SG, you are still effectively promoting a culture of fear.  Be afraid of your neighbour.  Be afraid of your community.  Be afraid, for anyone might try to harm you.

The facts don't bear that out, and having a gun doesn't really help does it?  Especially since it's another gun that can be used, at some point, to hurt others.  Give every Canadian an extra gun and we have another couple dozen million guns around.  Everyone's safer, eh?

The NRA position so far is that teachers should be armed to be able to return fire.

I h ave used guns a great deal. I know that once a gun is put in a person's hand, there is no adequate control.

But I am mystified in all this being put in a domestic context. For at least ten years, the US military has killed more chidren every day than were killed in that school. That focus suggests and unconcious racism on our part. It also suggests that while having a gun makes it much easier to kill, the guns themselves may not be the who cause..

(Mind you, the gun can be a part of the cause. I've seen many a change of personality within seconds of picking up a gun. Some were quite scary.)

I should add that one of my gun experiences was being a range officer for a police force. Talk about personality changes! Most of them instantly became1920s movie cowboys.

Here's another update on the Nancy/Adam  story.

Sorry...it sounds gossipy and the comments are ugly.

I've no idea about the truth of it. There's also a story that Nancy's husband sent her $325,000. a month.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/nancy-lanza-feared-son-adam-worse-article-1.1221505

i can go a long way in sympathy with SG's views as expressed in his latest post

We will in a society in which powerful forces deliberately keep us in a sate of fear that, as in the US, can be hysteria. The link with guns is a and intdustrial propaganda organization like the National Rifle Association. But it is not the only source, not by a long (pardon me) shot.

We live in one hell of a predatory and exploitive society. I think some considerable control over guns is necessary - but we also face the far bigger job of reforms in society.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/16/i-am-adam-lanzas-mother-mental-illness-conversation_n_2311009.html

I  read SG's link before it was posted. To be honest it scared me half to death. I also came across a link by  Sally Ann and mental illness related to poverty and more.

Today, approximately three million Canadians live in poverty with many of them suffering from either

mental illness or addiction. The Salvation Army serves 1.7 million people across the country every year

with basic needs thanks to generous donors.

http://www.salvationarmy.ca/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/CanadaSpeaks2012_report_web.pdf

Hi SG,

You'd think, that in Canada, with a universal health plan that things would be much different.

And you'd be wrong.  Quite a bit of the time.

I've driven 425kms through a Newfoundland blizzard wondering who I was going to have to deck to have my son admitted to the only children's psychiatric ward in the Province.

I've wrestled with my son who was trying to kill me in the slush during another Newfoundland blizzard while RCMP officers waited for me to restrain him.

I've held my son for 45 minutes of a full blown rage waiting for the ambulance to arrive while I was bitten and clawed.  Normally the ambulance took 20 minutes but for some inexplicable reason an on call doctor at the hospital changed the response protocol and called the ambulance back.

I've known psychiatrists to put their pager in thier office desk and leave the hospital when our son was enroute so that they could not be called for a consult.

I remember the hospital beeming so proudly about their new quiet room and how effective it was in calming our son down when he was brought in only to find that the stunned asses who converted the room left an exterior door, openable from the inside intact.  Not to mention the flaming stupidity of not having a door with an observation window on a quiet room.

So, naturally when he simply opened the other door and fled into the night I was singularly unimpressed.

In the seven years since we have returned to Ontario we have had few incidents and never one that I needed to physically intervene with.  There was one time when our son made a threatening move at his mother and the police who were already present slapped the cuffs on him so fast that his head spun.  By the time I got home he had passed from anger (thankfully not a manic anger) to remorseful.

There was also the time he ran away, 16th birthday and he knew he could go and we couldn't stop him this time, so he went, spent the night in a park, visited his grandmother for breakfast and then started walking.  He had no idea where he was going or who he could get help from afterwards.  We caught up with him, had the police chat with him and eventually brought him back hom.

There was another night where he decided he was going to admit himself to a group home and the staff went out of their way to convince him that he didn't want to be there. He called his grandmother to talk to her out of loneliness but he wouldn't call home because he made a decision, signed a paper, and had to live up to his agreements.  I talked to him.  Told him any paper that he signed admitting himself to a group home had another piece of paper that he could sign discharging himself from the group home.  He chose to live with the consequences of his decision for another day and then asked if he could come back home.

