I am not at all convinced we should do anything regarding the issue except be willing to listen should people need/want to talk.

I am fairly sure we shouldn't do anything that might seem to be "poaching"  or sticking our nose in another denominations internal affairs.

Gordw I agree with your posts, and I also think opportunities would be rare. But many people might start to believe we do the same things that the RC do, and start to fear us even more.

Should we do anything more to educate people who believe all Christians are the same?  Many believe that the UCC is the same as the RC, except  that we have the Queen as our pope, and that we allow devorce, because our first Pope Henry 8th wanted one.  While others believe we worship a different God.

Check this too

http://www.bishop-accountability.org/accounts/

We should mind our own business and get on with our own tasks and responsibilities.  What would you expect them to do if the shoe was on the other foot?  What CAN we do:  1) mind our own busines; 2) pray for them to have the wisdom they need; and 3) examine ourselves.  What SHOULD we do:  1) mind our own business;  2) pray for them to have the wisdom they need; and 3) examine ourselves.  The ball is in their court.

You're confusing the United Church, Alex, with the Anglican Church.  The UCC doesn't have the monarchy as the titular head of the church.  The Church of England (i.e., Anglicans) were started by Henry VIII (among other historical reasons besides the divorce.)

 So when Catholics ask me about the UCC? I should tell them that? Would it not be helpful to have a web site explaining the UCC that would be accessible to someone with a Roman Church background?  Something that would explain the differences and similarities?

Something that explains how we deal with  child abuse by church officials?

What Gord said. Also I think we should lead by example when it comes to governing our own affairs, says this non-Catholic non-Protestant.

Jae, 

A Baptist is not a Protestant?  Really? 

I am not confused, I am saying many Catholics are. It is also not about attracting Catholics to the UCC, but showing them different models of governances,  as two possible outcome is that either revisionist will take over the Roman Church or the Revisionist will break away. Either way they will want to radically reform their system, and they could look at what we do, to avoid some of the mistakes we did, as well as adopt what does work.

It,s about helping other Christians.

 It could also help us. As revisionist are the majority in Canada, and stripped of the ultra conservative wing we could help each other, the community and the earth.

Most Roman Catholic Churches have been made accessible to those in wheelchairs. They will unlikely to be able to afford to keep many of them on their own.   We could share buildings.  So they will not be converted to condos. We would have accessible spaces to uses, the community would have accessible places to use. We would not have to heat so many buildings, etc, if we cooperated now that it will be possible.

We could share theological schools too. 

Just grab a bag of popcorn and watch the implosion.

Remember - this is a church which thinks it has all the answers (just like a lot of other denominations), thinks their Pope speaks directly to God, and thinks it is above the law.  Even if you gove them advice, they won't take it.  They know better than you do.

Now you've got dioceses declaring bankruptcy and hiding money from victims and their funds, the Belgians growing a pair and actually raiding the Church in that country, and debate still raging about the planned Papal visit to Britain in the fall.  And still, more information continues to trickle out about other pedophile priests and the people who shielded them and enabled them to attack more children.

The Catholic Church is a profoundly immoral and criminal organization, worse than the Enrons and BPs of this world.  The only people who deserve help in this situation are the victims of the priests.

We already do.

Where is there a joint UCC-RC theological college? I think that's what Alex is talking about - one building housing both, not a TST type situation where RCs can attend UCC schools and UCCs can attend RC schools.

 I should explain where I am coming from. I attend a Catholic University. I study philosophy, but I have taken theological courses.

A couple of years ago when the Pope declared the UCC and other Protestants churches to be not real churches, all of the Catholics where furious at him for doing so.

When the moderator of the UCC and I pointed out that we had no problem with the Pope doing so, (after all it is normal too think the church you belong to is the best) The Catholics responded by saying we were stabbing them in the back by supporting the Pope.  Why could we not say that we were a real church, like some Protestants in Europe did and say the Pope was wrong.  Why were we not supporting the majority view inside the Catholic Church, instead of supporting the Pope?

Also when I was on the Senate , the Pope would not approve of any of the candidates put forward by the school form rector. All of the theologians acceptable to the school, were unacceptable to the Pope. The problem was resolved by choosing a Philosophy professor.

When the school charter came up for review, the option of either revoking the Papal Charter came, or of including other churches.

