Cheri's a United Church Reverend and an NDP MPP.

Bill 224 was reintroduced on Nov 19, 2009.

Facebook group!

http://www.xtra.ca/public/National/Ontario_MPP_reintroduces_gender_ident...

What do you think? You don't have to be from Ontario.

go cheri... wow.  i didn't know that this was even an issue here until now.

thanks for posting this, kinst!!

We do live in the future, where the miraculous is commonplace, and the strange is normal.

I like it here.

Next up: Different-Spirited people, Transpecies Operations, and Right-to-Murder (when Resurrection Technology becomes perfected, of coise).

Just a Self-writing poem,

Inannawhimsey

Cheri DiNovo has been one of the LGBTQ communities allies, from the pulpit and the floor of provincial Parliament.

what do you mean by this, inanna??

sigsnootles,

rights for TG folk became possible when the technology to achieve transgender surgery became cost-effective.

Now, just imagine a world where our technology has advanced to the point where we don't have to worry aboot dying, we heal from most injuries pretty fast.  We have extended our lifespans to the point where death has become pretty much consensual.  Thanks to genetic modification technologies and extensions of current stem cell research, we now can grow new bodies for ourselves and download our 'selves' into them.  We can tweak our genome and cells so that we can grow a tail, or wings, or even add another species to us, so we can have Polar Bear/Human hybrids etc etc ('transpecies operations').  I can see there being people in this world who will want to participate in Murder, consensually, since death won't be permanent (unless wanted).  Or people building bodies or somehow age-regressing themselves and being polymorphously perverse.

I think that this world is going to happen, eventually, and that what is immoral today won't be tomorrow, as always seems to happen.

Of course, we will have people who won't want to be modified.  The 'Nats' lets call them.  And people who will want to become 'Machine Spirits' or whichever...

The Rights of Tomorrow will be mind-blowing.  I can't wait :3

Just a Self-writing poem,

Inannawhimsey

What have you been reading lately InannaWhimsey? Sounds like someone's a sci fi person.

Kinst,

I have an omnivorous mind.

SF is so today.  Today, we have artifical cells (both made from scratch & made from cell-material).  We have manufactured DNA with the creator's signature on it.  We have Spider Goats.  We have cloning technology.  We have the # of poor falling for the first time since humans began.  We have designed switches that can turn off if someone is observing them.  We have the ability to turn skin cells into spermatazoa and ova.  We are learning how to make computers that will utilize superposition and entanglement.  If the Gulf War hadn't had intervened, a sizeable percentage of the poor populations in the world would have "free electricity" right now.

And much more.  Miracles are happening all the time and it is just gonna accelerate.  Blink, and I find that the world has changed again :3

(since I'm in school, I have been reading school work.  not much time for reading conscious fiction)

Just a Self-writing poem,

Inannawhimsey

Apparently, fallacious "slippery slope" arguments write themselves as well.

Hm, Kinst, I really don't know. What exactly is "gender identity?"

What does the APA say about this?

Now it's my turn to be bemused.

What do you mean by this, m'dear?  I think most here, so far, are on board for the OP :3  There are no demons or monsters here, just people who are excited at how we as a species are growing.

Just a Self-writing poem,

Inannawhimsey

"will always be strongly against trans-gender operations."

You're 18-29.  How can you rule this out so categorically?  What if your child was transgendered?  

There's always conversion therapy, which is about as scarring as being waterboarded, and about as effective.

Given some of the stories of discrimination and outright abuse I've heard from the TG pack on my other board, this is welcome news. Too bad only one of them (who currently lives in Ottawa) will benefit if it passes, since most of them are Americans. IOW, she has my total, 100% support and if I was in her riding, I might well switch my vote back to the NDP over this.

Unfortunately, it's a private members bill that will likely be vociferously opposed by some, possibly even in her own caucus. In other words this is going to be an uphill battle. So, if you are in favour of this bill, write to your MPP, folks. The more support they hear, the more likely it is that this will get the votes it needs.

Mendalla

Beshpin,

I don't see the OP as being aboot SRS (Sexual Reassignment Surgery), but, rather, aboot discriminating against someone based on Gender Identity.  Discrimination should be based on ability :3

In related news, if the people that qualify for SRS do have something 'wrong' with them, then we should be able to change that, somehow.  Ways should be figured out to change that.  Medicines, etc.  Right now, I view SRS as quite a crude way of doing it (did you know that not all Transexuals go through SRS?  Hormone treatments are much more common) but, with time, we'll get better at it, until I imagine a treatment that will be as easy as changing your clothing or taking a pill.

Beshpin, aren't you just going to love the world that is coming, where everyone gets the the world they want...won't that be an uncertain world? :3

Just a Self-writing poem,
Inannawhimsey

This seems completely unreal to me and I don't see what it has to do with transexuality and sex-change treatments.

I am not opposed to sex changes although I'm inclined to feel that it is a positive thing for a person to accept his or herself as androgynous, a feminine man or a masculine woman without going through the hormone changes and surgery.

