With all of the advertising, there was no doubt in anybody's mind that a yes vote was a vote for hate. 

dr phil did a show on same sex marriage yesterday.  i watched a bit of it, but the people on the 'yes to 8' side were an evangelical pastor, some chick from 'focus on the family'... the people on the 'no' side were the mayor of san francisco and a lawyer.

basically, from what i gleaned, the only dissention with the whole thing is that they interpret it as going against the teachings of jesus.  which is hilarious, cause jesus never said a word about it.

Greetings!

I only caught a glimpse of the show sighsnootles refers to, but the members on the panel were:

In support of gay marriage:

• attorney Gloria Allred, president of the Human Rights Campaign
• equal rights advocate Joe Solmonese
• San Francisco Mayor Gavin Newsom.

Opposing gay marriage

• pastor of Skyline Church in San Diego CountyJim Garlow
• president of the National Organization of Marriage Margaret Gallagher
• co-campaign manager for the Yes on 8 Campaign Jeff Flint. 
   

I wish I could have seen the whole show . . .

Hope, peace, joy, love . . .

 There is such a high divorce rate nowadays partially because of people getting married for the wrong reasons, and honestly...equality.  Women and en are more equal now then they ever have been in the past.  And with this equality, the needs filled by either spouse start to diminish.  They no longer really need each other for support.  Then their relationship turns strictly physical wich is a bad way to base a relationship.

As-Salaam Alaiykum

-Omni

Really Omni - do you think the divorce rate would go down and that there would be happier marriages if the man had to depend upon his wife for financial support?  I would think that they both, but the man in particular, would be much happier if they were equally dependant upon each other for physical, emotional and financial support. 

I pity the woman who is only loved for her pay cheque, and the man who has to ask for an allowance.

Really Omni - do you think the divorce rate would go down and that there would be happier marriages if the man had to depend upon his wife for financial support?  I would think that they both, but the man in particular, would be much happier if they were equally dependant upon each other for physical, emotional and financial support. 

I pity the woman who is only loved for her pay cheque, and the man who has to ask for an allowance.

i have to give my husband an allowance, seeler... otherwise, he nickel and dimes us into a financial crisis.   a starbucks here, a tim hortons there... going out for lunch with friends isn't going to make THAT big a deal... oh, the service charge for withdrawing cash from that machine is only $2.50... suddenly, without even trying, he had spent $200 in a couple of weeks.

we tried all kinds of things, but in the end, the only solution i've found that works is that i give him an 'allowance' at the beginning of every month, in cash.  he can spend it however he wants.  but once its gone, ITS GONE. 

it works great.

Sighs - whatever works for you!

My mom has always handled the finances.  Unless he had money to pay for something specific, I don't think that my dad has ever had more than $20 in his wallet at any given time.  It isn't really an allowance, but my mom gives my dad money as he needs it.  When I was in high school and had money in my pocket, I frequently had to loan him money and get repaid by my mom.  Now that he is retired, he may not even have $20 any more; I know that his wallet is frequently empty..

itdontmatter - you remind me of the old days when rural boys often quit school at 12 or so to help out on the farm or work in the woods.  Girls stayed in school for a few more years and got a little more education although most one room rural schools only went to Grade 8.  After a couple got married, or pay day the husband would hand his wife the pay envelop (often they were paid in cash).  She might hand him back $10,00 to last until next payday, or, if he was a drinker she might only give him $2.00 and he would have to come back to her every time he needed money.  She would settle the bill at the local grocery store,  and place an order from the Eaton's catelogue for clothes for the kids, Christmas gifts, household items.  The rest was put in the jar in the cupboard for emergencies.  We were among the poorest in the neighbourhood (Mom's illness before medicare came in used up a huge chunk of dad's pay) but I never remember asking for a quarter for school that Mom couldn't reach into the jar and come up with it.

But I think that there were a good many families where the man stopped at the local watering place before he took his pay envelope home and when he handed it to his wife there was very little left to run the household.