We could not do that because the UCC and others were not interested. I put forward an idea to make the school a Theological University for Ottawa. I said why not include Protestants, Orthodox, and perhaps Jews and Muslims.   The response was that it was a good idea, but such a move would force all of the Professors with Catholic Teaching Licenses to resign, because the Vatican would not allow Profs with Catholic Licenses to teach in such a school. Also the agreement they had with the Anglicans was under stress because of differences between the Vatican and the Anglican Church.  Since Ottawa`s Religious community is 3/4 Catholics we would not be able to do so without the support of the Vatican.        Now if things continue to be exposed inside the Catholic Church, it will either force the majority of the Roman Catholics out, or the ultra conservatives at the Vatican will be forced out.

Could not the UCC say now we are ready willing and able to work with Catholics if they ask?

 This would also mean many people who would like to be UCC ministers would not have to travel as much to get their training.

Imagine a string of Ecumenical Theological colleges across Canada. Supported by all the major Churches and many small churches, plus accomadations for Jews and Muslims as well.

 This would only be possible with the support of Catholics as they make up 1/2 of the religious people in Canada. 

By presenting this alternative vision, the UCC would embolden Roman Catholics, and make the Vaticans threats seem even more empty. 

 Imagine buildings  which housed Catholics Churches, Anglican Churches, United Churches and others.

Imagine UCC Ministers holding Catholic Services where there is not enough Catholics for them to support a Priest.  Imagine UCC churches supported by Priests, trained in UCC theology and practices in rural communities where  the UCC has been forced to closed down due to small numbers, or lack of UCC clergy.

That is not true. You are confusing the Roman Catholic Church with Vatican. It is like saying  the Conservative Party under Stephen Harper thinks  the same as all Canadians.

While the UCC, Unitarians, Atheists, and Quakers have never participated in the AIDS Walk in Ottawa in a group. I organised the Catholic Students at St Paul to walk, and we were joined by Catholics from across the city.  Catholics in Ottawa are much more open minded than others in Ottawa. Most are very much against what Pope JP 2 and Pope Ben believe.

 Consider the moral imperatives of working with others during this time when we face ecological disaster and the destruction of the earth's ability to sustain human life.  

Governments are unable to save us.  Only religion liberated from Nationalism, and empire holds the possibility to help us make the change needed.  Let us grab the opportunities our apology to First Nations and the scandal in the Roman Catholic Church gives us for renewal and rebirth.

United We Stand Divided We Fall.

 The other things Protestants need to respond to, is a plea from victims.  Are  we to ignore our neighbours children when they are being abused and they ask for help?

Survivors are organising a protest at the Vatican. They have specifically appealed to Protestants to join them, even organising the protest to happen on the anniversary Martin Luther posted his 95 demands on a church in Wittenberg.

Can we ignore this plea for help? Can we say it is none of our business after we have been specifically asked to do something? I would be going to Rome if I was able to.  Are you able too go?  I am going to ask my congregation, and if any are willing to go I will go with them. I am unable to travel alone, so hopefully I can get someone to go with me.

From the Boston Herald

Bernie McDaid, a survivor of repeated rapes by a Priest that was cover up by the Church and than later proven in court and who met with Benedict himself two years ago, is organising a “Day of Reformation” at St. Peter’s Square in Rome. He has chosen Oct. 31, the day the Reformation in Europe began with Martin Luther posting his 95 theses on a church door in Wittenberg, Germany.

McDaid envisions tens of thousands of survivors, priests, nuns, Catholics and non-Catholics, believers or not, standing together outside the Vatican “united, with one voice on one day. This is about coming to the home of Christianity to say this is the people’s church, to stand up for ourselves.”

He said numerous survivors feel that neither validation nor settlement money is enough when the hierarchy still refuses to tell the truth. “To fully heal, we have to know that we’ve made a difference, that we’ve made our mark in history. History will record that this day happened, that we were there, and that is very important.

Catholics in Ottawa are large in number and organized.  And I agree that many Catholics do not support the Pope 100%.  Or even 50%.  In those cases, we need to see more Catholics, and Catholic priests coming out against the decisions of Ratzinger during his time before becoming Pope Benedict and since.  There are so few priests and bishops and cardinals who will say anything.  There is one outspoken cardinal in Switzerland, I recall.  Where are his Canadian equivalents?  Where are the Canadian Catholic leaders spaking out against the Vatican and their disasterous handling of child raping priests?

 Many do so privately. Remember the Vatican government is run like an oligarchy. So far in Quebec a Priest has spoken out publically. A former MP for the Bloc.

Also in Halifax Sister Nuala Kenny who is a very well known and respect doctor.  

