I'll bite.

I'm still curious as to why a queer teacher teaching phys ed would be 'icky'.

If a child of yours did have a queer teacher (especially for social studies, health or phys ed) what would you do?

If my child had a queer teacher, I think I'd probably go to meet the teacher night to say hi, then attend any parent-teacher conferences that are scheduled during the year.  At holidays, I would probably send a small gift, and I'd speak to the teacher about any issues that come up with my child's learning. 

Sounds like a good plan to me Mists!

I hope I got the quote thing right.

I have a theory that homosexuality has been a huge evolutionary benefit to the human species.  Each species has an evolutionary "strategy"...in some, like insects, the "strategy" is to have as many offspring as possible and hope that some of them will survive to adulthood and continue reproducing (I have put "strategy" in quotation marks because it's not the same as a strategy that we might plan out; it's basically what worked that got the species to where it is today.)  In humans, the successful "strategy" has been to have fewer offspring and put a huge amount of time and resources in to each offspring to ensure that offspring's survival to adulthood and reproduction.  In university I learned about the "grandmother hypothesis" that suggested that menopause has a positive impact on population growth because the woman who is no longer reproducing starts to put more energy in to her grandchildren, thus increasing their chances for survival.  It seems odd on the surface that infertility would lead to population growth, but if you look at the needs of human children, it's clear that more adults contributing to the welfare of fewer children will lead to a better likelihood of the children reaching maturity. 

That's when I started to consider the role of homosexuality in pre-history.  In a primitive setting in which there are no taboos about sexual orientation, and perhaps in which people don't yet understand how conception takes place, I suspect that most homosexuals would not reproduce.  They would, however, very likely still be part of some kind of tribal group and would share resources with their tribes/families.  By not having offspring of their own, but continuing to bring energy and resources in to the tribe, the homosexual relatives (like the menopausal grandmothers) further ensure the survival of the offspring.  It's one more adult looking out for the child, one more hunter or gatherer providing food, one more teacher to pass on skills, etc.  From this perspective, I would say that far from being abnormal and unnatural due to a sexual interest that doesn't lead to reproduction, that the homosexual individual is a very normal and natural positive addition to human reproduction who (historically) helped to raise but not sire children. 

*edited to split in to 2 paragraphs

Fair enough... just so long as you realize that reality, life, and the universe doesn't give a rat's ass whether you have decided what's true or not.

MC Jae - have you ever spent time getting to know a member of GLBTQ community in real life? Before I did, I felt much the same way as you - with one major exception: I never thought homosexuals were predatory or wanted to convert me. I did, however, feel very uncomfortable around them - "icky" if you will. I also had lots of questions - including wondering if homosexuality was a choice. There were three people who really changed that for me: all lesbians - one was my minister and two were friends. When I first met each of them, I thought they were straight, until they came out to me. I became comfortable asking them questions and they were honest in their answers. One of the questions I asked my friends was about homosexuality being a choice. I'll never forget the response of one of my friends: "Do you really think I would choose this knowing the persecution that comes along with it? Not a chance!"

I wrote this in the previous thread, but it bears repeating:

If you obsess about who other people are attracted to and are sleeping with behind closed doors, and you think this somehow makes them ineligible for, say, certain jobs, then you are waaaay more fucked up than they are.

I don't think straight teachers should prey on students. There's no evidence that I know of to suggest that isn't more likely than gay predators. A few high profile cases in recent years have involved straight woment teachers and adolescent boys… so there should be an outcry about straight teachers? This whole topic is really rather silly.

Several years ago I found myself listening to some people who were sharing their homophobia, and their thoughts on how to 'stop them being like that'.  I heard a range of  opinions - parents were blamed, abusive priests were blamed, lack of self control and discipline were blamed, lack of religious training was blamed, permissive schools were blamed.   I struggled to keep my thoughts to myself as I listened in amazement to the lack of actual knowledge.

Mists words make much sense to me. Stated in Christian terms my view could be summed up as " We should treasure the people who are GLBTQ.  Seems like they could  be God's gift to the overpopulated planet."

Imagine, MC jae, that the feelings you had when you first met and were getting to know your wife, and any other loves from your past. Remember the excitement, the desire to be with her intectually, emotionally, physically.  Did you make those feelings up - or did you just feel them.   Did you ever feel those same feelings for any of your male friends?  What if you had? 

Kay, I don't know why but this sounds offensive to me.