In some ways it worked that way, except my dad doesn't drink or spend money unless it was necessary; and he made a good living as an aircraft mechanic.  He grew up very poor and probably never carried any money.   I think that it was more a matter of him not really feeling any need to carry money unless he had an immediate need, such as to buy gas for his car or car parts.  Trips to buy car tires were a family affair and my mom wrote the check for them.

Unsure if this will come through as a link or not, but a great video re prop 8

www.funnyordie.com/videos/c0cf508ff8/prop-8-the-musical-starring-jack-black-john-c-reilly-and-many-more-from-fod-team-jack-black-craig-robinson-john-c-reilly-and-rashida-jones

 Thanks, that is a great video

 oliandra: Don't worry, everyone posts 'novels of opinions' here.  Just in future, some paragraph breaks might help.

I wonder who Dr. Phil supported?  Hmm...

Omni: I don't quite get it - how does equality turn relationships physical?

Pinga, thank you for that!

LB

Gay marriages will save the economy!     Prop 8 - The Musical

Thank you Olandra for such a positive post.  My spouse and I were married in 2005 when it became legal for same-sex couples to be married in BC Canada and yes it is very important to use the word married.  In my opinion it would not have been important if no one could use the word married but if only some people can get married then separate but equal is just a polite way of saying separate and discriminated against.  There was a time when black people had separate pools, separate beaches etc.  They had pools and beaches it was not that they were denied access to facilities, they were just not allowed the same as white people.  I think that now we know that this is discrimination.  It is more obvious I believe when you say that gay people cannot even use the word marriage.  I also believe that it would be a true shame to take away the right of hetero people to choose to become married.  In Canada we have decided that all people can choose to become married.  This however, means that people who decide not to become married may decide to opt into a lesser commitment when it comes to mingling of their property depending on how long they have been together etc.  So Omni deciding not to get married may have consequences way beyond the physical. 

I think that it was a huge embarrassment and sadness that the Americans at the same time that they put the first black President in Office also enacted some of the most bigeted legislation since the slave legislation.  It is incredibly sad.  Elisabeth

 The California Attorney General, Jerry Brown, is opposing Prop 8; this is unusual because the California AG as a representative of the state was thought to have a responsibility to legally fight for the results of propositions.  Jerry Brown says that his responsibility is to uphold the state constitution.

I would suspect that the AG is aware that this proposition may violate the Consititution and therefore the AGs office responsibility is to uphold that first and foremost. 

Personally I don't see how a right that was given can then be taken away, particularly when the right is upheld by both the American Constitution and the International Human Rights - but then I don't get paid the big bucks of a constitutional lawyer so my opinion is just that.

LB

Whereas recognition of the inherent dignity and of the equal and inalienable rights of all members of the human family is the foundation of freedom, justice and peace in the world,

Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Dec 10, 1948

After reading more recent analysis of Jerry Brown's decision, this is the first time that a Calif. Attorney General has done this, and it was a given that he would defend the Proposition to the Calif. Supreme Court -- although he wasn't expected to be very passionate about defending it.

Brown' decision to officially fight this Proposition and the reason that he has given for fighting it are considered to be novel.  The attorney who will be fighting for it is Ken Starr, and he is being paid by the right wing Christian group that sponsored Prop H8.  Starr was retained because the right wing Christains had feared that Brown wouldn't mount a very effective defense of Prop H8. 

I find it disturbing that it is considered novel for a state Attorney General to attempt to uphold the State's Constitution.

As do I - perhaps we are both naive in holding our institutions to higher standards.

As an aside, is that the same Ken Starr who dourly dragged the Clinton Administration through the mud?

LB

You're making me feel like a skunk at the garden party.    

Kenneth Starr

It is the same Ken Starr who tried to drag the Clintons through the mud.  

Starr is also representing Blackwater in a case involving the deaths of four contractors killed in Iraq.