If sex change treatments make a person happier then I stand corrected. 

How does everyone get the world they want? 

umm, yeah. 

thats what i MEANT to say.  it just came out as 'ROTFLMAO!!'

well put, aquila.

Perhaps this could be a Forum Topic or Blog that I could write in the future?  Thank you for the inspiration :3

(how it relates to the OP is that I see, as time goes on, people's personal Rights being made into 'Law', and how exciting that is.  as time goes on, ``morality`` becomes more fine-tuned)

I wouldn't confuse your current life state and your feelings in regarding it with the 'state of the world' or 'the state of your society'.  I find that to be unscientific thinking.

I think all you can really state is that, to you, at this time, such-and-such seems to be the way it is.

You have much more power and choice over what you are writing and thinking than you may think.  Who knows, maybe writing the way you do gives you kicks?  But either way, you create your 'world'.  You are rich beyond measure.

Which is also a choice.  Wether you think of the world as good or bad or bad and good is your choice.  To say otherwise is to give up your own responsibility for your views and beliefs.

I am not saying that, say, when you get into a car accident, you can will your injuries to heal instantly or for the accident to never have happened.  But that after it happens, you have a lot of control over the MEANING of the event.  And we've found out that doing that can even lead to objective states.

It's easy to say that the world is falling apart, or that society deserves to fail, or that we're raping existence...there are people and organizations and ways-of-thinking that encourage this.  It is trendy.  What is hard is trying to break free of that.

You always have a choice, even if it seems like you don't.

Just a Self-writing poem,

Inannawhimsey

Beshpin,

You are entitled to your opinion. I am also entitled to tell you as a TG person that you really are making me sick, no matter what it is you are TRYING to say.

You said, "That growth as a society doesn't mean people should be inverting their penis to become a woman." 

I would in some ways agree. As a TG person, in this society, we classify people as male OR female. I fit neither.  I fit both. I went to my wife's Christmas party in a suit and tie. It is who I am and what I wanted to wear. If I had a moustache or was clean shaven with 5 o'clock shadow or went into the men's room it would cause no stares or not even be noticed. I know people who have started hormones so life is easier. Not because a hairy chest or a moustache or breasts make a person, but because society says they do. Boys have _ and _ and  __, Girls have __ and __ and ___.  I feel for those people who do things, not because of their wants/needs, but because of societies BS.

You said "If we're going to talk about this, then what makes a man or a woman? Thought? How they feel? Those are as ludicrous as socially ascribed gender roles."

I would agree that what makes a man or a woman is not about genitals or the way a mind thinks or emotions or who does what around the house.

You said "I have been and will always be strongly against trans-gender operations."

I would ask "Why?" If it is not your body, what makes it "wrong"? Is tattooing wrong? Ear piercing? Breast augmentation or reduction? What change of the body is it that touches on your gross or wrong button?

As a trans gender person, any operation I have is a trans-gender operation. Oh did you simply mean gender reassignment? Do you equally get out of joint about a woman who chooses masectomy over risk of breast cancer or a tumour? Do you crap over breast reconstruction? Are women determined by breasts? I would say no. Do you get out of joint about men choosing orchidectomy over prostate risk or cancer? Do you blow a gasket about penile reconstruction? Are men determined by testes or penis? I would say no. So, if it is not the fashioning of boobs, vagina, penis... if it is not body modification... it is something deeper. What is it?

Patient and doctor discussing options, risks, success and failure... make decision that are THEIRS. Personally, I saw no point in skin grafts and risk to create something not as well constructed as a prosthesis. I was well informed by my medical team and it was MY decision. I could make it because there was no person in my life railing for sugery and no people railing against it.

You said, "My child will not be trans-gendered, as I will raise them to be who they are, not who they want to be. I will teach my children to be happy and confident with themselves, not assuming that they are somehow broken."

I will pray to God that they are not TG. It is hopeful that you seem to dance around society and gender roles and the like, but they would meet disapproval and be hurt, angry... feel judged... by your words the same way as I currently do.

You said" If anyone thinks they were built wrong, they should commit suicide, because an operation isn't going to change how they were built, only how they are mutilated." 
 

This is where you made my stomach churn. The suicide comment, which appears to have been removed. Can you aplogize for a statement made it haste or in anger or spur of the moment or without thinking.... Or are you content, as it appears, to leave it stand?

Because my mentally ill mother, no matter how hard it was for her, never would have suggested I go kill myself. Yet, there is a bit in what you say here that aligns with those who work with transgender folks. If you have problems, work them out. A new physique won't change them. You are the same person inside before and after surgery. It simply aligns your body with your self-image.

That you say some sickening thing about ANYONE committing suicide and THEN you go on to say this: "I would call into question the parenting of any person who is interested in being transgendered." ??? Somehow, to you, is a parent that says "go kill yourself" somehow superior to a transgender parent? Hmmm...

Now, back to the real issue, not people's ick factor.... 

