The diversity was what stood out for me as well....and the tears....silent...little ones...which were wiped away so others wouldn't see...and for those where they ran more freely, kleenex offered by the stranger next to them.

The children in formal attire for a funeral, the couple holding each other during the gospel portion....the woman in front of me, laying her head on her husbands knee..and being gently held in her sadness.....the older folks dancing to rise up.

Then, there was the power moments, the ones where the crowd, celebrated the life, and comitted to remembering the vision.

I have held off posting because my thoughts seem to go against the grain.

Personally, in life I saw Jack as little different than most other politicians.  He played the game well.  But he played the game just like Harper and Ignatieff et al.

Years ago Bob Edwards (a newspaperman in the early years of Alberta) commetned that the difference between a politician and a statesman was that the latter was dead.  [given his acerbic nature Edwards went on to suggest that we need more statesmen].  I have seen this happening with Layton's death.

It is entirely possible Jack caught the winds of a change in people's minds and hearts.  It is equally possible he benefitted from the incompetence that has reigned in the Liberal Party for the last decade and that should the Liberals come to their senses the NDP will fade back to a strong 3rd party.  Only time will tell.

I agreed with much of the NDP platforms.  But I never saw Jack as anything other than a politician playing the political game.  And as has been mentioned in another thread, he is not a politician who (maybe becauser of a premature death that left him little chance) made major changes in the Canadian Political landscape.

GordW, I was never a fan of Jack.  My memories of him are coloured by living in Toronto as he made his rise up the political ranks.  I personally didn't like his confrontational style at that time.

But then I discovered, as with most people, there was more to the man than the cover image.  I discovered Jack, like me, grew up.

I was very surprised to learn that Layton was one of the originators of the White Ribbon campaign.  I don't remember that being well publicized either at the time or later in Layton's career.

As well, I discovered that he was very involved with his riding and the community itself.  The people who lived there saw him in action.  They saw a different side than the 30 second sound bite broadcasted to the nation.

Was Layton a political animal - of course he was.  He had to be to make it where he ended.  I am even sure he sacrificed some principles to get there, as we all do.  But I have come to the conclusion that he was also a man who stuck to his core values and in the end that is what will be remembered.

As, hopefully, it is what is remembered for all of us.

LB

---------------------

In the end, a person is only known by the impact he or she has on others.

       Jim Stovall

i don't feel that all the posts here should be positive, really... jack layton was only human, after all.  he made mistakes, crappy decisions, and blunders just like anyone else does.

but i want to thank you for holding off a few days... i am in a much better place to discuss the flaws now than i was last week!!!

me too, sighs...at least I am less overwhelmed and sad than I was last week.. The thing is...he did bring the country together in mourning, and made many people realize what their true values are...and what they want to see happen in politics. Less dirty game playing, more cooperation, more care and common concern for common folks and those in need, less pandering to wealthy and corporate interests.. Young people are the future, and Jack, in death maybe more than in life...made some of them realize that, and that they matter. He brought people out of complacency. I hope it stays that way. I recognize that the man had flaws as we all have...but do not want it to take away from the momentum of this phenomenon.  Young people are looking for hope, because what's going on seems hopeless. As soon as we start looking for things to criticize...we start to hack away at the ideals that people are embracing. I'd rather not talk about his flaws. He's passed on. I'd rather remember him for his strengths and his good natured qualities.

I hope this thread doesn't turn into Jack bashing for the reasons mentioned above. Maybe there should be another thread for discussing Jack Layton's flaws.

That's awesome, Morning Calm. I love it! Thanks for that.

lol!!  thank you, mc... i have been looking for that image for awhile now!!

I just heard and interview with Olivia Chow that she will not be running for the leadership. I wonder if that will get a response from all the guttersnipes of journalism who said she was using his death for her own ambitions.

Gord, quality is relative. Who would you say has been more honest, concerned with others, and more trustworthy than Layton in national politics over recent years? Who has more fully shown a Christian impulse?

Jack Layton did bring in an NDP opposition government. Never been done before. That was an accomplishment! People say he never did anything big because we never got to see him do it (at the national level). It's up to us to keep the momentum going and not just give up on the idea that we have of Jack because he's gone. It's up to us to do it, and up to a new leader to do it with our confidence That's pretty obvious to me. No point in cutting Jack Layton down. He's not here to defend himself.

 I am sure he was highly influential and motivated and negotiated  a whole bunch of policies we don't know about. I'm sure he worked with others to help to improve existing policies even though he may not have made them directly. He was a cooperator not a dictator.

Jack could also be credited for bringing in a Conservative Majority government.  OR Liberal incompetence could be blamed for both.

My point is that time will tell how much of a difference any of us make in the world.  HEre is another way of looking at it.  If he had not died but had resigned and retired, would he be as sainted?  If he did none of those and the NDP gains were negated in the next election would he be as sainted?  We have a tendency to idealize (or, more rarely, demonize) people upon their death, particularly a deaht that is counted as early.  I am sure Layton was a person of integrity.  But then I also believe HArper sees himself as a person of integrity.  I think he was highly capable as a politician.  But I don't thnk he was all that some people saw him as.  And that is fine.

You're welcome kimmio and sighs. I was active in Star Trek fandom in Toronto when a festval was held to celebrate Trek's 40th anniversary in 2006. A number of politicians in Toronto were asked to attend. The only one I recall actually coming was Jack Layton. He came in Next Generation uniform. I was so impressed by him that he would identify himself with a group of Torontonians in this way. I thought it was so great that he would identify with us when the others stayed away.

Gord - please name us another federal political figure of the last decade or so whose death would evoke the same reaction.

graemme,

\until they die we never know.

a month ago would you have predicted that reaction to layton's death?

