April foo *poof*

*earth dies*

*several black clad figures pick up the props, pull down the curtain, turn out the lights*

Graeme, I generally do not know enough to comment, but just wanted to say that I appreciate your viewpoint and reading your posts.

Missed your input, 

No real disagreement with you, graeme. There's also the historical reality that Russia has a stronger claim to Crimea than Ukraine, Crimea having been a part of Russia for almost 200 years until it was transferred from Russia to Ukraine by Kruschev in 1954. That didn't mean a whole lot as long as the Soviet Union existed, but once the Soviet Union collapsed Crimea as a part of Ukraine was a historical anomaly that was bound to eventually cause tension between Ukraine and Russia, if only because, in my view, Russia has the much stronger claim to the peninsula. Frankly, I tend to side with Russia in this dispute.

You might be interested in knowing, graeme (since you generally accuse clergy and congregations of ignoring such things) that the discussion group I lead at our church has spent a lot of time learning about this dispute. It's a subject of some interest. They were quite interested in learning about the historical connections between Russia and Crimea.

The strongest supporting evidence for your claim, to me, was when leaders of the mob advanced on the lne of police who just stood their ground.  Those leaders seemed to be agents provocateurs to me.

If it wasn' so sad, I almost chuckled at thet language that was used against Russia that applied to the US in Iraq and Afghanistan, Grenada, and others.

Yes, the US disrupts the security of other countries on a daily basis. That's what the word war means. Sanctions are war, too. but the US has not declared war since 1941.

RevDavis, frown not at me. I don't think churches don't have discussion. I think they tend to avoid any discussion which could annoy anybody. Our newspaper, for example, has stunningly detached and wimpy sermonettes. They'll babble about something like letting the love of Jesus flow through your body. (which is always a good idea. But Jesus surely meant that to be employed - as in this province which is very corrupt and dominated by a business family that imposes its greed and irresponsibiliy on a people who suffer for it.

We call the sinners to account. But not if they're   rich or sociallly prominent sinners.

The papers also carry notices of public gatherings at the churches. Almost all of them are pancake breakffasts and their kin. Occasionatlly, it will be a gospel choir or somebody dressed like a cowboy who sings through his nose.

At my last, Montreal church, I had the pleasure of hosting an election meeting, and forcing all the candidates to come = and the purpose was to judge their views in a Christian context.

Similarly, I had Warren Allmand (Attorney General under Trudeau). He's a wonderful Christian gentlemen (though a papist), and the church was packed to hear him talk about third world needs.

Jesus was not simply a cutesie goody-goody preacher. That's why he was killed. I think we have to be prepared to be at least controversial.

like loving your enemy?

I don't think it's as black-and-white as this. Putin is not the good guy here, either.

Putin invaded with forces that displayed no Russian symbols, but everybody knew it was them. He blockaded Ukrainian ports and seized their vessels and armaments. He ended up getting most of Ukraine's gas reserves. But mostly, he held a sham of a referendum under an occupying force's watchful eye.

I do think Crimea has closer ties to Russia still than it does to Ukraine, in many ways. If so, there had to be a better way to maintain the port at Sevastapol and securing the security of Russian speaking people in Crimea.

But here's the limit of my knowledge about this topic. Couldn't Ukraine have been a bridge between the EU and Russia? Instead, it's now a militarized zone. Why was the choice between closer ties with the EU or closer ties with Russia?

The US has been working for years to isolate Russia by bringing in the Russian satellite nations into NATO and the EU.  It appears that the proposal for assistance offered to Ukraine (i don't know what the actual terms were, but there is a diversity of descriptions of those terms) was designed to further isolate Russia, and Russia countered with a different proposal.  Events seem to have been orchestrated in Kyiv to destabilize the Ukrainian government.  People in Russia who long resented the loss of the Crimea saw it as an opportunity to correct what was to them an historical error.  i don't understand the sham used by the Russian military.  Both sides seem to have overplayed their hands, and we have a mess.