As well there is an organisation that represents and speaks for all Nuns, Monks, and Priests in Canada who are not Bishops and who wish to join it. It is like a union. The Executive Director has spoken out over many years. I meet her at School, where we took a course in International development,  and she serves as a spokesperson and is choosen by a board that is elected by members of Catholic religious orders. I can`t remember her name, nor can I remember the name they call themselves. The last time they were in the Press was two years ago, and I can imagine they received a lot of threats of mass ex-communication. They are now helping raise funds for the demonstration in October, but they have stayed out of the Press.   Talking to them is like talking to resistence group members who lived under Communism in eastern Europe.

I will remember their name eventually and get back to you with it. 

All of the Bishops have kept silent or supported the Pope. One Bishop is now being charged with importing child porn and also being investigated for molesting children, and is in hiding.

The guy in Switzerland is not a cardinal but a Theologian who actually got Pope Ben his first taeching job. Hans Kung. Ben took away his Catholic Teaching License in the eighties around the time Father Charles Curran lost his in the US.

That is what happens when you speak out. You get fired and lose your salary. What is remarkable is the number of Priest and Nuns who have spoke out this year. I imagine the Pope is just waiting to deal with them, but as the scandal grows it becomes difficult for him to do so.  DO not expect any Canadian Bishops to speak out. Pope JP 2 and Pope Ben have onl appointed ultra- Conservatives in Canada and the US.

That's simply not good enough.  Not nearly good enough.

If Catholics want to distance themselves from the Vatican's position that they are not to blame, then more is to be done.  Literally, from the above link, you can see the Vatican is attempting to distance itself from it's own policies of protectionism of the church before victims, by stating that priests are not employees!  That priests are not controlled in any way from the Vatican!

The Vatican is selling their dioceses down the river and are attempting to absolve themselves of any liability.  They are the same as any other corporate scumbag who attempts to say that head office is not responsible for disasters in other countries.

If Catholics want to rise above this fiasco, then they literally have to rise up and come out against those who directed the coverups - chiefly Cardinal Ratzinger (now Pope Benedict).

 It also looks like from todays news that the Pope could be preparing to sever links with the North American,  UK, Belgian and other Catholic Churches in order to protect Vatican property and prevent him and others from being arrested on trips)  Common law is seen as a threat to them, He has set up a new office and they might be retrenching to Italy and the developing world. That is why Italian public opinion is so important.  He has more or less said that the rest of Europe and North America is lost to the Catholic Church and they need to start over again. (which is code I believe for severing ties when necessary)

It is like a game of chess. Catholics do not want to make the same mistake as Martin Luthor . They do not want to start a new church, they want to either take over, or share power, while making sure reforms are put in place to lessen the powers of the Pope.

The Pope can ex-communicate. It is not something he wants to do, it would be the equilivant of using an atomic bomb. But he wants people to believe he will use it to make them afraid. He also wants to be able to frame any possible split as being caused by secular influences, much as they say Martin Luthors reformation was a tool of the Princes of Germany.

 Meanwhile revisionists want to move at the right pace. To expect them all to speak out, would be like asking those who rose up against communism in eastern europe to show there hand just before they rose up.  

That is why it is mostly lay people inside the church who are speaking out. With many Priests and Nuns acting in a supportive role of the lay.

Any organization is responsible for its own strategic planning including use of resources, ministerial/managerial preferences, environment, as well as assessing the strengths, weaknesses, opportunities and threats to achieving their goals and mission.  I get a bit tired of Catholic bashing (and I'm not an RC myself; although many ancestors were devout RC's), I'll get the ball rolling by outlining the STRENGTHS of the Roman Catholic Church.  You can take it from there.

PERCEIVED STRENGTHS OF THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH

Catholicism has many aspects which its members consider to be strengths. Here are some examples:

1. Strong Teaching on the Right to Life

(a) Believes in respect for the unborn child, good pre-natal care and maternity leave.

(b) Catholicism believes in care for the sick, weak and elderly.

(c) Catholicism teaches that everyone has the right to a life that is dignified,

with decent work, shelter, water, nutritional food, education and health care.

2. Strong Human Rights Record

(a) Catholicism has been at the forefront of free (or affordable) hospitals, clinics, schools

and self-help programmes in developing countries.

(b) Catholicism has many dedicated priests, religious and lay folk working in poor

nations, completely free of charge.

(c) Since Pope Leo XIII in 1896 Catholicism has officially defended the rights of worker

to form unions and was very active in the US civil rights movement in the 1960s.

(d) Although criticised for its stand on same-sex activity, in many countries the Catholic

Church established care centres for HIV/AIDS victims before civil authorities.

