Unfortunately for the world, Mr. Harper IS living up to his religious beliefs. Having had the unfortunate experience of being raised one myself, I know of where he comes. It's much more of a brainwashing experience than anything else, and if you come into this world with the gift of logic, it's a very scary thing to be exposed to. I was a constant source of prayer, since I used to bother them by asking the tough questions, such as... don't you actually have to live like one of Christ's followers in order to be considered one of his, and therefore be one with God? They would always squash those questions as quick as they could. It was always explained to me that we as humans had absolutely no ability to walk in his footsteps, since we're not God, only Jesus is, so that's why he was sent to die for us. We were to be so thankful that he did that, since by dying he took the burden away from us terrible sinners. All you have to do is say the prayer, ask Jesus into your heart, and then he would do all the rest, wash you clean as snow, and get you to heaven guaranteed. There was always an awful lot of allowance there as to what Jesus then allowed the Evangelicals to do, it's pretty much anything, just not the other guy, cause he never bothered to say the prayer and come to their church. They can ask for forgiveness every night with a guarantee, cause they are stupid sinners, and that's why Jesus is around to clean up after them, and they're then allowed to carry on as before, cause it's not their fault God made them the way they are. This then allows them to be so so excited about this wonderful guy named Jesus, cause he keeps placing them on such a huge high, by being such a forgiving guy.

They then make it very important for your continued soul survival to be at the church as much as humanly possible for Bible studies, prayer groups, sing-songs, social groups etc., where they can keep reinforcing that they're the only ticket to God, and to teach you that you're now supposed to shun the other guy, since he was too stupid to say the prayer, and will therefore never ever make it to heaven, so you shouldn't be seen hanging around him cause he's the one who will lead you to hell.

They have an extremely strong belief, that since they are the holy ones, and everyone else is garbage, they will be raptured out of here any day now to meet Jesus up in the sky, since they said the prayer, and in the meantime they must show how much they love Jesus by going around pointing their fingers at everyone else around them cause those people are now the sinners, and therefore need to pay the price. Omar is considered a sinner in Harper's eyes, since Stevie would never ever get himself involved in any situation like that, since he's a wonderful Evangelical and therefore blessed and protected by God.

We've watched Evangelicals in action for the last 8 years in the States. Why would they act any different in Canada? You can never convince them that they are wrong about anything, because they have Jesus on their side, as well as the Holy Book that they keep shoving in your face. The only verses they use in sermons and talks, are the ones that damn the other guy, because he's not currently sitting in their church and therefore is an unprotected sinner. Satan is everywhere, and they are constantly pointing out just where he is. They spend no time actually looking at the words of Jesus, since no one can be like him anyway, because it's not humanly possible, because he wasn't really a human being, so why bother. I'm really surprised that I wasn't crazy by the time I was old enough to leave the family home, and therefore not be required to be in those churches all the time. I am now guaranteed to go to hell, since I have chosen to be more welcoming of others and forgiving in my life, and am therefore the fallen one who is now out there socializing with the heathens. The experience turned me into a life long Jesus lover, and a life long religion hater. Churches actually give me the shivers. I might even have some post traumatic stress syndrome, for all I know.

Mr. Harper's response to Global Warming has also been extremely Evangelical, because Jesus wants them all to have lots of money, because that's how Jesus now shows his love. The more they have, the more he loves them. He wants them to buy lots and lots of things, and they get to do that in North America, cause they live in the "New Zion", because there are more Evangelicals here who have said the prayer, and are therefore rich. Jesus is planning to rescue them with a rapture before Global Warming consumes the rest of us sinners, cause he likes them the best, so they have nothing to worry about. They can carry on doing as they please. Place that along with a strong belief that the world is actually only 6 thousand years old, and was created in 6 days, and welcome to our current planet!