We do have to love our enemy because they usually have a good reason to be our enemy. I  have no reason to believe that Iraqis are genetically evil - but the US murdered a million and a  half, anyway.

Putin is not a sweetheart. I don't know of a world leader who is. But we have to realize that we are being programmed to hate Russians - as though we embody all good, and they embody all bad - and on both sides it's inherited. That's racism which is still, I'm afraid, fundamental to our thinking.

The EU doesn't want a bridge with Russia. This was made clear almost twenty years ago in a document that has guided American policy every since. I don't understand why it's so little known.

In Profject for the New American Century it was very clearly stated that the US must dominate (conquer) the world. The people who signed it include former VP Dick Cheney, Donald rumseld, Bush's brother. The devotees of this cult of world conquest are today prominent in every part of the American government.

There is no evidence Putini was playing a hand at all. Obama was. The stirring up of rioting in Ukraine was begun by the US five years ago. The rioters overthrew the government in a coup. The rioters then appointed themselves to major government positions. That's an illegal government. But the EU recognized it immediately. What a coincidence!

There were two, quite obvious objectives. One was to bleed the Ukraine dry before it could go broke so banks could get their loans back. It's not a coincidence that the new presmident is a banker.

Yesterday, with the help of the World Monetary  Fund, he made his big move. He imposed a severe, austerity budget for which the poor and the middle class will pay heavily. And that, in fact, is where our relief money is going - to bankers.

Meanwhile, the rich will get a free ride - just like here.

The other objective is to put the EU up against the Russian border.

Putin did the minimum of what he had to do - and that avoided a real crisis.

But NATO is still pushing  (and before you picture NATO as good guys, remember these are the people who killed an enslaved millions around the world for the centuries of Western empires

Putin's no oangel. But I don't think he wants a war. 

I'm not nearly so confident about what the EU wants. These countries have a long history as greedy, murderous, thieving bastards. Tens of millions killed in the slave trade. the same, still going on, in Congo alone. Very few of the old colonized people love the British or the French or the Spanish or the Americans.

We automatically think of us and people like us as being good we aren't.

And let's just hope that those stunningly greedy and murderous people who control countries like the US, Britain, and France don't get it into their heads that, as the American empire collapses, we have to risk war now before their corruption and greed so weaken us that we cannot act.

I meant the Irving family.

Oh. I have to confess that I have never managed to love them.

my computer is acting up. I can only hope this reply to Saul, now Paul gets througjh.

You caught one of my many weak points. I have never learned to love the Irvings.

The situation in the Ukraine indicates interference by both the Russians and the West -- the government replaced by a coup seemed to have little more legitimacy than the new one has.

A government by coup has no legitimacy of any sort. But the NATO powers instantly recognized it

The old government was certainly bad. But it had legitimacy under inte\rnational law. Ukrainians (at teast the poor and the middle class) are being made to pay for the sins of the rich. It's exactly what is happening in Spain, Greece, Ireland - and in the US.

I noticed, too, that the North American news media seldom, if ever, referred to it as a coup. And there is not doubt that is deliberately dishonest reporting.

The American Empire is collapsing, just as all the European ones did. I don't believe the US economy is going to come back. Like many other systerms, capitalism destroys itself - in this case by its greed.

The danger, then, is that some really greedy and stupid people will decide the US must strike now, before the collapse gets worse.

I used to have that fear.  I believe the evidence is that that would trigger the final collapse of the American Empire.  The people with the power to initiate that strike have the most to lose, and most of them know it.  Though I fear those anticipating the Second Coming.

Well, we are twwo minds that think as one.

Putin's not exactly a saint. He's now doubled gas prices to Ukrain and is suggesting they pay in advance. Could mean gas being blocked from reaching other countries. Right after the Olympics, too. Not unlike former Yugoslavia.

i never said Putin was a saint. But it was not Putin who set up a coup to overhthrow the Ukraine government

And it is not Putin who has been throwing around threats - that has been Kerry. (Where Obama  is, I have no idea. there is something strange about the very minor role he appears to be playing in all this.)