Hey, cool.  A new fundie.  Haven't had a new one in a while.  Doesn't sound like a sock puppet, I think it's a genuine new fundie.  Neat.  Does anyone have the time to smack his arguments down, or are we finally bored of tilting at this particular windmill?

As it is just after Solstice and Christmas, my partner and I had a wonderful time in Las Vegas last week, and the New Year is approaching; I will be charitable and just feel sorry for him.   

I still think that it is creepy for somebody to say that they "love" somebody who they have never met or spoken to.

Feel sorry for me? LOL oh that is rich LOL

my bad if you were not refering to me LOL

Rofl is that the best you can do LOLOLOL

Here scoff at this truth!

22How long, O simple ones [open to evil], will you love being simple? And the scoffers delight in scoffing and [self-confident] fools hate knowledge?

    23If you will turn (repent) and give heed to my reproof, behold, I [^[d]Wisdom] will pour out my spirit upon you, I will make my words known to you.^(E)

    24Because I have called and you have refused [to answer], have stretched out my hand and no man has heeded it,^(F)

    25And you treated as nothing all my counsel and would accept none of my reproof,

    26I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when the thing comes that shall cause you terror and panic--

    27When your panic comes as a storm and desolation and your calamity comes on as a whirlwind, when distress and anguish come upon you.

    28Then will they call upon me [Wisdom] but I will not answer; they will seek me early and diligently but they will not find me.^(G)

    29Because they hated knowledge and did not choose the reverent and worshipful fear of the Lord,^(H)

    30Would accept none of my counsel, and despised all my reproof,

    31Therefore shall they eat of the fruit of their own way and be satiated with their own devices.

    32For the backsliding of the simple shall slay them, and the careless ease of [self-confident] fools shall destroy them.^(I)

    33But whoso hearkens to me [Wisdom] shall dwell securely and in confident trust and shall be quiet, without fear or dread of evil.

Las Vegas!  Glad you had a good time!  I hope you didn't lose too much money :)  Did you get in some good fornicating time?  I find that nothing makes a holiday special quite like some good fornication.  That's what Christmas is all about, after all - the fornication!

Hrm.  Wonder if that was too much.  Naw.

If the life changing power of Christ turns you into a disgusting shell of a person like Innkeeper, I'd rather turn ...

Hell I'd rather turn into pond scum.... at least pond scum has a use on occasion.

man, i'd love to smack down innkeepers arguements... just a little smack??  please???

 Itdontmatter, love the troll sign!

lb.... ROTFLMAO!!

 RevMatt; We had a great time in Las Vegas, and I only lost about $30 on penny slots and quarter poker machines.  We stayed in a clothing optional gay resort that had a hot tub, steam room, and fornicating room -- which we kept busy every night, dragging guys we met in the bars back to our hotel.   I don't normally drink alcohol, so I was the designated driver, which worked out just fine. 

We also kept a few of the more adventuresome hotel guests busy .  My partner and I, and the guys we brought back; are hairy, bearded, tattooed, and wear leather (aka 'bears'); and our appearance scared off some of the less adventuresome guys who may have been in the fornicating room.

To Innkeeper - If you believe in Jesus, then you must believe in following his ways or your faith is a sham. Never once does he say anything against homosexuality. He came to give the new law. Moses gave the law in the physical, and Jesus gave the law in the spiritual. He completed Moses' law and gave the way forward. He ordered people to love one another, and to treat your brother as yourself. Period.

The problem with religious folks like you is that you would prefer to live in a world without Jesus, which is the reason why the world is in the mess that it is in right now. It is way too much bother to think about what it would be like if you were the other guy. It's way too easy to condemn instead, and say that it's the other guy's fault, and in the case of homosexuality, to actually believe in a God who would be so cruel as to condemn a soul before birth. That's an extremely mean God, and I don't believe in that God. 