The most unfortunate part about all of this, is that after watching the world fall apart during the last 8 years because of these darling Evangelicals and their wonderful faith based beliefs I've had more than enough. It seems that in the last 2000 years, Jesus has decided that he loves torture and killing, he hates abortion, homosexuals, premarital sex, he doesn't think women deserve equal rights, etc. etc. etc. He also hates all other religions, since they're stupid enough to believe in another name for God. I personally went through that one, since I happened to "stumble" and date a Muslim in my youth - OOPS!!!. Try to keep the family happy over that one - prayer meetings for my eternal soul galore!!!

So, in these situations as in all others that I've watched Harper in, he IS acting exactly like an Evangelical. They have programmed themselves not to care, not to share, and not to love. There is never a requirement to place themselves in the other guy's shoes, nor are they supposed to, cause if the other guy weren't such an idiot, he'd be sitting in their church with them.

I personally think that all the souls on the earth at this time of world crisis, need to pray with them that they get their rapture. They want it so badly, and I'm starting to want it for them too. The only problem is I don't think it's going to be Jesus that they meet up there in the sky........., since when I read Jesus' words, as well as Revelations, they seem to be embodying the souls who are going to get thrown off of the planet in the end anyway. When I live in a world that feels it appropriate to spend a trillion dollars a year on war but can't come up with a penny for Global Warming, and it's the Evangelicals that are running the governments that are deciding that our current priorities are to now be involved with torture as well as continuing to hate and kill in Jesus' name, I think it's about time for them to leave. My little brain is starting to have just a little bit of difficulty continuing to come up with reasons why I should continue to love them and forgive them. I realize that they're being brainwashed, but they're willingly walking into those buildings, and I'd started to figure out that their message was the complete opposite of Jesus by the time I was seven. I'm now asking, but God... do I really have to keep forgiving? Can't you just make them go away? My faith then tells me, that some day soon that is exactly what will happen. I'm sitting here hoping that my faith gets rewarded tomorrow!!!  

Thank you for your post.  Who is "they" exactly?  Your parents, family, husband, church leaders - or all of those?  In other words, how can you be sure your experience is representative of all Evangelicals, if I may be so bold to ask?

Hi goldengirl - in another part of your post, you wondered about post-traumatic stress syndrome. I have come out of a somewhat similar, if not as intense an experience, as you with evangelical beliefs (not isolated to one congregation, either). I do think it's likely that you are suffering from PTSD, in some form or another. I would encourage you to consider finding someone with whom you can safely process your experiences and losses before worrying about forgiving. That will come in its time -- you need time to find your equalibrium after your life-time of crazy-making, which is how I, too, experienced evangelical religious life.

I still have times and places where I react, after 17 years, but I don't think I've ever really processed the pain of condemnation and exclusion that I went through in those environments. Perhaps I should take my advice to you, too.

Thanks for your thoughts on Stephen Harper. I think you are right that much of his agenda is shaped by his religion but perhaps his upbringing and natural inclinations also mean that his religious framework is a choice and a good fit, from his point of view. It's hard to know, from the outside, what is going on for him. All we can do, as Canadians, is decide, what we will accept from him now that his true colours have been exposed to all (not just those of us who follow politics intensely).

It was my parents, my family, and my church leaders. I thank God for being blessed with a husband who thinks as I do, thereby giving me a huge buffer and a way out. My family accepts and loves my husband since he's an extremely lovable guy. Another strong Evangelical belief is that the man is the head of the house and that his word is final, and my husband doesn't believe in religion either. My parents have now left the Evangelical environment as well, however other members of my family are still very Evangelical. All that I've ever been exposed to in those buildings has been hypocrisy, and a total and complete lack of love for one another, even amongst the ones within the building. I've only been to two church services in my entire life where I enjoyed them, and agreed with the message. When you are being raised that way, and you think completely the opposite, it is extremely difficult on you. You try to zone out as much as you can, since you're forced to be there, but every so often your ears offend you to the extent that you have to react to it, and when you do, you know you're once again going to be squashed like a bug. You are aware of that before you speak, so you learn to pick your battles. I missed out on having a childhood because of that upbringing.