In short, the US started this, and it's now the one making threatening statements.

Putin is no angel. Neither is Obama. In fact, he has emerged as a murderer in a class with Bush.

As for the gas, Ukraine is over two billion dollars behind in payments. The new (and illegal) president of Ukraine is an international banker who has aleardy openly declared his purpose is to savagely cut all Ukrainian services to make sure interntional bankers get what is owing to them. (and the two billion in gas debt is not part of that.)

So what would you do if you were Putin?

It's just that this could get messy. I'm tired of these bullies using the world as their playground. I really don't like how politics is done by any of the big leaders - while the people of the world watch not knowing what they're really thinking. Like it's some kind of high level chess game. I haven't taken a side. I can't really figure out what's going on. You'd have to be there, on the ground, in the communities, talking to people and seeing how they're impacted, no matter which side they're on, to understand it. The everyday people are who's important. I'm not thrilled that Putin's threating to cut off gas, when it'll impact countries not directly involved. Good thing summer's coming. If I were Putin, or anyone, I wouldn't cut off essential services to the 'commoners'. He's a tough guy. Get in the boxing ring with the other world leaders if you guys want to duke it out, if you can't solve it with debate.

well, that does pretty much sum it up. But you have to remember that almost all world leaders are like that. It's hard to remember how murderous our side has been. Ours aren't nice, either. They aren't even well-intentioned.

For Harper, talking tough for the Ukrainians is just a way to get Ukrainian votes in our next election. Ditto for his trip to Israel.

Obama was a key figure in creating and maintaining the dreadful slaughter in Syria. A Tony Blair is as vile as they come.

And you're quite right this one could go messy.

graeme,

couldn't all this global kerfuffle be also because populaces are sick and tired of states (and the various tsars/royal families) fucking with them for so long that they've decided to take things into their own hands?

'the global human spring'?  a global occupy movement?  Jesus' message writ large?  Judaism's gift of smashing lies and searching for truth?

what we, the viewers (and the media) do is try to find a narrative, somewhere?

I wish.

You don't need tsars and royal families to find people being abused by     governments. I would put the British government high on the list of bastards in this respect. The British have lived in relative poverty, with a bit of a break for some time after WW2, so that the rich could get richer. Ditto for the US. Largely ditto for Canada.

And the news media act as propaganda agents - to teach us who to hate. Just tonight, I was doing some reading to prepare for tomorrow's blog. And I find a BBC resport in a most unlikely place. It was in google news; and it's about the peace talks for Ukraine. In fact, the whole "news report" was pure propaganda.

(Yes, Virginia, the BBC is as lying an manipulative as they come - though few will believe it.) This one loaded the whole story so that everything Russia did was evil, and everything the US did was good. In one sentence, "pro-russian Ukrainians are said to be forcing Jews to register."  are said?

You don't publish unsubstantiated rumours. Minimally, on the hairy edge, you would at least say what the source is. They don't. Now, It's a safe bet that story didn't come from the Russian government - so guess who?

For that matter, Ukraine has a hell of a record for helping the SS to kill Jews. It is still anti-semitic, and there is still a very large Nazi party in Ukraine. In fact, Naziis complete with stylized swastikas, brown shirts and heils are prominent in the cabinet.

All the American statement quoted were made to promote hate to to give the impression that the Americans are the good guys who never, never invade anybody. We are also told the international world condemned Putin's annexing of Crimea.

No, it didn't. It was certainly contemned by the US and NATO. but that's a very small part of the world.

Most of tohe western news world has gone lower than I would have thought possible It now is painting the peace talks as a triumph of American diiplomacy.

In fact, the US started the whole mess by subsidizing the uprising in Kiev that overthrew the elected government. Putin reacted to prevent the aim of the US - to move troops and rocketry to the Russian border. Check the reports. It as the US that has been making all the threats and accusations.

But Putin has played them off the board. The US has suffered a tremendous defeat which iit now has to disguise as a victory. And the western press is covering for it.

