Both science and religious beliefs that are based on Greek philosophy are flawed by an understanding that there is something called an ideal. In otherwards that there is something called normal. In addition that which is normal, or ideal is determined by a guess. In the case of scinece usually it is detrmine by what is most common.

Process thought, or process theology based on Whitehead's process thought, (along with other belief systems) hold a belief that we are all part of a system and that we are all connected. To me as a disability advocate, this means that people with different abilities, might not be sick, or bad, but that their role to play in creation and society is just different than others.

In religious terms one might say God does not create junk, or bad people.

In an atheist evolutionary term, one might say that any illness/disability/difference, that is common in the world, and has a gentic link, belongs in the world, because otherwise the gene woul;d have died out through evolution,  Thus I can concluded that people with ADHD and autism exist for a reason that has help humanity survive and move forward.

Just as some bel;eive evolution created homosexuals, because somehow hopmosexuals allow their brother and sisters to have more children, thus allowing their genes to continue. Some would say that in spite of the negative aspects of ADHD (and part of the prolblem is that we only see the negative parts, not the good parts) , their abilities allow them or their brothers and sister to have more children,, thus ensuring the continuation of theri genes.\

Perhaps we lost sight of the fact the those who are unable to have chil;dren, or have sex with member of the opposite, shows that more than two parents are necessary to raise children, expecially challenging children.  While it is these challenging children who grow up and are able to think outside the box, and provide solutions to challenges  facing all of humanity, that others can not see. 

Howver neither sceince nor religion based on Platonic or Aristestlian phiosophy will tell us that, because it is based on the ideal, or the belief that we are all suppose to be the same. That all families are suppose to be the same, and anyone who deviates from the norm as determine by some criteria is either sick (Science) or bad (religion). 

well, medicine doesn't assume that all people are the same. 

far from it.

what christianity assumes isn't at issue here.

wrong.

perhaps all the long term studies YOU pulled out, but certainly not any of the long term studies that i have read.

and presented to you here.

you may want to read them.

no, it means that you simply refuse to take the time to read any study that doesn't support your view of medications used to help children with ADHD, and that you want to be right at all costs.

not at all.

you need to have some justification to continue to insist you are right, however, which explains your continued insistence that there are no long term studies on this, even when i have shown a few to you.

no.

but you more or less must accept that ADHD is not autism, and that this is an issue you know nothing about.  well, except for a few articles you read in a newspaper, and some huge chip on your shoulder about something that has pretty much nothing to do with ADHD.

actually, you get larger amounts of caffeine in 'coke', and based on what my kids do when they have one at christmas, it doesn't work.

well, i have a degree in nursing.

if by all this you are attempting to prove that medicine assumes that there is an 'ideal human', and that our job is to make everyone fit into that very narrow category, then you are wrong.

i have 4 years of medical school, 5 years of work as a registered nurse.

what do you have to support your position??

if you approach the medical system with your assumption that they believe that everyone who does not fit some random 'ideal human' cut out is considered to be bad by them, i'm amazed that you have had any success advocating for the disabled.

it says great things about the medical system you have worked with that they have taken any time to deal with you after you come at them accusing them of all kinds of crazy nonsense like that.

religion is not at issue here.

again, do you understand that ADHD is not autism, alex??

they are two different things.

my son has aspergers, but he also has ADHD.  he uses adderall to help him with his ADHD, but it still leaves him the wonderful, quirky, bizarre kid that i know and love.

when he is medicated, alex, he still has that fabulous aspergers behaviour.  which is why he is such an AWESOME goalie on his hockey team, and why he is so amazing with electronics... he just rewired his distortion pedal for his electric guitar.

DO YOU GET THAT?!?!?  do you understand that this medication doesn't make them into something that they aren't?

alex, have you considered that you are identifying with some creation of a drugged up kid in your mind?? 

and that this creation in your mind is NOT REALITY??

you have to understand that, alex... you have fabricated some child in your head that has no basis in reality, and have taken that imaginary childs imaginary problems on as your own.

do you understand that there is NO WAY you can see any of this objectively when you do something like that??

where did you find THAT study??

whew, i'm not sure about these studies you are bringing up here at all anymore...

alex, this has NOTHING TO DO WITH ADHD.

you are attempting to parrallel the experiences of my kids with your own experiences as a child growing up gay and autistic.

they are COMPLETELY DIFFERENT.

for you to suggest that there are any similarities between ADHD and autism, or ADHD and homosexuality shows that you don't understand what you are talking about.

again, as a person with 4 years of medical training and 5 years of medical employment, i can tell you that this is completely WRONG.

and again, that you believe in this nonsense and are still advocating for the disabled shows that the medical system has infinite patience for all your lies and misconceptions.