I was very musical so I had many, many experiences where I was also in other Evangelical environments, since either I personally or a choir I was involved with would sing and play at the other churches, and then listen to their sermons. I was only allowed to go to Evangelical type camps during the summer. They only wanted me to play with children who went to our church, or the larger family of Evangelicals. All of my other friends would have their parents picked apart for me at the dinner table, so I could see why they weren't good enough, and so therefore neither were their children. I'd have to sneak around and lie to my parents in order to play with my friends, since most of the children at the church also believed in cutting up everyone else around them, so I never enjoyed playing with them. They were also really boring. Our family spent every summer at an Evangelical resort, where Evangelicals would come from all over North America to get the summer dose of how God only loves them, and everyone else comes from the devil.

When I was growing up, we were to shun the Jews since they were the ones who killed Jesus. A Jew will never get to heaven, unless he finally accepts Jesus into his heart and says the prayer. I had some Jewish friends, so I was made fully aware of where they were going when they died. Now the Evangelicals have decided to support the Jews in their wars, since they believe that a physical Temple of Solomon must be rebuilt on Temple Mount before the end of the world can arrive, cause that's what the Bible says,  and you can't rebuild that church with those Muslims still hanging around there. They will never stop to ponder that Jehovah also told the Jews not to kill, or that Isaac and Ishmael were both sons of Abraham, and therefore brothers. 

When I was eleven, I won a trip to Guatemala, through an organization called Children's International Summer Villages. We had a camp where children from all over the world gathered to learn that we are all one. When I returned and tried to spread that message, I became a huge focus for prayer, since I must have had demons enter me down there. We are not all one, since only the Evangelicals have it right. My new Buddhist friend was going to lead me to hell, cause that's where she was currently headed cause she believed in reincarnation. 

When I dated the Muslim, and tried to explain that as far as I was concerned, their message came from the same place, since they had all the same prophets, and Islam is also based on peace, love, fellowship and understanding, the prayers started in earnest again. Mohammed came from the devil, because Allah allowed him to kill in defense. Meanwhile, the Evangelicals believe that Jesus allows them to kill on his behalf, even though there is no verse giving them that authority. They believe in preemptive attach, as we have seen. They believe in huge military strength and they believe in using it. Since I couldn't understand the logic behind that one, I used to call them on it. I would get glares, and be told that I was naive and stupid to think we were supposed to love each other. It's impossible. The other guy's a jerk. Satan is everywhere. That's why Jesus is going to come and save them any day in a rapture, and then the rest of the world will all go to hell, since that's where we belong anyway, cause we're out there loving the sinners, thereby causing sin to continue.

Gandhi is also currently wallowing in hell according to the Evangelicals, since he never bothered to ask Jesus into his heart, and he had the opportunity to do that while he was still alive and he chose not to.

It's one thing to think that way and sit in a corner. It's another thing to think that way and be in charge of an entire country, especially a country that has always prided itself on being welcoming, tolerant and peace loving. Evangelicals have a sneaky way of being able to stick together in their hatred, since they are all able to enjoy their lives so much with all their money and toys and the added security that the prayer provides. They have a huge solid network in place, and they are trained to believe what the preacher tells them to believe, and to vote how the preacher tells them to vote. They are not supposed to think or reflect, since that shows weakness of faith. Reflection is for the sinner who is currently out there stumbling because he's still not quite ready to accept the truth of Jesus and the prayer. It's worked for them so far, and has gotten them everything that they've wanted. They would rather condemn over the 5 verses that say homosexuality is a sin, since they don't seem to be blessed with the ability to follow the tons and tons of verses that tell you to love your brother, and to put yourself in his shoes. An Evangelical is saved from ever having to think about doing that. Besides, it does actually say 5 times in the Bible that homosexuality is a sin, so therefore everyone out there who has decided to love the homosexual is sinning and will be condemned as well. They are somehow able to continue twisting each and every argument that you come at them with because of that Holy Book, and their incredibly warped interpretation of it.