You have to learn to  hate. Russians are evil. Moslems are evil - just as Germans and italians and japanese were once evil (and as iranians and Syrians are and as Iraqis were for a little while.

If  you want to know what's happening, the news media are the last place you should look.

And the populaces? They aren't doing a thing. The western world is being destroyed economically by its economic leaders. What they call capitalism is not capitalism at all. It is pure greed which has imposed enormous suffering on at least hundreds of millions.

And the Christian churches stand around with their faces hanging out.

no hope for anyone, eh?

just nature red in tooth and claw

states throwing their weight around, not caring

all citizens being apathetic, powerless

and you

witnessing

in hell

awesome

take care, fellow witnesser :3

"mostly, they fit a narrative that satisfies our desire (even need) for a story.  the implications defy conventional wisdom: you do not gain much by reading the newspapers, history books, analyses, economic reports; all you get is misplaced confidence about what you know.  The difference between a cab driver and a history professor is only one of degree; the latter is probably better at expressing himself."

--Nassim Taleb

i do share sentiment with this one

"Every national border in Europe," El Eswad added ironically, "marks the place where two gangs of bandits got too exhausted to kill each other anymore and signed a treaty. Patriotism is the delusion that one of these gangs of bandits is better than all the others." -- the earth will shake by robert anton wilson

Putin admitted that he sent in special forces to Crimea, the military provocateurs, which he'd denied until today, saying they were civilians. I was following the story in the Guardian today. And, very odd, Snowden called in to Putin's call-in interview show and asked him about Russian surveillance, which of course Putin said they don't spy wholesale on citizens. The call in video was prerecorded, I read, and I sincerely doubt Snowden did that of his own volition. It's all messed up. It's probably poverty and unemployment driving the nationalism on both sides, each thinking the side they're rooting for has greener grass. But the leaders came to some beginnings of a deal today, because none of them wants a civil war or worse. The US is sending in non-combative supplies like package food and water, just to say they did something to help (because they don't want escalation). Ukraine is important to everyone so I don't think they want it to get out of control. Every one of them is condemning the other side, saving face in public for their own political image and that's all it is. Behind the scenes they were probably saying, "Okay. WTF are we going to do?" It took them 7 hours of straight talks to work something out. That's more than they talk to each other straight up in a year, I'd bet.

This article from CBC is good. I like Nahlah Ayed.
http://www.cbc.ca/m/touch/world/story/1.2613124

The Guardian was updated. Later today, Snowden clarified why he asked Putin the question saying he wanted Putin's response on record (doesn't believe him) and to open up the conversation in Russia, too. I have to admit I thought he was being put up to it. Putin was crafty and refered to him as a fellow spy. The world is so bizarre.

I  hope we're working our way to a solution. But i still don't get a feeling that anyone in Washington is in charge. Kerry has been prominent in the news. But obama remains almost invisible.

I hope it calms down, but Obama's not getting ahead of himself with optimism about the document that they came up with, from what I've read. Putin said some disconcerting things yesterday. And whoever's occupying buildings they've been told to vacate, is still there. When they send in monitors, what are they going to do if still nobody's budging?

Good questions.

I don't think Ukraine is a viable nation. It's full of ethnic groups, political extremes- the extremists are armed and trained by the US - something our news media didn't tell us but is in some testimony in the Congressional Record.

What they needed was a basic redesign of the whole country. But that's not going to happen.

Almost all the news we're getting is either lies or slanted. There was a report of a Ukrainian paratroop regiment losing its column of armoured cars. How do you lose a whole column of armoured cars?

Answer - you don't.  The Ukrainian troops in the armoured cars were pro-Russian, and went over to join the Russian side.

And I'm very worried about the low profile of Obama in this whole affair. There is no sense that he is in charge - and it's quite possible he isn't, that he has been told to keep low and leave this to ----?

One of the things Obama did say is that he fears Russia might use its power in a disruptive way. This from the leader of the nation that has invaded, bombed or droned half the world in the last fifty years, killing millions.

What do you think about this, Graeme?
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/apr/18/vladimir-putin-ukra...