3. Rich Spiritual Tradition

Some of the greatest spiritual figures in history have come from Catholicism, and their

writings continue to inspire, challenge and comfort people (Catholic and non-Catholic)

on their journey with God.

4. Clear Authority

(a) There is a clear line of authority, while other churches appear to have leaders to squabble with one another.

(b) Decisions can be made quickly and disseminated throughout the world.

(c) There is a feeling of unity in belief.

5. Clear Teaching

(a) People know what the Catholic Church teaches.

(b) It is consistent in its teaching.

(c) This is a sign of confidence in a world where teachings vary within some churches.

(d) It is a moral anchor in a society where people equate opinion with fact.

 Of the over one billion world wide members of the Roman Catholic church, you will, as with any organization, run into a certain percentage of 'disreputable' individuals.  Some of the problems arise from systemic assumption that all people seeking to become priests are rightly motivated.  Obviously, they are not.  An organization that size will make its mistakes, as with any group.  It's up to the organization itself to provide identity, purpose and direction to their organization and its people.

I am not RC either,

But I don't think Alex's one man destroy the RC Church crusade is going to meet with any success.

My daughter just graduated from a RC University, and I was very impressed at the Convocation Ceremony that it was truly an unashamed Christian event.

There are bad apples in every bunch, and things are ofter handled incorrectly, but diddling little boys is not what the RC stands for.

It will survive, and there will be a lot less abuse going forward.

It's more than just attendence. It's a conjoint degree. And they exist in Halifax and Vancouver, too.

My first university was a former RC university.  Many priests were still teaching and department heads.  These were the 'cream of the crop', not only academically but also as people who had a high level of ethics and morality.  I grew up in a very strong RC area with a solid history of helping the settlement of that region, and the RC churches in our area had solid programs.  Mind you, there was one priest in the whole region who faced charges, was tried and convicted, but he was very much a minority of one.  The only 'anti-Catholic' organization was a local 'Orange Lodge' (not to cast a shadow on the whole Orange order), and they were virtually ignored and soon faded into oblivion.  The RC churches where I lived had strong family values and offered their programs to the community at large.  Some of my best professors in later studies were RC theologians who were not only great teachers but also top notch, highly motivated people.  The problems they have are their problems to solve.  I see movement in that direction.  I wish them nothing but the best.

It's a conjoint degree in the sense the the seminaries co-operate and there's cross-registration for courses. But the seminaries are still distinctly denominational. In the TST model St. Michael's, Regis and St. Augustine's are still Roman Catholic. Knox College is Presbyterian. Trinity and Wycliffe Colleges are Anglican. They're not ecumenical. And Emmanuel College is still United Church. My degree doesn't come from the Toronto School of Theology - it comes from Emmanuel College of Victoria University. The Toronto School of Theology isn't even mentioned on my diploma. So there's co-operation, but not the kind of co-operation I think Alex is speaking about. I think Alex is referring to a single institution that would represent all the denominations and grant a single degree, as opposed to - the TST model again because it's what I'm most familiar with - 7 distinct colleges co-operating.

Hi DKS

I was not very specific by what I meant my sharing Theological Schools or Universities. What I meant is that instead of needing too cooperate to provide conjoint degrees, the University programs would be inside the same school, without a need for conjoint degrees. Much like St Paul University offers degrees in Anglican Studies, and Eastern Orthodox,  and Roman Catholic Programs, without needing conjoint degrees with another school.  One University/college could offer all the classes necessary. This would eliminate the need for different administrations, and different classes on many subjects. I believe that might lower costs as well as give people from different traditions the opportunity to learn from each other. 

It's a subject for a different thread, paradox, but, yeah, that's right.

Sounds like a good topic for a new thread some time, then, Jae. 

For the record, I wouldn't mind seeing the destruction of the RC Church, so it's at least a two man crusade, and "crusade" seems like the wrong word, or at least highly ironic.

"Handled incorrectly?!?"  Airlines "handle" luggage "incorrectly".  The RC church shielded known and suspected sexual predators from criminal investigation, primarily to save their own reputation, even though that backfired in spectacular fashion.

And if the church did not stand for "diddling little boys", they certainly did not stand in the way of it.

Based on what?  A promise by the Vatican to turn over suspect priests?  The same organization whose dioceses are actively trying to declare bankruptcy while hiding assets to prevent them from going to victims?  When did they suddenly become trustworthy?

My degree, granted in 1979, not only has all three institutions named (U of T, Vic/Emmanuel & TST) it has the seals and signatures of the presidents of all three institutions on it (The Very Rev. Dr. A.B.B. Moore; the Rev. Prof. Northrup Frye and Rev. Dr. Bill Lord). My MPS degree, granted in 2002, is a Vic/Emmanuel only degree, however.