Timing is everything.....the state of the country, the time of the year, the experience of the election all played a part....as did his history....we can argue on whether it was real or not....or accept how it made us feel, what it caused us to do..and how we respond going forward.

People seemed more interested in this last election than ever before...people felt there was so much more at stake. Layton won the opposition for the NDP because of him, not because of his party. It was a historical change. That was a big accomplishment that reflects strongly upon him.

I think the huge reaction of the public was a reaction to possiblity of loss of the values and ideals that Layton stood for. People were not only sad, but afraid. People realized how much they connect with the real issues that Layton worked for. His death was symbolic for many...first symbolic of a loss of hope...then significant as a commitment to renewed hope...whether that seed of hope was ever fully grown into something substantial by Layton's work at the federal level before his death or not. What was realized was that there is a lot of work to do to make Canada better and the world better, and it's not going to get done through complacency.  Layton started the ball rolling, and we need to keep the hope and the effort alive.

Wow...I didn't intend it, but when I read what I just wrote, I realized what Christian symbolism there is in my interpretation of what happened. I realize Layton is not the second coming, but the symbolism is relevant for me.

Jack's last message to the public tapped into our core emotions, and he didn't do it to score points for his own political success, obviously.  He was dying. He did it because he cared. I can't recall another Canadian politician who has done anything close to that. He encourgaged us to be loving, hopeful and optimistic, because he knew how many of us are feeling angry, fearful, and desperate. That was a Christian message that even non-Christians could identify with. Good on him.

Okay, Gord. Tell me a Canadian politician of the last twenty years (make that a hundred years) whose death HAS aroused such a response.

closest are Trudeau and Diefenbaker

And I maintain that part of the difference is a) the difference in how we as a society have changed in terms of public mourning; b) the fact that both were retired from active politics; and c) they died at an older age, when it was seen as acceptable.

What were people really mourning?  Most did not know Layton so were they mourning him or what they felt he represented?

 Neither Deif not Trudeau came even close in public mourning. Nor did Pearson. Nor will Chretien. Certainly Mulroney won't. I remember the mourning for levesque in Quebec. It didn't approach that for Layton.

I won't mean to be picky here. I think something profound is being reflected. Much of the world has lost faith in its political leadership - and that is very true of democracies in general. Thus the declining turnoutsThe mourning for Layton is not because everyone saw him as right, or even accomplished. But most saw him as honest and trustworthy. The mourning may well be a mourning for the last survival of hope and trust and honesty. If so, we can look forward to some very serious consequences.

New Brunswick is the most passive province I have seen. But there are two major protests going on now. I'm not sure that's ever happened before.

The protest isn't showing up in political polls. Often, protests don't. They show up in action.

When Europe went through this, the response was to mythologize new leaders as honest and caring. Thus the rise of Hitler and Mussolini.

In New Brunswick, the recent liberal government was despised for lying and forcing unwanted policies. So people voted Conservative. A recent poll shows the Conservatives becoming unpopular for exactly the same reason as the Liberals did. So New Brunswickers are switching their choice to the Liberals. (It can take New Brunswickers some time to work out the absurdity of that.)

The fact is that we are far, far closer to fascism than we realize. Some would say we have already arrived.

That may explain the mourning.

Thaht

My thoughts are

1. That politicians are people too.
2. Death either makes folks see someone as mortal or elevates them to immortal
3. The dead cannot hear or testify, be seduced or libeled, speak for themselves...
 

My thoughts on Jack... He was someone's husband, someone's dad, someone's grandpa and many people's friend. He embodied many folks politics, ideology, personal fight....

He was a civil servant. However he did that, he threw his hat into a ring few do. I can complain how much better it can be done, but until I put my name on a ballot I am just spewing junk.

I watched the interview of Olivia Chow by Mansbridge.   It helped for me to wrap up some of the loose ends and challenges that others have placed to the funeral and his illness.  I was thankful to her for her grace and willingness to be open & respond. 

I watched that interview, too. It was impressive and moving.

Is that interview online anywhere? I'd like to watch it.

Here is the link -- it is a video on this page: http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/story/2011/09/04/pol-layton-mansbridge-national-intvu.html

i can't recall any politician who has had such an outpouring of emotion over their death either... and from across the public spectrum, either.

if harper were to pass away tomorrow, i know personally that i would pay my respects, for as sg has stated he has thrown his hat into the political ring, and i'd never be able to do that.  but i can't honestly say that i would be as upset.  and honestly, the guy is not really all that irreplaceable... i don't think that you would see people in general getting as emotional, either.

as for mulroney, i think the only reason i might go to pay my respects would be to make sure he is actually in the casket.  he has said and done so many things that i find reprehensible, both as a politician and in his private life, that i simply feel nothing but contempt for the man.

 thank you sighsnootles for my morning laugh.

And look, I was a big, brassy guy who won and won big. I did what I wanted.
     Brian Mulroney

 I remember being at a party of the wealthier conservatives in Montreal (Westmount) shorty after Kim Campbell's defeat - when Mulroney and Mila came through the door.  Everybody was working desperately hard not to notice them.. Mila is his perfect mate - at least equally self-seeking and self-absorbed. (Though perhaps more scatter-brained.)

Later, they were having supper at an exclusive tennis club in Montreal. An elderly member of their party excused himself to go to the washroom. Befuddled, he urinated an the sports bag of a young man is a part of othe Montreal elite, and a member of the club.

The young man beat the elderly man to death. When the police came, everybody at the club - including Brian and Mila - refused to testify.

The police realized what had happened. But without some testimony, they had no case. Besides the young man had high connections ini the provincial government.
 

LOLOLOL...aah, sighsnoodles...LOL...all those trips around the sun must've made you this funny. ;)

well, the booze helps too.