After discovering him on the top of the fridge at midnight, after he was long thought to be asleep, we realized we needed to do some adaptions.

#1.  Ensured that we knew when he was out of his room.  We have a very soundproof house as it does not have vents.   I refused to lock him in a bedroom.  I knew of a child that had a lock on her door, and it gave me the creeps.  Yet, he needed to be safe.  He could climb over a gate, so that didn't work.  We went with two gates.  One on top of the other.  The gates were on the outside, so if he hammered on them, they would fall.  This ensured we would hear the gate falling..it would wake us.  In addition, he could see what was going on.

#2.  Put food down low where he could get it .   This meant that the cereal is in the lowest cupboard along with the pots/pans.   

He is and was a creative problem solver.  He found ways to get what he needed when he wanted them.   That night he was hungry and wanted a banana.  He climbed, hoisted and tiptoed around the kitchen cabinetry to get to those bananas.

On top of the fridge???  Is 'e part cat or something? :3

lol, Ina...no....

He was under 2.  He pulled the drawer out, climbed on it, walked around the cupboard, climbed onto the pulled down spice rack, and up onto the fridge.

He was determined.  

We had previously taken all high furniture out of his room, and had to take the crib out an early age, as he was climbing out.

He had a very high pain threshold. I think high pain threshold allows for kids to do things like climb at an early age, as they truly don't hurt when they fall during the learning

anyhow, the reason he did that was he was hungry....

being an independent soul, he just determined to get himself something to eat

Hmmm...when I read non-traditional sleep patterns, I assumed you meant someone who was a night owl or something similar to that.  Sleeping on top of the fridge is a bit more extreme, I think. 

lol, not sleeping!  He climbed up to get food when he should have been sleeping.

anyhow, there are some children , like my first, who you could put down for bed, he would sleep , solidly, wherever he was.....would wake up once through the night, and then sleep more.

He still has predictable sleep patterns. Likes to go to bed early, and wake up early.

There are others, who do not folow those patterns....For parents who have to learn to cope with such kids, i wonder if we have ideas to offer.

Ok, I assumed he had fallen asleep up there for some reason, after he had eaten.  We're a family of night owls, but we all stay in bed all night for the most part.

Hi Pinga,

Without wanting to point fingers and make pronouncements about anybody or anything I do want to say, in all my experience walking my Son and now a foster child through the mental health system one of the first questions asked is, "how do they sleep?"

So, as cautiously and as delicately as I can put it.  Non-traditional sleep patterns can be symptomatic of something very serious.

That said, sometimes non-traditional sleeping patterns are learned.  We have friends who never set a definite bed-time for their children.  They figured that the kids would determine on their own when they were tired and head off to bed then.  The only problem with that very logical thinking is that the child will also only wake up when sufficient sleep has been had.  This is most problematic when life is not so accommodating.  Our friends continue to be very lax about bed-time and report that getting the kids up for school every morning is something of a war.

No wonder.

Establishing a good rythym of sleep is probably one of the easiest health things an individual can do.  When that sleep happens may not be open to much choice, ensuring that it does happen (uninterrupted is best) is.

Personally, if it is needed I can stay awake for a couple of days (with all the impairment that comes with it)  I can also fall asleep as quickly as I close my eyes (I am not chronically tired just a hyper efficient sleeper).

Grace and peace to you.

John

Interesting RevJohn.

Maybe it depends on how now traditional?

Our first son and 2nd son were parented in the same manner, smae house, of course, with some differences given birth order.  

The first one, slept well and often.  The 2nd did not from early infancy his patterns were less defined.  His eating patterns were also less defined.  

Both are good stable guys with no mental health issues, so, although sleep patterns may be a sign of other issues, I'd be loath to say they alone are a sign.

I was a non-sleeper.  I would only drift off for a few minutes at a time.  As a toddler I was not allowed to nap as it meant I would sleep for a few hours at night.  I remember as a kid having rules, I and would just spend time reading in my room before a certain time when I could come out.  Luckily, I wasn't the climber, that was my sister who was a great sleeper.

Hi Pinga,

Tradition is a funny word.  It can be used to mean anything from, "the way it always is everywhere" to "the way I have always done things."  With respect to sleep and humanity in general I think tradition is typically sleep when it is dark and don't when it isn't.  Hundreds of other concerns can move that tradition around.  I think that the most important concern, mental health-wise is the amount of undisturbed sleep an individual can get.

It was not my intent to pretend to diagnose mental health problems based on a shallow reading of sleep patterns.  It is my intent to raise a bit of a flag that this can be an early warning sign.  Having said that both my son and our Foster child are excellent sleepers so there are other symptoms other than sleep to look for.

Lack of adequate sleep has been shown in recent studies to be as dangerous to drivers as alcohol or narcotic impairments.  I remember proof-reading the only paper I ever wrote after the university "all-nighter."  I had clearly wasted  hours that would have been better spent sleeping.  I remembered strongly be very happy with my thoughts and typing them into the computer with fervish speed.  I approached the proof-read with a great deal of pride thinking I would be very pleased with my late night brilliance.

The cold-harsh light of day revealed that my brilliance had all the substance of any dream and the pages of material I had gone to bed so proud of turned out to be dreck that humilited.  Needless to say I skipped classes that day in order to produce something more representative of actual thought process.

Personally I tend to be more pragmatic about it.  I don't care where you sleep, when you sleep or how you sleep if you can perform what is expected of you then you have likely had enough sleep.

Grace and peace to you.