Today he is working full time at a meat processing plant and getting along with everyone there.

He monitors his medications and keeps his appointments scrupulously.

He cannot remember those dark years in Newfoundland and has no memory of trying to kill me or any other member of the family.

Either he is an accomplished liar (and he isn't).  Or he really doesn't remember.  If he doesn't then thank God for that.  It is enough weight on the family that the rest of us can.  We've moved past it though.

There is always the nagging fear though, what happens if his medication starts to fail? How long would it take us to notice?

And all around us are families living their own nightmares.

And some of them are getting nothing in the way of help which is offering anything remotely hopeful.

Saturday at the farmers market, one of the patrons approached me.  I'm known as clergy and I have been clergy for vendors at the market in times of trouble.  So, because I'm clergy I am safe to say things that the rest of your family doesn't want to listen to.

She is upset by the shooting in Connecticut and wonders, coarsely why if the shooter was going to put a gun to his own head why he didn't just start there?

Who would have mourned the suicide of a 20 year old with a mental health problem?  Would that have filled a whole weekend's worth of news?

Millions of Americans will make plans to end their own life in the next year.  Only if they pulled it all off at the same time would it even register on the 24 news networks.

Of those millions tens of thousands will succeed in taking their own life.

I'm sure the old ways of ignoring the problem will prove just as effectual as they did this year.

Unless they all think they need to take several with them for something to change.

Grace and peace to you.

John

Thank you, John, for your witness as a pastor.... moreso as a father.

Maybe those of us who have walked the walk have more empathy for those who have blisters or scars from the journey, as well as those who have fallen along the way or taken others with them when they fell.... 

I recall my youth. For most my teen years, my stepdad had stepped off. He could not deal with it anymore and so he left. (They got back together once she was medicated regularly)

I had called child services when my stepdad left. Since I was 16, they would not remove my siblings if I would take care of them. If I wouldn't, they would each go into foster care. I did what I thought was best. I live every day wondering if it was.

I did what one does on days when it got too bad. Now, what as "not too bad" would curl your toes. Remember, we grew up with mentally ill being mom's "normal". Yet, some days when it was "too bad"  I had to call 911.

They would often arrive and my mom would not know who the president was, what day it was... she would be babbling.... However, some days they would explain that she was not willing to go with them. I was unable to commit her, as I was underage. They also could not take her against her will as she was not dangerous to herself or anyone else.

I asked, as a smart assed teen, how they knew she wasn't. They were, after all not psychiatrists. I asked what I had to do, wait until she had slit her wrists or taken pills... or until she killed my little brother and sister.

What an assinine question to pose...

The answer was basically yes.

Then again, I had little faith in doctors helping her either. Mom would go see doctors and they would give her a pill that made things worse IMO (She would go into a doctor's office depressed and she would be given something that shot her into mania complete with paranoia and delusions. Patients on top of the world, not needing sleep or food, feeling brilliant and sexy.... or not in need of help, do not tend to go into a doctor's office saying "fix this")

Any number of times an ambulance team did decide she was dangerous to herself or others and she would go in for a 72 hour hold. She would be taken in as an ER patient and then be taken to the psych wing. After all these years I still know what floor and wing, 2A. There was a standing order for meds. Then a physchiatrist would see her. She would be seen once medication was in her system and they would let her go. The danger had passed.

Right after I turned 18, I committed her. I also told them I was speaking to a Pittsburgh newspaper reporter doing a series on mental illness.  That time, she was not medicated until she was adequately assessed.That time, they decided it would not be in her or the hospitals best interest if she was medicated for a 72 hour release.

My mom stayed in the hospital for a month. She came out and has taken her medication every day since.

She is lucky to be alive. There were nights of "sampling" kitchen cleaners to figure out what "they" were poisoning her with. She ran off where anyone could have run her over or killed her. She has said suicidal thoughts were a constant in the depressive times.