As a TG person, I can be told under current law that the dress code is business professional and business professional for people biologically female is a dress and pantyhose. I would feel like I was in drag. I would have/do have no recourse. It means that TG folk often work, regardless of ability, in work that requires no professional business attire. They are often underemployed. 

I would look like Ernest Borgnine in drag. I would feel, in my soul, worse than that. My last dress was a forced wearing in my early teens and I cried until I vomited over it. I would rather beg on the streets than work in a dress.

I can be fired for "dressing inappropriately" not being unkempt or slovenly or wearing anything different than is seen around the office, nothing provocative, but deemed inappropriate for my gender. I can be refused housing. I can be denied care by a doctor.

I will not say I am sorry for believing I deserve human rights and treated equally.

If a person can do the job without a dress then so too can I. Damn it!

Beshpin's going to raise his kid in a Skinner Box, doncha know.

*chuckle* I had much the same thought, ninja, though I didn't know there was such a thing as a Skinner box.

Beshpin,

Do you travel outside your box? We had to fight and go to the Human Rights  Commission to get what progress there is that younguns take for granted as always being there. I can tell you that business professional attire was WHATEVER the employer deemed it to be and it CAN BE and STILL IS gender based.

A TG friend who once worked nights and weekends on a Beer Store program for the Ontario call centre giant, Minacs, now known as Aditya Birla Minacs Worldwide Inc., left that position because moving to another program and working 9-5 meant a company dress code. That dress code was a jacket and skirt for females. Pants were not allowed. When pants were eventually allowed, by going to HR and claiming discrimination, they allowed women were to wear slacks and closed toed shoes AND hose. That is less than 8 years ago.

I am sorry, but me in pantyhose is like a woman in a jock strap.

Want to know what a person with a birth vagina faces, that is gender based and ridiculous if you ask me...read:

http://www.financialpost.com/story.html?id=1435848

Now, imagine that person has a birth vagina but lives TG or as the opposite gender or is simply butch. Yeah, I can so picture me wearing makeup in my skin coloured tights and my skirt. Again, Ernest Borgnine in drag.

Beshpin,

With lines like, "I don't need any specific study, the first thing you learn about behavioural genetics is that heredity only creates a tendency towards one behaviour or another. It does not forgo blame, it explains why." 

You, in my opinion, lose all credibility coming at this from any sort of scientific angle. I know few, who know science well, who claim they do not need specific studies, because their mind is already made up or that would not be open to new research.

I may agree that heredity and a genetic marker create a tendency. Let's say we are speaking of breast cancer, it does not mean all people with that family history or genetic markers will go on to have breast cancer. It also does not mean that there is a concrete something more that can solve it all neatly in a bow or one can "blame" it on.  I will not leap, as you have to conclusions.

Now, simply using a word like "blame", again seems more personal than scientific. Perhaps, try "causal" to at least appear to be coming at it from a scientific angle.

The concept of what we call gender comes from many places. There are those, like yourself, who lean more to believe it is conditioning in life. Nurture. There are others who lean to believe gender comes from social roles, behaviours, activities, and attributes considered. Nurture. There are others who will cite "masculine" and "feminine" attributes, behaviours without conditioning or societal influence. Nature. Gender identity is hard to assess in animals, science seems to understand that. It is difficult to distinguish in animals between gender identity and sexual orientation.

Science will also tell you that studies focus on gender role behaviours because gender identity is graded and hard to quantify.

Science will also tell you hormones play a role in human behaviour and acknowledge it is difficult to devise experiments that examine that role. They ackowledge cultural and societal variables but they also look at things like congenital adrenal hyperplasia and Klinefelter. Now, all those with hormonal imbalance or congetital conditions do not feel TG. So, one can, as I do, believe that endocrine and psychological factors must interact. Have you looked at the research on the role of androgens role in gender identity/behaviour?  What about research by Imperato-McGinley, Peterson, Stoller, Goodwin...  

Yes, there are those who believe that human gender identity is more complex than animals. Personally, I view that as anthropocentric.

We do know that in animals we can change their sex postures (deemed male and female behaviours) during coitus by hormonal manipulation. 

Gender identity and gender role behavior usually develop in conformity with the sex assignment and the sex of rearing.

One can, as you have, decide that sex assignment at birth influences the parents and thus attitudes and the way a child is treated. Youc an decide that those social factors determine the human gender identity and that it is irreversible after early infancy. You would be in the company of folks like Money and Lev-Ran.

Yet, one cannot pretend that is the only game in town.

One can also have a diametrically opposite interpretation. You can look at me. I was considered typical female at birth, reared female but began showing tomboyish behaviour early and growing more and more masculine. Another obvious example is Caster Semenya. It blows holes in gender being soley societal or how one is reared.

What of the Dominican Republic family with a 5-reductase deficiency who 18 of 19 affected, those raised female, changed gender role behaviour at puberty? There are those who believe reversal can happen after the age gender is assumed fixed by others.
IE Whatever role hormones may play may not happen fully until puberty.

There are still others who see gender as fluid.

Again, there is not one way. Although you prefer the "my way or the highway" approach.