Finally you just have to come to the conclusion that if they really want to continue hating everyone around them and destroying God's earth, they'd better soon be given the opportunity to do it somewhere else, because in the meantime they are quickly sucking the life and love that this world has to offer right out of it, since they've somehow managed to place themselves in charge. Growing up in that environment, it actually boggles the mind how they were even able to pull that off. We also by the way, weren't supposed to go into the field of science while I was growing up, since evolution is also a condemned belief, and Satan would lead us astray if we had to associate with those heathens. Getting to know God better by learning about the marvels of creation was sinning, because then we were trying to figure out God's creation, and that's his business. Mr. Harper could use a dose of Biology 101, and quick. The enduring belief of an Evangelical is that they will never ever be held accountable for anything that they do in their lives because of saying that prayer. They will never have to go through the day of judgement because they have read the Book, and they know that they're right. They are now able to have the honor and the glory both in this life and in the life to come, guaranteed. They've been washed by the blood of the Lamb. That's why they don't ever bother to read Jesus' words, cause if they did, they would know that he keeps telling them to do the complete opposite, and they certainly don't want to ever listen to that garbage. That's sissy stuff!

To Golden Girl:  First, thank you very much for the time and energy you've put into your reply.   It must be very difficult for you to relive those events by writing about them.  I appreciate your efforts very much in helping us to understand why you feel the way you do about Evangelicalism.  I know almost nothing about the subject, and clearly that's been a big omission in my education about the world around me.  I am very sorry about your painful childhood.  I hope you don't mind if I ask, but would you mind talking about the two Evangelical sermons that you did enjoy and the message in them with which you agreed?  It's just that they stand out as the one bright spot in your account, and that made me very curious to learn their nature.  But only if and when the telling of them won't give you more stress.  Best wishes for your healing.  Marnie Tunay  Fakirs Canada

Goldengirl - I really enjoyed reading your posts and I'm glad you wrote them.  Usually, I don't read all the way through the long ones.  I hope you have some good friends to walk this journey and keep learning from.  I've seen you here on the cafe before, right? 

So, Omar is screwed as long as Harper is here.  I believe you're right.  And I believe in caution too, but I think this case is pretty clear and Omar should come home.  Geezzz there are so many reasons for the Coalition to take over.

To Fakirs Canada - Thank you for your kind thoughts. You are absolutely right about the stress of writing it down, since it takes me back and makes me relive it all over again. Watching our Prime Minister acting it out, when we should be focusing on overcoming differences and working together during these times, is very scary and heart wrenching for me. It's the technique of divide and conquer, that I was constantly exposed to growing up. I feel that my country is being ripped apart right in front of me, by someone who obviously couldn't care less about us, and the stress of that makes me sick. It takes me back. It's based on, "I know better than you, and because I do, I'm going to take your voice away."

Unfortunately, the bright spot in the two church services, were not Evangelical. There has never ever been a service of theirs that I have ever enjoyed. I believe that we come into this world in order to become closer to God, whom I perceive to be love, so any church that continually tells me that I can only become closer to God by shunning and hating my fellowman, doesn't get my vote. We have two different versions of God, theirs and mine, and I like mine better.

The first service that I enjoyed was at a United Church. It was on Earth Day, and we lived in a border city at the time. The church was going to be involved in a walk across the bridge to the States, and the minister talked about how we as Christians should live our lives in the world, and it was a wonderful and beautiful message of unity, respect for each other, and God's earth. The second service was at my parent's new church which is a modern type of Mennonite. There was a girl there who had been raised in another faith. She had been sexually abused along with six other girls by her minister during their confirmation classes. When it came time to get their Bibles at the end of the course, she refused to take the Bible from him, in front of the whole congregation, and because of that the abuse came to light. She left religion for many years, and later befriended someone who belonged to my parents new church. She decided to go there with her friend, and because of the love and acceptance she felt from attending that church, she decided to get baptized and become a member there, and the service was on Easter Sunday. That church baptized by sprinkling water, but she wanted to go through the submersion baptism. The church looked around to see if they could rent some other church that had those facilities for the service, but came to the conclusion that it wouldn't be the same. They decided to have an old cast iron bath tub delivered, and they placed it in the centre of the church. We all gathered around in a circle, and she was baptized. The outpouring of love one for another that I experienced during that service was amazing and incredible, and something that I'll never forget. That church is in another city from where we live, but I am ever so happy that my parents are now members there. 