We are lucky to be alive. It went beyond what we knew and we knew we were in danger, we bore the marks and scars... we heard the threats. We slept with "protection" and with booby traps "in case mom comes in your room".

Hearing your mom say, in therapy, how often she thought of killing you and had started the planning, will give you chills words cannot describe.

We will decide that it is worth our care, our concern, our tax dollars, that these people are still people.... maybe when we look in their eyes and know their name, know they gave us birth, know we gave them life.... when we wrestle loving them and fearing them.....

Until then, we will ask how this happens. Until then, we will say, "I hope if there is a hell, they are in it" (something I heard on Sunday)

Hi SG,

Talking about it is the only way to even attempt to redeem the pain that we have all endured.

Maybe.  I'd like to think that taking the walk isn't necessary for empathy and that all who take would develop empathy.  Experience has yet to prove that thinking as being anything other than wishful.

In our house gun control wasn't even the first consideration once the shock ot the reality passed.  We immediately went to what will the diagnosis be.  Why?  Well, because we live with a son who has a diagnosis

As far as mental illness goes it is by no means the worse, it needs to be treated or it gives the worse a good run for the money.  When people find out about his diagnosis you can see the fear wash over them.  They wonder if they are safe because 6'3 he's intimidating even if you don't think he is nuts.  They are reluctant to let him play with their small kids, at present his ASD would be more problematic.

What is worse is that we don't make it part of the introductions as in, "this is our son the psycho" and when people find out about the diagnosis later they are often offended that we hid this crucial bit of information from them.  

The need to have to ask the question is assinine.  The question itself is quite a rational one.  Answers to the question run the gamut from absurd to demented.  We've been around that block several times.

And that is a 20th Century answer.

All the years lost and the pains endured that might have never been had this been an option earlier.

That all families will never experience anything remotely resembling what you and I have lived through is something I give thanks for.  I wouldn't wish these kind of experiences on anyone and for those who are at the centre of this maelstrom I cannot comprehend what their lives must actually be like.

That said, I wish those on the outside of all of this had even an ounce of understanding.  All the hours I spent restraining my son when he was in a violent rage and most won't even reflect for 15 minutes in an entire lifetime of what exactly it all means for those in the middle.

They offer tut when a policeman's bullet is a cheaper and more certain therapy than the typical drug trials.

They have all the time in the world to commiserate with you after the plan is successfully completed.

Burn in hell indeed.  It probably is more welcoming than any attempted to make life for those who suffer and those who love those who suffer.

Grace and peace to you.

John 

I am not sure, John, how you have one of my posts labelled airclean33.

Other than that it is bang on and worthy of many a read.... I will return to it later...

Hi SG,

My apologies, I have corrected it.

No problem figuring out who I have been spending a lot of time with eh?  :)

I'm glad that it is providing you with much to chew on.

Grace and peace to you.

John

Rev. John and SG

Thank you so much for sharing. I thought perhaps we should move the posts to a thread on mental illness but it may be better read here.  There are usually a lot more lurkers than those who respond in any case.

I'm so glad that family  conditions are currently better for both of you and that you both emerged into the sunlight after the agonizing days  of hell and  darkness.

After ulcer surgery last year in ICU I had a  devastating hallucination, a long story. Briefly  I was shot at and killed ( unlike in a dream),  teased with a gun to my head ,  acid on a string of  beads was rubbed into my eyes, a bag was being set on fire beside me,  I was kidnapped. Finally in the a.m.  when a nurse came to take my blood I attacked her and  I had to be restrained,  my hands were  tied. My daughter came and stayed the night in ICU with me  because I was so fearful of being killed.

It was brought on I'm assuming by drugs since I have no history of mental illness. It was very very real, not at all like a dream and I did get mixed up later trying to recall reality from this experience. It wasn't discussed by the nurses or staff so I never managed to find out the name of the drug/drugs I had been given. I'm thinking it may have been morphine. Since then I believe I have had a glimpse into what it must be like to be mentally ill. I might say I was "right there, right in the experience, living it ". There was no sense of it being  a dream. This also must be what is meant by "having a bad trip" on drugs.