It looks like they've agreed to a truce over the Easter weekend. And according to this article, surveys done in Ukraine show that the majority of Ukranian residents neither want Moscow taking control, nor do they consider the acting Kiev government to be legitimate.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/apr/19/russia-defends-army-ukraine...

both of them are quite reasonable - as reasonable as one can be about that mess.

Add to it that the Ukraine is flat broke and, under the new regime, it faces real horrors of poverty for years to come - in order to make foreign banks happy.

I don't know what Russia's objectives are now. I'm not sure Russia knows. There was always the general mess well descrived in the second of the articles - though it is strange not to mention the poverty that exacerbates all the rest. We have very little sense of the poverty beinig suffered by Ukraine, Spain, Ireland, Greece... The capitalist economic system itself is breaking down because of the greed of major capitalists, and their rise to political power over the last fifty years or so.

Nor are our news media paying much attention to what is going on.

To what was already a horrible situation, the US broke international law by interfering in Ukraine affairs, supplied weapons and organization and money, organized street riotss on a massive scale, and overthrew the government. In our news media, the current Ukraine government is just lovely. In fact, it's illegitimate, works for the banks, and relies heavily on such groups as the Nazi party.

I idon't trust anybody's handling of this; and I think we shall have a crisis on our hands for a while.

One of the problems in ethical thinking is because some one did a bad act some where that jusdtifies a bad act on the part of others.  This is a fallacy much of this discussion indicates.  Sure interference on the part of the west but that does not justify Putin. He acted and needs to be judged on his actions not his excuses.

As part of the left I am surprised how many of the left leave the blame on the west. Yes they must be judged but it does not jusify Putin.

Yes there is a connection on the Crimea from history, but again how do you justify the present on the past?  Apply that to other situations like Quebec.

excellent precis

i think i've noticed a nihilstic thread of thought among 'the left'...('white man's burden'?)

nature is inherently good

humanity, technology, capitalism, is inherently not good

being white, a westerner, a christian, a religious person, male is inherently being bad, an oppressor, etc

comedies don't tend to win pulitzer prizes...comedians don't win the peace prize...

there are and have been interesting investigation into oxytocin's relationship with human interactions and finds out that it has a dark side as well -- you are more likely to lie to help those of your in-group, even if you've never met the members of your in-group

"Oxytocin promotes group-serving dishonesty"

there's also been that study that has found out that if presented with data that is vastly contrary to your own beliefs, we tend to become even more radical and we are more critical to what we alreay believe than what we don't believe...

so its understandable, to me, why hate exists, why nationalism exists, why all this fear and racism...why the need to scapegoat...

how to 'solve' it, though? assuming its even possible, can we make everyone in the world part of the same in group without taking away people's choice?

panentheism - it's a little more complex than that. A reality is that in the west we have a news media which largely ignore and even hide the wrongs that the US did in setting this off.

Putin was in the very difficult position of having to react. A reaction is not to be judged on the same basis as an action.

As well, it's not yet terribly clear whether Putin has done anything wrong.

And I am puzzled why being a leftist  should affect one's thinking in this. There are virtually no leftists on either side.

panentheism - it's a little more complex than that. A reality is that in the west we have a news media which largely ignore and even hide the wrongs that the US did in setting this off.

Putin was in the very difficult position of having to react. A reaction is not to be judged on the same basis as an action.

As well, it's not yet terribly clear whether Putin has done anything wrong.

And I am puzzled why being a leftist  should affect one's thinking in this. There are virtually no leftists on either side.

This, Graeme. This is a terrifying piece:
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/apr/19/ukraine-donetsk-pro-russia-...

It's rather scarey. These guys seem to me to be narrow minded thugs. Disaffected youth and old timers stuck in the past. This is not the makings of a legitimate government.

It is terrifying. The reality is this is not good guys-bad guys. this is ruthless thugs on both sides. The chaos has allowed stalinists, naziis, every sort of nut bar out of the woodwork. The US has slaughtered million in Vietnam, Cambodia, Iraq, and on and on with no clear reason. Stalinists, Naziis, American big business - they're all the same.