A few years ago I was invited to a local "prayer breakfast" by one of my more evangelical/conservative colleagues. Never being one to turn down a free meal, and being perfectly capable of praying, I accepted. It was during the 2008 federal election campaign. In that campaign, our local Conservative candidate was an anti-abortion, anti-gay marriage, former Christian Heritage Party candidate. One of his campaign workers was at the breakfast. He told me that I had to tell people from my pulpit to vote for this guy because he was the only one who was going to "stop the gays." "Stop them from doing what?" I asked in wide-eyed wonder. He didn't have an answer. He just walked away.

It's just a gut-level feeling chemgal.

I don't know. I would check with my wife to see what she wanted to do. I would talk to my child about the situation. Then I would try to come up with some kind of logical decision. I would respect the teacher's legal right to be working in the public school system.

Rich blessings.

Yes, somegal, I have.

Rich blessings.

Yes Baylacey, I both made them up and felt them -- they were my emotions. That being said, my desire to be with my wife was not a strictly emotional one. It was also based upon the inner guidance of the Spirit of God.

No.

n/a.

Rich blessings.

And that is my point.  In your heart and in your head you are drawn to women and not men.  That is the way you were built.  You did not choose it.  

Not everyone is built to be attracted to the opposite sex.    The n/a is a cop-out, in my opinion,  and allows you to close your mind to the possibility that you could have been born with your brain wired in such a way that you could have preferred men instead of women.  You would be in quite a pickle then, I think. 

Baylacey, no one's sexual orientation is a result only of the way they were built and wired.

That orientation is caused by genetics alone has never been soundly proven.

Most likely, we are attracted to whom we are because of a number of different factors -- not only biological, but also psychological and environmental.

Rich blessings.

I am curious - have you ever asked your gay friend(s)/acquaintance(s) about whether they chose to be that way, and if you have - what was their answer?

I don't have any gay friends or acquaintances right now in real life somegal.

I never asked that question to any that I had in the past. Actually, I don't believe I've ever had any gay friends.

Rich blessings.

mcjae,

I am not attracted to all males because just they are males.  There is a complex set of characteristics that they must possess in order for me to find them attractive in a way that I would consider them suitable as a mate.  Intelligence is high on the list.  It would not matter how  a female would rate as a suitable "catch"  I would never be attracted to her in the same way.  That is biology.  Genetics does not make a person gay.

MCJae - I hope that you would be open to becoming friends with a member of the queer community if such a person were to cross paths with you in real life. I really think you would learn a lot from them - and I suspect they would learn a lot from you too.

Right.  For example, I feel a little gay when I smell potpourri.

FFS, Jae.  If there was any truth to the environmental arguement, we could test it.  I don't care how many interior design courses I take - I'm still going to be attracted to women and the thought of touching another man is going to make me vomit.  For some other guys, it's going to be the opposite, no matter how many guns they fire.

[/quote]

I don't have any gay friends or acquaintances right now in real life somegal.

I never asked that question to any that I had in the past. Actually, I don't believe I've ever had any gay friends.

Rich blessings.

[/quote]

Chances are that there is someone in your life that is gay, McJae, and they don't feel safe telling you. 

MC Jae - I am not surprised - I don't mean this in a bad way - if you are verbal about your views most would stay clear. I do however; think you would benefit from getting involved somehow. God has obviously drawn you to this site and the United Church of Canada for a reason.  Perhaps for you to start thinking outside your comfort zone might be in order. 

How would you do this – I am thinking of something safe…not for you but those around you…why not try attending an MCC church – take your wife if you want to.  Stick around after and get to know a few folks, and yes, it may take more than once.    I think it would be really beneficial for you to “listen” and “experience” their life.  You post comments/viewpoints without knowing a thing about the “community”.

If you go with an open mind and heart, perhaps, God will place you with the right person…..but you have to LISTEN.  That’s it – LISTEN – use your counseling skills – LISTEN – no advice – LISTEN.  No viewpoint – LISTEN. 

Be prepared for rejection.  If you speak anything like you write you will have barriers to break down.  You have written some things at Wondercafe that some would consider hurtful. – Again, LISTEN.

If you aren’t prepared to do this – do you really have a valid voice for the opinions you share?

Others here might have other suggestions as to where you might go to meet the “community" OR they might say I am completely nuts! 

Quite; QED of what can happen when one's BS (belief system) is 'threatened'

Jae, I know that you think that I am too critical of you but over the last years you have flip flopped on this question so many times, I think you should be on Mitt Romney's team.

I think WonderCafe has become a playground for you. You, imo, have not changed, as much as everyone would believe. You are Fundamentalist in your beliefs and that has not changed.

Being a Evangelical Fundamentalist is fine and you are welcome here, but quit playing the games.