I'm really surprised  to read in the Toronto Star  that shock treatments are in vogue again since some years. I had no idea. I thought this treatment had been discontinued years ago.

See next post

Stephen Pinker's fine book "The Better Angels of our Natures", which looks at trends of violence over history and finds that it has been going down and has an interesting bit on violence in the USA that pertains to the recent gun incident

I'm just going to leave this here:

Guns for Christmas.....?......its not a very pleasant thought but today's Star front page says "Schools Need Guns " NRA leader insists. I'll post the article. Meanwhile here's an idea of what some of the big ole boys are paid in the NRA. Its too good to let go.

Very discouraging news as we head into the New Year 2013.

Toronto Star Dec.22,2012

Dec.18- Democracy Now

Michael Moore speaks out  about the Newtown shootings and gun violence.

61 mass shootings since Columbine.

Americans kill people.

http://www.democracynow.org/2012/12/18/americans_kill_people_michael_moo...

 People are calling their bluff. That's encouraging, at least. Also, with regard to mentioning video games and violent films encouraging a culture of violence, I agree--which is what they're hoping people there will do. They're hoping people will agree without analyzing any further. However, many also see that  throwing that in as their argument is a red herring to divert attention from their responsibility in the matter of gun violence.

We shouldn't refer to the NRA as if it were some independent organization. It is a creature of weapons manufacturers in the US. It's Colt, Remington, and Smith and Wesson et al. The reasons for it are much the same as the for bombing of Libya - to make profits for the sponsors. And the sponsors have run a nifty propaganda campaign to suck in tens of thousands of volunteers to help them in their potection of profits.

I don't expect any serious gun legislation. Quite the contrary, I expect Harper to edge onto the bandwagon.

Graeme, you make a good point about the NRA, but I'm not as cynical as you about the outcome. I think something positive will happen. I think the NRA's attempt to double-down with the arming schools idea is backfiring, and I think there is enough momentum between the democrat election wins and the outpouring of public sentiment, that some form of extra gun control will happen. If it doesn't happen in the wake of 20 dead kids, then I'll join your cynical bandwagon.

Recent shootings or intentions ...the bullets keep flying.....and these are only the ones we know about.

I'll agree with graeme on the gun issues. School kids will wear bullet proof back packs and vests  perhaps. There will be a school guard who will prove to be ineffective.

This is about  U.S. arms used in war but read how hellish  it is and almost mentally deranged regarding the food packets  dropped being the same colour as the bombs?

I don't swear very often but WTF......?....isn't this over the top? I can't help but wonder who is crazy....?....and look at the numbers dropped in Iraq in early 2003?  This is why graeme is asking why the U.S. makes such a fuss over a few of its own school children killed. Do we have numbers of how many children  were killed in Iraq or Afghan? Of course we can't see it......  its not in our own back yard ..... its not us....its them......!!!!

Quote:

What the American people want doesn't really matter. The American politcal system is wildely corrupt. All congressmen depend on donations for their election campaigns - and the bulk of those donations don't come from maw and paw. They come from big business - like the arms business, and, in the NRA the arms business has a huge number of volunteers and donors - as well as the money that comes in from the arms companies.

As recent study shows that films have a trememdous effect on violence, expecially among young people. They also score tops at the box office. So the film industry in spending big buck on buying congressmen to re-word the rating system so it can attrract even younger viewers to it violent films.

When the American banks crashed and begged for a bailout, the crash was due to criminal behaviour. But the got the bailout; and not a single charge was laid. When I huge British bank was caught, just weeks ago, using its American branches to lunder drug and terrorist money (and knowingly doing so) in the hundreds of billions, it paid a relatively minor fine. No criminal charges were laid - though the action for both drugs and terrorists was clearly illegal.

You can caught with some drugs on you, even small amounts, you spend time in Jail. They even suspect you're a potential terrorist, and you can be jailed without trial and tortured for years. But play big time with drug cartel, terrorists and international prostitution rings, and  you get a slap on the wrist.

The banks pay congress for that protection. I don't think we can begin to understand the extent of corruption that runs through the American political system and much of the society as a whole.

graeme

I gotcha....its too late.....the horse got out of the barn  years ago. I do believe.