It wasn't until 1978 that Emmanuel degrees had University of Toronto on them.  Although they were part of the U of T through Vic, somehow that relationship became more solidified in 78.  Do they still print them in Latin? 

My 1979 MDiv degree is but my 2002 MPS degree is in English. And I was wrong. My 2002 MPS degree has all three seals (U of T, TST and Vic) and signatures on it.

Mine, granted in 1994, is in Latin. Kind of cool, actually. David, I'll check for a reference to TST on it when I get home, but I don't remember TST being referenced on it.

To my mind, the role of other churches (I'm including UUs in this, too, since we do have some ex-RCs in our ranks, sometimes because of abuse suffered while in the RCC) is to prayerfully support our Catholic neighbours as they deal with their various crises and be prepared to assist individuals who ask for help in finding a new church or just getting support from the broader community. Those of us who work with RCs in community service groups and ecumenical groups need to be mindful of their struggles. I don't think the total collapse of the RCC is necessarily a desirable outcome (for one thing, I don't see how it helps the victims other than maybe giving the more vindictive among them a reason to cheer), but a new Reformation that actually does reform the church instead of splitting off to create a new one, would be something that many both in and outside the RCC would probably welcome.

Mendalla

The big advantage of TST is that you could tap into scholars who taught at the other colleges and get some courses from a whole new perspective.  I find uniformity scary.  For the sake of checks and balances, the denominational lines are there to keep the whole shebang from getting too 'winged out'.  I finished one doctorate from a traditional Anglican College in the U.S.  With an ancestral and personal background that ranges from Roman Catholic to French Huguenot to Methodism/United Church to Baptist, etc, I've toned down my rebel ways, however, I just didn't have the energy to continue being a thorn in the flesh.  (Some people call it a pain in the *** )  Actually, I'm becoming more drawn to the R C mass as a working model of McLuhan's 'The Medium Is The Message'.  But then again, maybe I'm just a retired old fuddy with too much time on his hands.

Alex you ask what the UCC should do about the catholic disruption and how to make ourselves more known.

There are venues to make ourselves more known.  This is one.  The UCC main web site is another.  Each corner church is another.

As to what to do?  Pray, offer support, listen.  I know our minister meets regularily with a half dozen neighbourhood ministers including our  closest priest to share and support each other.

The Catholic church isn't going to destroy itself and it shouldn't.  It may adjust and it will learn to be more responsible I am sure but it isn't going anywhere.

We could play our fiddles while  . . . .

The Atlantic School of Theology is a single seminary representing a union of an Anglican Seminary, a Roman Catholic Seminary, and a United Church Seminary--a single school with staff from all three denominations, and occasionally other ones as well.  When I attended, it was one of only two such seminaries (Catholic and Protestant) in the world.

Toxic said:   Just grab a bag of popcorn and watch the implosion.Remember - this is a church which thinks it has all the answers (just like a lot of other denominations), thinks their Pope speaks directly to God, and thinks it is above the law.  ....The Catholic Church is a profoundly immoral and criminal organization, worse than the Enrons and BPs of this world.  The only people who deserve help in this situation are the victims of the priests.

Amen! That just about says it all. This is not just a simple blip in the church's long and ugly history, but a deeply ingrained pattern of behaviour rooted in its very belief system and essential structure. Surely God's hand is at work in bringing this to the light and I for one, give thanks, for all the victims who now have a chance at healing, and all the future not-yet-victims who may be spared this ordeal.

Actually, it was people who brought this to light.  Victims, police who had the courage to investigate, and the lawyers seeking damages and criminal charges.  Even media who dared portray the Vatican as anything other than holy.

If God wanted to solve this problem, I assume He could have spared a lot more victims over countless generations.  Crediting God with this is like crediting him with saving one person from a plane crash, while apparently allowing the other 199 to die.

There's more than a little denial, conceit, hypocrisy. self-righteousness and selective judgement going on in this thread.

All of the Christian churches need to look to their hearts, mull over their own histories and work on a bit of repentance. Racism, homophobia, judgementalism, greed,,,

Let the one who is without sin cast the first stone...

Atheism is on the rise because there is no reason to believe in a god or gods.

Anti-theism is on the rise because of religious crackpots like Ratzinger.

What can or should the Roman Catholic Church do while the UCC and other Protestant denominations are in conflict and/or crisis?  Remember when you're slinging mud you're also losing ground.The UCC el al have their own scandals, etc. to deal with.

Not of this magnitude.