  Rich Blessings

CrazyHeart

Jobam,

you are completely nuts, embrace it, love, and enjoy your stay at the WC asylum :3

  Thank you...I needed that....rough day at the Rainbow Camp fundraising table.....

Thanks again InannWhimsey!!!!

Jae,

My reading of the situation, for what it's worth ... you are struggling with this issue!!!

I, for one, appreciate your honesty ... p3

Well I think that's fairly sound reasoning Mists if you want to look at the issue from a purely scientific and evolutionary kind of viewpoint.

I'm not so sure that it works so very well for someone like me who is a creationist. I mean in the way I see it in the beginning God made a man and a woman to be together. I think that was meant to be his basic blueprint for humanity.

I do realize that in Genesis there are two accounts of the Creation, and that in the first, the story of Adam and Eve isn't in there. Still, God tells the first men and women to ""'Be fruitful and multiply...'" -- Genesis 1: 28b (NKJV)

Rich blessings.

Okay... all righty then...

Witch, if others can trumpet their acceptance, or proclaim their disapproval, surely I can share my questioning.

Rich blessings.

Okay chansen, whatever.

Rich blessings.

Mike, of course straight teachers shouldn't prey on students. No teacher should prey on students as I'm sure you agree.

Like you, I also don't know of any evidence to suggest that gay teachers would prey any more than straight ones (or any less for that matter). It is, of course, an individual character issue.

Rich blessings.

McJae...if I understand correctly, you don't believe in evolution?  I wish you well on your journey, but I don't think we're going to have much headway in our conversations.

I do believe in microevolution ab penny, but not macro.

Rich blessings.

What is the mechanism that allows small incremental changes, but prevents those small changes from eventually resulting in large changes?

You're so far off base, and so far out of your league, it's embarrassing.

I don't have to know the mechanics involved, chansen, in order to believe that microevolution takes place and that macro- doesn't.

I'm not a neuroscientist either but somehow I believe you have a brain.

Rich blessings.

Deleted due to duplication.

Oh, wow, I don't know quite where that came from. Baylacey, really, I'm flattered, but as you yourself have already mentioned, I'm also married.

Wait. You're saying it is biology but it is not genetics?

Huh?

Rich blessings.

Biology is a huge field that doesn't just include genetics, Jae.

Well, I think it's pretty obvious, isn't it?  I mean, it seems very normal that people take a very special interest in what makes them happy and excited and sexually aroused, and whatever makes them sexually aroused, when done between consenting adults and behind closed doors, shouldn't really matter to anyone else.

After all, there are plenty of really quite extreme fetishes that many people find sexually stimulating, that may be done between two or more members of the opposite sex.  But these people don't let that affect them outside of the bedroom (or the basement dungeon).  Because that's done between members of the opposite sex, this apparently does not concern you.

However, once you determine that another person's orgasm is tied to activities with the same sex, your brain goes apoplectic and you think these people are not fit for certain teaching occupations.

Personally - and this may seem strange to you - I don't give a damn what turns you on.  Nothing interests me less than your sexual preferences.  It's not my place to ask, and as long as no one is being abused or coerced, no police force in Canada does, either.

And that's why it's my position, that if you need someone to have a certain type of sex life before they are qualified to hold certain jobs, then you are the one who's messed up.

mcjae, 

I will be the first to admit that my debating skills need work, but what is clearly obvious here is that you missed my point entirely.  I take responsibility for that. Let me try again. 

What I was trying to express is that there is a difference between sexual orientation and sexual behaviour.  The latter we can control and the former we cannot.  I do not believe that homosexuality is passed down genetically in the same way that blue eyes and brown hair are, and if there were a genetic component, it would likely be multifactorial and influenced by other environmental factors. 

I copied this bit from Wikipedia (sigh) but it sums it up neatly.

Biology and sexual orientation is the subject of research into the role of biology in the development of human sexual orientation. No simple, single cause for sexual orientation has been conclusively demonstrated. Various studies point to different, even conflicting positions, such as a combination of genetic, hormonal, and environmental influences,[1] with biological factors involving a complex interplay of genetic factors and the early uterine environment,[2] or no genetic influence.[3] Biological factors which may be related to the development of a heterosexual, homosexual, bisexual or asexual orientation include genes, prenatal hormones, and brain structure.

You say no one’s sexual orientation is determined by the way they are built.  There are many, many individuals who will disagree. What science debates is why the brains of homosexuals are different from the brains of heterosexuals, not that they are not different.  They are.