A spokesperson  on Piers Morgan  CNN last night said there are millions of those powerful  assault rifles or whatever, the ones that kill 100 people in one minute in the hands of the people, U.S.A.

  Piers argued with him and said ......" You mean thousands.....?" and the man said...."No, I mean millions" ......owned by ordinary citizens. He said there is no such thing as a gun that holds only one or two bullets like some people are suggesting. The gun magazines - sp- aren't built like that.

Today's News on the net....its the icing on the cake.....unbelievable!

Deport Piers Morgan because he's for gun control......did you ever....!!!!!! I thought it was a joke at first?

Here are some videos of Piers Morgan's interviews about guns ( not the most recent) if they are still available on CNN. See the playlist. This is before the petition to deport him.

Here's more fire from Piers Morgan that has gotten him into deep water:

SAF Alan Gottleib

 

 

 

Piers explodes at gun advocates

 

Oops! Having trouble resizing this....

The caption reads " Suggest putting a teacher in every gun store."

That is good.

"Celebrating the Prince of Peace in the Land of Guns"  by Michael Moore

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/michael-moore/gun-violence-united-states_b...

I wonder why a good citizen with a gun didn't intervene and save two volunteer  firmen being shot dead and another couple being wounded as they attended a fire in Webster, New York State, on Christmas Eve…  not enough "good guys" with assault rifles in the neighborhood, I guess.

It makes me sick: the NRA topping the global list of fantasist morons.

Mike.....!!!

Isn't it something hellish, a world gone mad. It seems the gun man set the fire on purpose with the intention to kill the firemen when they arrived.

Its beyond.....sick....!

Australia destroyed 700,000 guns in 1996 so something really can be done even if its a lot of work and would take months.

National Post:

part of my BS to explore other BS

More gun-related stuff

Interview between Piers Morgan & a former Marine.  Nice interview on both sides

What I got from this video is mainly: it's all aboot trust, citizens trusting other citizens and the state trusting citizens.

The obvious solution to the problem...is more guns, right?

heck, you should check out the statistics for Anguilla -- 7.14 firearm homicides per 100,000 peeps; eek!

or Venezuela -- 38.97! ick!

adjust the search parameters around and, well, lies, damn lies and statistics :3

(here's the guardian article with links to the stats i listed above)

(here's that really cool death risk chart -- so many things we should stop, like personal vehicles)

"we are as g_ds and we must get good at it"

--stewart brand

developing news (a bit of of future shock for me)

Defense Distributed

"the US group that developed open-source 3D-printed gun parts has launched a file-sharing website for blueprints to 3D-printed illicit items including weapons, drugs and medical equipment.

Defcad.com, launched at the SXSW technology conference in Austin, Texas, will be "the world's first unblockable, open-source search engine for all 3D-printable parts," according to founder and Texas law student Cody Wilson."
 

the latest:

"With the approval from the U.S. Government, Defense Distributed head Cory Wilson can sell and transport the pieces they've been making, but is required to keep records of all production and transactions. The nonprofit has created prototypes over the past few months, including the most recent: a 3D-printed semi-automatic that fires more than 600 rounds."

3-d printers are quite affordable now

the Global Human Spring continues

Funny guy… not so funny issue…

quite a clumsy sketch -- i love it :3

you can`t improve on perfection: bill hicks

Here are a few more

let there be light

(oh wait, that's aboot another form of gun, religious folk...)

talk aboot control

(and limited magazine size)

so i've been tooling around

putting myself in living in washington state

shopping for guns

am looking for something a leetle different

a leetle less macho

a leetle more pretty

and there are so many to choose from

the Pink Gun website, where you can dress up a variety of pistols in what looks like bitmaps...i like the blue paisley pattern

or this one is pretty sweet

and yes, coloured bullets

ooooo, art!

this one is so me

what to bring to tea

so many to choose from

now, i'd learn how to use them, clean them...i wouldn't carry bullets in em...hopefully get  a conceal & carry permit...

and i'd probably name it my Spoon or some such...because to guns rights peeps, guns're tools...and a spoon is a tool, so...

plus it could be a conversation starter...especially in open-carry situations...

and so it goes