There are 5 verses in the entire Bible that call homosexuality a sin, all spoken by souls who had not reached Jesus status of becoming one with God. Paul was one of them. You must remember that right before Paul's big revelation, he was going around killing Jesus' followers. Then he was blinded by the light. A soul who believed that killing was proper, was knowingly breaking one of the Ten Commandments, and doesn't get to become one with God overnight. There would be stumbling blocks, so his words must be read that way. Paul's letters were written based on a faith that Jesus would save him because he'd decided to change his ways. That takes time. A guy who believed killing was the way to go, would have arrived into the world with quite a superior ego complex that would need to be taken down in stages. It would probably take him many lives, however that logic is also a bone of contention with the Christian church, since on the whole they seem to have decided that there is no such thing as reincarnation, which is actually pretty funny since that's what Jesus' message was all about.

The Bible was written by souls on their way to God. Right at the start of the New Testament is a story of a guy who had actually arrived there, and he gave us the tools and instructions to get there ourselves. The world just couldn't care less about listening then, just like it doesn't want to listen now. The completely hilarious part, is that the Christian church believes that Jesus died for their sins, and so they're safe and automatically bound for heaven no matter what they do or say. He did no such thing. He died because there was sin in the world. Sin is people refusing to love each other and to care for each other. They didn't believe that Jesus' message came from God. They thought that he was from the devil instead. Jesus is pretty darn specific about what happens to souls who choose not to follow his ways. That's why he said that very few people find life. They are too close minded and into their own stuff to ever bother spending any time whatsoever trying to place themselves in the other guy's shoes and have compassion for him. 

I'm not gay. I've just had the wonderful opportunity in my life to get to know many gay souls, and have found them in the majority of cases to be caring, loving, and compassionate people and my heart goes out to them every single time that the Christian Right Voice of Death points their self righteous fingers at them, which is pretty constant, and continues to want to deny them rights that any human being should have, and then have the audacity to say that they speak for Jesus. Hey - didn't Jesus say not to judge lest they be judged? Oops! See how much fun religion is. It keeps you laughing all day long. It's Adam and the apple only way worse. It's why the road to destruction is so very wide.

And by the way innkeeper - for every Bible verse you can throw at me, I'll toss you two back. I'm going to win every single time, since each verse is filled with deeper levels of understanding. It's God's big joke on the world. Verse pushers just don't get it. They just memorize and say. Just like a robot. I prefer to follow Jesus instead. It makes my life SO much easier and fills it with tons of rewards. I don't even have to spend time reading that Bible, since what was it that Jesus said? Oh ya, you search the scriptures for me, and here I am.

Jesus' instructions were pretty darn simple and logical. Any idiot can follow them. You only have to choose to do it. That's the scary part that very few people understand. And, since every single religion in the world other than Satanism, is built on the Golden Rule as spoken by their individual prophet, and since the majority of people in the world profess that they are part of an organized religion, then that means that there are actually very few people in the whole wide world who have any blessed idea what they would like to have happen to them!!!!!!! Welcome to 2009 on planet Earth! 

I heard that the InnKeeper got banned from Wondercafe.

Praise the Lord! There is a God! 

We have had so many who come in angry, and through dialogue, and patience, we learn to find a spot where we can walk together, and agree to disagree.

I am always sorry when we cannot do so.

For me, that is one of our losses....My sense is there were some posts that I did not see, and I always respect Admins decisions, and those who take it to Admin; however, ..there is still that sense of dang....and a wish to have been able to make a wee crack in the armour. 

Too true Pinga.

I have come to the conclusion that holiday breaks bring out a tribe of bored, probably sugar high, individuals looking for something to alleviate the hyper stress they are feeling and this forum, plus all the other ones out there, bear the brunt of it.

Personally I try very hard to ignore those that I think are fly by trolls looking for this release but every now and then one of them will say something so egregious that my fingers overtake my brain.

There is also always the possibility that when such individuals start eating healthier they may just end up contributing something valuable to the discussion.  One does live in  perpetual hope....