Like you,  I am heterosexual and always have been, and I expect to remain that way until the end of my days. I cannot imagine that your sexual preferences will change, (or mine) but I believe it is because your brain tells you that you are heterosexual (in terms of sexual orientation) and not because you tell yourself that you are (will only have sex with women.)  That is different from those who are unsure of their sexuality.  I know of several people who “switched teams” later in life, but admitted that they always knew, or at least questioned, that they were attracted to members of their own sex, but opted to live a life that they did not consider authentic in order to fit into the “societal norm.” In every case they were much happier and more content in the life they felt they were meant to lead. 

Yes we are attracted to the people we are because of a complex and often difficult to describe set of characteristics.  That ever elusive chemistry is right at the top.  Physical attractiveness, intelligence, kindness, tolerance, sense of humour, character, emotional availabilty are just a few of the characteristics which I find attractive.  When I find these traits in women, they make for great friends.  When I find them in men, they make for potential romantic partners.  I just feel different in the presence of men than I do in the presence of women, and it is a feeling that is difficult to put into words. That is how my brain works.

And while I read many of your posts and recognize that you have a degree of intelligence,  you are far from attractive to me.  Your being married has absolutely nothing to do with it.  

Of course it is chemgal. We all learn that in elementary school. However, I was surprised by the claim that sexual orientation was caused by biology but not genetics. If not genetics, then what?

Rich blessings.

Baylacey,

it sounds like you believe in, or something equivalent to, the human soul?

I think you're right chansen -- people do take a very special interest in what makes them happy and excited and aroused. I would add on to that though. I would also say that people take a very special interest in what makes them feel any kind of strong emotion, whether that be happiness, rage, sorrow, etc. People can also take a very special interest in something for a totally non-emotional reason.

As for anything that goes on between consenting adults, I feel that it's important to remember that human relationships are the building blocks of our society. What happens within them thus shapes our society and either strengthens it or weakens it.

Those things are not the topic of this thread that's all. If you want to start a new thread about them I may choose to participate.

No, I'm not overcome with anger. And I never said that they weren't fit for certain teaching positions. I did say that on an emotional level I would not like it if a queer teacher was teaching my child; the negative emotion stemming not from activities the teacher might be engaged in at home but rather from the interaction that the teacher might have with the children at school.  

Again, it is not about the kind of private sex life that anyone may have, it's about the influence people may have when at work, especially on vulnerable individuals. What about the children.

Rich blessings.

It's not known yet, but there's probably a whole host of factors involved.

Genetics, environment in the womb, hormones produced, social factors etc. etc. etc.

Sexuality is on a continuum.  Maybe genetics puts someone closer to one end or the other, but it doesn't mean genetics alone will determine who someone is attracted to.

It's like muscle mass, sure, genetics plays a role, but so does health, diet, and exercise.

chemgal, (or others),

Can you say more on "sexuality is on a continuum"?

I've only had sex with myself (one consenting adult)  or else with men (one at a time)!

Women's bodies don't attract me and I don't desire to touch their "naughty bits" - but, I've often wondered why I find some women's company exciting -and they seem kinda special to me?

Is this what you mean by on a continuum?

Also, I don't understand how health , diet and exercise play a part in your sexual preference?

Believe me possum, I don't think eating more vegetables or running around the block will make the slightest difference to any aspect of my sexuality.

On the other hand it's interesting to speculate that  the reason for all these young folk I see obsessively exercising and watching their diet is because (gulp) they are intent on changing their sexual preference.

as usual Pilgrims Progress, awesome fun :3

There really doesn't have to be a Reason for who we want to 'dance' with ;3 -- we have the tendency to give reasons or 'conscious agency' to everything.

"Hey look, that leaf is flipping around in the wind -- there must be some leaf-flipping creature inside it doing that..."

and so on

When it comes to diet and sexuality - hey you never know! :)

I think there are others more well versed on the sexuality continuum, but basically at one end you have people who are only ever attracted to the same sex, in the middle are people who are attracted to both sexes equally and on the other end are people who are only attracted to the opposite sex.

Some people who most would consider to be straight probably have been interested in someone of the same sex, some may have even 'experimented' at some point.  I have some more conservative Christian male friends who would fit here (no experimentation though), and interestingly they describe those feelings as temptation and think that homosexuals are just people who gave into that temptation.  I imagine many gay and lesbian people have experienced the opposite, they for the most part are attracted to the same sex, but there are a few instances where they were interested in the opposite sex.  As you move more to the centre, most would use the term bisexual, but these people tend to prefer one sex more frequently.

I'm not sure if physical characteristics are included on the continuum or not; where on the extreme ends people are only attracted to very masculine males or very feminine females.