio, if you make a public accusation of me, and I think you're wrong, I'm going to want the reasons you're wrong made as public as the accusation.

If you want private, take your concerns private. You didn't do that.

Well, dang. Too bad tabitha

It's not the opinion of the topic that sticks with me it's how I was treated that sticks with me.

Kimmio, between my and Chansen s responses are you comfortable? Do you still feel that I would use my access to be vindictive or block you?

Duplicate post

Hi Kimmio,

I know enough to make the comments I make.

Grace and peace to you.

John