LB

If you are bitter at heart, sugar in the mouth will not help you.     Yiddish Proverb

I agree wholeheartedly. I always wish that I could make a wee crack in the armor. Unfortunately, I was raised in that type of ultra conservative environment and that's why I know my Bible so well, and posted my slap back further up the thread. I was always in disagreement with that philosophy, and always spoke my voice from a very early age, and to this day have not been able to make a wee crack in the armor, other than with my parents for which I am eternally grateful.

When you decide to live your life in opposition to Jesus, that's what you decide to do. The Bible will give you justification for absolutely anything that you would like to do or think. Look for it, and you'll find the verse. When given the freedom of choice to either love or hate, they've decided that they'd rather hate. It's way more hassle to love. It requires you to do things like lower yourself and forgive your brother for whatever he decides to do to you, put yourself in the other guy's shoes so you can see things from his angle, constantly look for similarities in both of your characters and ideas that make you the same as opposed to different, and the desire to look at yourself when you've been a jerk, so you can ask your brother for forgiveness and then think about changing so that you don't do it again.

Some people just don't want to do that, and there are many many churches out there that tell you point blank that you don't have to, nor are you supposed to. I was raised in them. They kept teaching me that I was to be in opposition to my brother on Jesus' behalf or I'd never get my eternal reward. It was my duty to constantly work to convert "the fallen heathens", of which by reading the posts on this site, is pretty much 100% here, and if we "heathens" were to ever have the ability to "crack" them, they'd wind up spending their eternity in hell, since heathens come from the devil. That's scary business. Then they'd quote the verse.

They have strength in numbers so they must be right. Their churches are full to overflowing every Sunday. They adamantly believe a dream that Jesus will reward them for hating their brother, and destroying God's earth. I feel for them when the time comes to face the reality of those decisions. I wish wish wish I could make a wee crack in the armor prior to that. God knows that I keep trying. Life is just way more fun, exciting and rewarding when you choose to love instead. Unfortunately, they're not into that, and they'll quote you the verse.

golden girl, you give me hope.

Although people like the InnKeeper are offensive, most times  I prefer to keep dialogue open for while we continue to talk there is always the chance that bridges can be forged.  There is a man in my church who is very fundamentalist.  I am not.  It has taken us about 10 years but over the course of the last 1.5 years we have been working on a communal project which has drawn us closer.  His wife and I are also in a bible study together.  We may never be close friends but at least I don't believe that he actively hates me anymore though I do think that he believes that I am damned to hell and probably should have my children seized from me.  However, God is good and I will fly with the Spirit when I die and you can't discriminate in Canada against gay people anymore.  LOL  

So I am torn about the InnKeeper being banned.  His words do not hurt me personally but the fact that he was banned means that the good people of this board no longer have the opportunity of bringing the Light to his tortured soul. 

One more thought though, I am sure that being an Admin is a very difficult job and so I want to be clear that I support the Admin entirely in his decision. 

personally, i love it when people like innkeeper show up because i love to bat them around.  i'm a flame warrior, and although i'm ashamed to be so excited by it, i just love a good flame war.

i'm truly sorry for what i am.

I've said many of a prayer for you, sigh LOL

Who Officially Donated Money for Prop 8
http://chipuni.livejournal.com/2008/11/06/

The LDS risks their tax-exempt status for supporting Prop 8 :3

Who Officially Donated Money to Protectmarriage.com
http://chipuni.livejournal.com/2008/11/07/

Bit by bit by bit, the world changes,

Inannawhimsey

Coming into this late, I know.

To be completely honest, I was very surpised that Prop. 8 passed. I didn't think that the States was that conservative - and this is even considering that there are conservatives out there who support gay marriage. Hell, I'm one of them ( legally, anyway, long story...)

It was just a very interesting thing to see, for me, how polarizing this issue has become, and how overwhelming the opposition was - it can be pegged on the Mormons or the black community, but over-all, it seemed to just be a general movement.

Ho hum - Innkeeper's here. The best thing to do, of course, is to run around screaming 'Fundie in our midst!'

Seriously though - what's up with that? Who cares?