Arguing who is wrong and who is right is a waste of time. Both sides are wrong. We usually waste our time in arguing who is right and who wrong in any war. The news media manipulate us into hating one side - and that's it.

The first  example in Canada of this was in the earliest days of the modern newspaper. Canadian papers painted the Boer farmers of South Africa as evil, and the British, racist empire builders as emissaries of God. And they convinced Canada to take part in a war that had nothing to do with Canada.

Our history in much of the twenteth century and today is a history of fighting other people's wars.

That's why in my blog today, I t ried to switch gears to address the question the news media haven't addressed. Should we be involved in this mess?

I don't think we should. It really has nothinig to do with us. It has to do with US empire building - and a hundred other absurd and destructive causes.

Some will say NATO obliges us to go to war. No, it doesn't. NATO is simply a tool of US foreign policy The European powers cling to it because they aren't powers any more, and they have to kiss up to the US to get scraps from the table.

Going to war is a  decision of international law and the UN charter. Nobody has an obligation to go to war because NATO says so.

I think we should grow up, and stay out of this one.

I note that Harper has sent six jets to Ukraine. If a war starts, they can hardly pull out and fly home. That means Harper has committed us to war. And that is illegal. One reason, supposedly, that 60,000 Canadian died in World War I was to ensure that in future wars, Canadians through their elected representatives would make the decision for war. Harper has ignored a fundamental right of this country.

Let's say we fight this war. It is almost certain to go nuclear. No matter who wins, we sill all suffer the effects of that. If the US wins, it will then push missiles and troops to the Chinese border to repeat the scenario. The result is the same - only probably worse and more final.

There is no reason whatever for us to take part in this war.

Graeme, you started by saying Putin acted in the right, didn't you? If anything this could become a long drawn out civil and economic war and another cold war. It could but it doesn't mean it will. Nothing is certain. I agree we don't need to participate in wars. Noone does.

From Telegraph UK. Short video with a Donetsk local. For some perspective. Things do look a lot more 'normal', less chaotic, than what we're seeing in the news. I'd like to hear more reports like this from the locals about what they think.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/10776506/Life-g...

"Against all Nationalisms" by Jonas Kyratzes

riffs on the Ukraine (link goes to a youtbe playlist)

gorgeous subtropical paradise crimea

Some act with false equivalency in their analysis.  Yes there is complexity here but that does not justify Putin, 

No it doesn't.

We aren't talking justification. These are not people who even think of justification.

Diplomatically, when the US overthrew the elected government of Ukraine, Putin had to make a choice. The moral and ethical choice might have been to submit to force in order to avoid bloodshed.

But world politicians rarely think in those terms. Putin's reaction was to seize control of Crmea in order to protect his naval base, and to give him some protection against Ukraine in general.

The situation called for an immediate response. What would you have done?

And why are we even discussing Putin as if he were the central figure? For over thirty years, the US has been the most aggressive and murderous country in the world.

I have no doubt Putin would be equally murderous if he were in a position to be so. But he isn't.

So what would you have done?

More local perspective from the guardian. Two cousins in Donetsk, politically divided, play video games over beer and pizza:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/apr/22/ukraine-families-divided-do...

That's useful reporting. We aren't getting any in North America. Today it was all blustering speeches by vp Biden and the premier of Ukraine. We have no sense of who the Ukrainians are or what they think. We have no sense of their politics To talk of their love for democracy in a country in which some just overthrew the elected government seems odd. There are members of the Nazi party in the government. We've been told nothing about them.

As nearly as I can tell, Ukraine is really in something like a civil war. But all we're getting is propaganda news.

There's nothing truly funny about this, but it does one good to try have a sense of humour:

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/cartoon/2014/apr/24/steve-bell-...

This is from CBC, Nahlah Ayed, a few days ago:

http://www.cbc.ca/m/touch/world/story/1.2620907

of chickens, chimps & ww 3

Hey Inanna.

This thread's gone quiet. Where's graeme?