graeme
Palestine - asking the right question
Posted on: 02/04/2009 22:35
We already have a very long thread on Palestine. I have often added to it, and it has probably said as much as can be said for now. But what has bothered me from almost the start is that we may have been neglecting the christian perspective in shaping our thoughts. We have talked almost exclusively about bringing peace to the region and, by connection, who is responsible for what is going on.
Then, just minutes ago, I read a topic begun by reverend murray in the spiritual questions section. He was talking about the futures of the church (es), and he raised the point that in dealing with this, we often ask the wrong questions. That rather jolted me. So I blatantly now steal his idea. Have we been asking the wrong questions about Palestine and Israel? If we are, what should the right question be?
That's when it occured to me to wonder how, as a Christian, I should pose the question.
In that context, it seemed to me the starting point is surely the people of Palestine. These are the ones who have suffered so far the most over the past sixty years and more that i cannot imagine what other group in that region we should start with. In material things - housing, food, jobs, their position is far the worst. Their power to help themselves, at nil, is close to unmatched in the world. Add to that the reality that their future is utterly hopeless in every respect.
Surely, the starting point for any (Chrsitian) discussion is not the political one of how we bring peace. Even peace here is only a means to an end. Surely, the starting question has to be how do we help these people? What is the most effective approach to take? If they can be helped, then we are long way to peace. If they cannot be helped, then there will never be peace. In any case, surely a Christian should begin with the issue of helping people, not with constructing policial settlements.
I welcome all our secular humanists, witches, etc., since i've always found their spiritual focus to be at least as sharp as ours. They're wrong, of course. But not in any way that interferes with them coming to eminently christian decisions. (It's the Christians who tend to wander.)
graeme
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Birthstone
Posted on: 02/05/2009 08:21
I just read your last post in the other thread too. Both together are compelling.
I don't think that the political concerns should be set aside, but putting them in the context of the living situation of Palestinians in Gaza changes the game a bit.
Imagine if Christians (ok - great people with a heart & a belief in helping their neighbour) flooded into Gaza and started helping. Initially, its food & medicine. Secondly, its rebuilding & schools. Anyway, will Israel have the guts to blow them all up? When the aid workers have a strong presence? And then Israel faces the fact that the Aid workers are supporting Palestine. Would Israel then listen to some solutions?
charity without justice is not enough. Being Christian without being political is not enough either.
graeme
Posted on: 02/05/2009 13:28
That is the sort of thing I (more vaguely) had in mind, to take specific action related to the sufferiing in Gaza. To take military action against Israel land or against leadership in Gaza is a government decision at the international level that should have been taken sixty years ago and more..... But it wasn't done. We should still agistate for that but witih chances of action slim, we should be looking at the immediate problem.
graeme
Mr_Sayers
Posted on: 02/05/2009 14:32
How many years out of those 60 you speak of has Israel been left at peace?
Birthstone
Posted on: 02/05/2009 15:45
graeme
Posted on: 02/05/2009 22:16
How many of those years out of 60 has Israel invaded or bombed or blockaded Palestine?
How many of those years out of 60 has Palestine invaded or bombed or blockaded Israel?
How many Israelis have died as a result of Palestinian action? How many have been arrested? How many have been tortured?
How many Palestinians have died or been arrested or tortured as a result of Israeli action?
How much money does Israel have to help its disadvantaged? How much money does Palestine have to help its disadvantaged?
Besides, Israeli does get billions of aid every year. Most of its defence budget is a gift from the US. Virtually all that military equipment used against Palestine was supplied by the US.
Wouldn't you agree that aid should begin with those who most need it?
The idea is to have states on both sides which are economically viable. Without that, it's hard to see how any political settlement will work. Israel is economically viable. It's Palestine that's the basket case.
graeme
Birthstone
Posted on: 02/06/2009 00:06
Graeme, I firmly believe this, however, read what I wrote carefully. I wrote it exactly as I meant it. As Christian, I am not going to discriminate between suffering persons based on their culture or religion.
Birthstone
Posted on: 02/06/2009 00:08
[quote=Birthstone]
oops double post
graeme
Posted on: 02/06/2009 09:32
Oh, I have no quarrel with that. Indeed, my whole point is we should not spin our wheels arguing over who started it. For openers, it was not started by anyone who is living now. It certainly was not started by the child, any child, who is injured or starving.
Mr. Sayers was taking us back to a bog where we arguing interminably over who started it, whose fault it is. But when you see a child struck down by a car, you don't begin by conducting an enquiry to find out whose fault it was. You begin by helping the child.
My point on giving aid to Palestine is simply that we normally focus aid where it is most needed. If Israel had no hospitals, no doctors, bombed out houses and schools. no supplies of food or fuel or clothing or medecine, then of course I would suggest aid for Israel.
graeme
Motheroffive
Posted on: 02/08/2009 16:21
The Christian Peacemakers are about to send a delegation to "...meet with human rights representatives and peace workers on both sides of the conflict..."
I think their work is commendable and fits what you are describing, graeme. Although I couldn't go on a delegation now, I will try to send some funds in support and would like to get involved in this work at another time in my life.
birthstone_
Posted on: 02/08/2009 16:27
That is good news Mo5. Prayers for them.
graeme
Posted on: 02/08/2009 18:05
it is good news, and we shall need all of it we can get. it looks as t hough Israel will be takiing a dangerous turn for all of us in the coming elections.
graeme
LBmuskoka
Posted on: 02/08/2009 20:07
Very interesting MotherofFive.
For those interested in learning more click CPT Palestine Projects
birthstone_
Posted on: 02/09/2009 07:58
I saw that Israel seems to be supporting a right turn -!!! really?
birthstone_
Posted on: 02/09/2009 08:03
very brave people - do they have much impact?
Motheroffive
Posted on: 02/09/2009 11:39
I just found a blog entry from our Emerging Spirit website from someone I know who recently participated in a delegation, although this entry was written before he left.
Here's a paper on CPTs that's quite honest and interesting. Birthstone, if you recall, 4 members of a CPT delegation were kidnapped in Iraq a few years ago -- this paper talks about that but there is quite a lot on the internet if you want to know more.