To Birthstone - I actually haven't been on the cafe before. I joined to reply to Fakirs Canada, since it was on a subject that I'm an expert on, even though I wish that were not true. Now that I'm here though, I think I'm going to stay.

The coalition is suddenly also becoming just a tiny bit scary for me, since Canadians didn't seem to want the soft spoken man well versed on the environment to lead it, and Bob Rae has now stepped aside. We are left with a man who also thought invading Iraq was a great idea, believes in an even stronger military force, and has written papers on the need and use of torture in our present day society. Yippy!!! That's just a smarter version of Harper. I don't think Omar will be any better off with him.

Can anyone tell me why we seem to have this growing need to spend more and more money killing each other? How long will we continue letting boys be boys? Haven't they had about all the fun they can handle yet? Is this what we are evolving into as Canadians? Is this the vision of leadership that we want? Do we really have the desire to destroy our planet over hate, and our inability to get our priorities straight? Please wake me up when this insanity is over, and Elizabeth is finally in charge. I think it's due time for a woman's touch. Please come and save us now!  

Welcome to wondercafe, Golden Girl!  Thank you very much for your last post, especially for the trouble you took to answer my question about your positive experiences.  

As for your political comments:  I'm not familiar with Michael Ignatieff's history, so after I read your post, I checked him out and found what you are talking about, I think:  his book, 'The Lesser Evil: Political Ethics in an age of Terror.'  (The interested may read a sample chapter here:  press.princeton.edu/chapters/s7578.html )  It's a devilishly clever rationale for the politics of pragmatism; and the justification of the ends by the means.  He's very close in mind-set to Stephen Harper, I think.  If he comes into power, though, it will be difficult for him to not repatriate Omar Khadr, I think, because both the Liberal and the NDP parties have called for his repatriation.  But they won't come into power.  I don't think the majority of Canadians have forgiven the Liberals for Adscam, nor have the Liberals as yet shown any signs of coming up with a credible plan for Canada.  I disagree with you about Dion.  I think he's a bloody fool who torched the come-back chances of the Liberals by stubbornly refusing to step down as party leader a year ago, after substantial numbers of Canadians had made it abundantly clear they did not and never would accept him as a national leader.  If Ignatieff or Rae had been allowed to lead the party a  year ago, the Liberals might well have come back into power.  I spoke with many people who told me they hated Harper but didn't see a credible alternative.

To Fakirs Canada - I actually agree with you about Dion. He is definitely not leader material, and I was very surprised when the Liberals picked him and then kept him on. He is no match for Harper's bully tactics. The point I was trying to make though, is that his message was on the right track as far as I was concerned, so I was stunned that right after the election, the Liberals wanted to drop his ideas as well as him, and Ignatieff is now the choice. Which is the greater evil?

You've probably noticed during my posts that I am a strong environmentalist. The ability to continue breathing is a big issue for me, and my son has told me that he would like to get married some day and have children, and I would like his wish to come true. I feel that a quick switch in our thinking as Canadians from continuing to pump money into dying industries, of which I feel war is one of them, to growth industries that protect the environment and stimulate employment at the same time, is what we must do. I feel that any leader who isn't aware of that by now, does not have faith in Canada, and is not living on the same planet that I am. Canada is full of amazing talent and brainpower. We have always been world leaders in the past in that regard. We should start using that energy again, and look forward instead of backward. We should make love not war.