John

One of my kids was a light sleeper some of the time (there were also times when he couldn't be wakened!).  He was diagnosed with ADHD but we didn't medicate him and adjusted as much as possible to his differences. 

Understood, RevJohn.  Thanks

I too find that I need a certain amount of sleep.  I can go for a day, and still function, but i know after 16hrs that I need assistance to ensure that I am stil delivering quality material or adding value. Generally, I do my best to transition, as I find that fresh brains are better, if they are close to being equal.

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Thanks Kay.    How did that adjusting to his needs affect his adult lif? Was he forced to conform and capable of doing so, or....did he find a job that allowed him to be flexible.

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Chemgal -- what tricks have you heard your parents talk about in reference to you?

Don't parents use stun guns anymore?  What has this country come to?

Just some observations.  Some people are early risers, some are night people, and it seems the pattern is set from infancy.   

First child - fell into a deep sleep soon after he was put to bed and slept all night.   That is if you consider getting up at 6:00 am sleeping all night.   We didn't need an alarm clock - long before it was time to get up we would hear him dancing and shouting from his crib.  Before he was 18 months he could climb over the side and we would get up in the morning to find him sitting on the chesterfield, looking at picture books, and waiting for us  (I'm a light sleeper - I knew when he got up,even if I wasn't ready to).    And he always was ready for breakfast.

Second child - often awake as late as we were, whether we put her to bed earlier or not.  But she slept in.  Not just until 7:30 or 8:00 oclock when we would be bustling around getting breakfast, but until 10:00 or even later.   And regardless of when she got up she was cranky for the next hour or so, until she got fully awake.   And she was never hungry for breakfast.

First child gave up his naps shortly after a year old.  He simply wasn't tired in the day time.   If put in his room and told to be quiet - his little sister and I needed our naps - he would look at books or read (he could read from age 3), or play quietly with his toys.  

Second child, forced to get up with the family before she was ready, welcomed her afternoon nap until she started school.    Incidentally that afternoon nap didn't seem to be the reason she had trouble settling at night.  Keep her awake through her sleepy time in the afternoon and she was still wide awake in the evening.

Different kids - different sleep patterns.

Nevertheless, I think it is important to establish routines.  The world has definite ideas about when most people should be awake or asleep.   Families get up in the morning, have breakfast, do their routines.  Kids go to daycare or school.  Meals are available at regular times.   And most people sleep at night.  Very few parents go to bed (or to sleep) until their pre-teen (and early teen) children are safely in their beds.    So I'm all for regular sleep times.   Consider the child's personality and set a reasonable time, establish a bed-time routine, put them to bed.   You can't make them sleep, but you can insist that they stay in their room with lights out and no TV, computer, telephone, or electronic games.  

Get them up at a reasonable time for the rest of the family, and their needs.   Call a warning and five minutes later get them up - or make it clear that you expect them to be up and going about getting washed, dressed, out to the breakfast table.  

Until they start school, have a quiet time for part of the day.   Stay in room (or on chesterfield or another agreed upon area, read or play quietly, or nap.   You need the break even if they don't.   

Some kids have trouble sleeping.  They grow up to be adults who have 'white nights' when they just stay awake.   But they learn to live in a world where most people sleep during the nights and are awake during the day - or they choose a profession that allows them to work nights.  

Pinga - our 'adapting' to our ADHD child leaned heavily on lots of exercise, teaching coping strategies (and convincing others to let him use them!), very few rules (but they were the REALLY important things and were written in stone),  giving him as much control as possible over his life -"You have homework to do before supper" letting him decide when to start.  Bottom line - no supper until it is done.

Elementary school was difficult, but he had a few years with less rigid teachers who let him move around the room a bit, or tolerated his fidgetting with a pencil or something.  The teens and early twenties were pretty disastrous but now as a full adult he runs his own successful business.  Coping strategies are used a LOT, and he isn't shy about telling people why he needs to take a short break outside in the fresh air. 

From an early age he was very understanding of slow moving older people, younger kids, and various disabilities and this continues today.  He is kind, gentle, hard working and very thoughtful (I guess he's had lots of practise as he NEEDS to think before acting!)   He still has ADHD and is accident prone (when he forgets to stop and think!!)

I think the hardest thing about having a family member with ADHD is not stifling their creativity and not destroying their self respect.  It isn't the kid who is 'stupid' but the things they do are pretty stupid sometimes!

Kay - your hyperactive child sounds a lot like my children - especially my firstborn.  That is why I felt it important to establish a few important routines - but within them I tried to give freedom.   I never tried to force my children to sleep (as a person with insomia I know how impossible that it) but I insisted that they have quiet times.   He learned to occupy himself when others were napping - she learned to settle down in the evenings even though she herself was not sleepy.   Both learned that they were expected to get up when called, eat breakfast, and be out the door in time for school.   He eagerly awake and full of enthusiam for the new day - she barely speaking.   I trust that the walk in the fresh air had her alert by the time she reached school to socialize or start lessons.   And that the same walk settled him down a bit.

Pinga, I just remember rules about what I could and couldn't be doing at certain times.  I was read to for quite a while before bed, only quiet activities were allowed after a certain time.  When I got older, I spent a lot of time reading myself.  Then I had to lie down, whether or not I was asleep.  Even now, sometimes I find just lying down allows me to feel a bit rested, even if I don't drift off.

I learned to tell time at a fairly young age, and I wasn't allowed out of my room until a certain time, probably 7am or something.  I'm not 100% sure what was done when I was really young.  I think I just learned to do lots of quiet things to entertain myselft.