You should be able to reference a long term study that shows it helps to drug kids in the long term.

So what I am saying is that empire is replacing violence and killing as a methiod of control with drugs. It is easier to get kids to take drugs everyday, if we make parents feel they are bad, and need to make there kids normal, in order to be good parents.

For those children taking drugs, all I ask if you were given any other options. Were you offered more help. reduced hours at work, without reduced pay. Housing next to a park with trees and grass, or a woods, or ravine etc.  Did they tell you that reduce class sizes, in school and other places were avaialble?

Or how about along with other kids with challenges, were you offered more money to help? instead of drugs?   

I am only illustrating that behind science and and religion there is a philosophy.

The link between homosexuality, autism, and ADHD is made to illustrate how the social model of disability works and can be  linked to process thought.

Homosexualityy was once thought to be a disability. Howevr it only caused problems because of society's treatment of LGBT people. Likewise most of the barriers or problems people with high functioning forms of autism, and ADHD, (which the studies I have referenced show us that they are being targeted for drug therapy) are more caused by societies attitutudes towards them.

i have.

i've given you two books which reference many studies.  before i chose to treat my kids' ADHD with adderall, i READ A LOT OF BOOKS. 

do you understand that these books are based on many studies, compiled and referenced by the authors??

unlike you, who just saw a couple of studies in a newspaper, i made sure i did my homework before choosing the medication.

-------------------------------

a direct quote from some anti-pharmaceutical website, i'm sure.

look, alex, i can use a search engine too.  lets try and keep the straw men out of this, shall we?? 

so, its a big ol' conspiracy theory, then??

wow.

are you kidding??  i was offered everything but a partridge in a pear tree.  i am a stay at home parent, so getting extra time from work wasn't an issue.  we live in areas with parks all over the place... my kids probably got and continue to get at least 3 hours of hard activity a day.  once the diagnosis of ADHD was made, (after a series of 1 hour sessions with a trained therapist who is NOT qualified to prescribe drugs.  shoots your conspiracy theory right out of the sky, that one...)  the schools were given teachers assistants to help with our kids. 

espeically with my son, the therapist who did the assesment came to the school with me to discuss his limitations and strengths, and we all sat in a meeting - the therapist, myself, my sons teacher, the teachers assistant, and the principal - and we put together a strategy to help him.

after a month, my son was still struggling.  so we tried the medication, and IT WORKED.  it worked beautifully, alex... even he comments on the day that he started it... he said it felt like his head finally stopped whirling.  

we still access all the supports for him as well as giving him the medication.  he had a lot of ground to cover considering how far behind we were, but he has since caught up and surpassed the rest of his peers. 

he always could do it, alex, he just needed the right supports.  and as difficult as it is for you to believe, alex, the medication WAS and IS the right support for him.

lol!!

where does all this money supposedly come from??  i haven't seen a dime of it!!

trust me, alex, medication is the only expense i have had to incur in all this.  if this was in any way about the money, he wouldn't be on the medication.

so do you get that this philosophy is not at play in this situation??

religion for sure has no play in this, and your idea of what philosophy the medical system is running under is just not valid from my experiences as a nursing student, as a working registered nurse, as a foster parent with school aged children, and as a parent with 3 kids with ADHD.

how do you reconcile ALL THAT EXPERIENCE which does not support your claim with your continued insistence that your theories have any credibility in this discussion??

while the truth of this statement is definetly questionable, alex, i think that you need to consider that you have brought WAAAAYYYY too much personal baggage into this situation to be of any support as an advocate.

you have now aligned yourself with a child with ADHD, and you feel that your experiences growing up as a gay person with autism somehow make you able to understand their experience, and scarier yet feel confident to 'advocate' for them AGAINST their parents, no matter how many times your statements are proven to be inaccurate.

as a parent with three ADHD kids, alex, i can assure you that your experience is IN NO WAY similar to what my kids have had.

not even close.

my oldest is 17, and if you would like, i can get her to come here and tell you what her experience with all this was.  i can assure you that it will more that disprove all your claims to understand what life is like for a child with ADHD, both untreated and treated with medication.

Like I said before this is an issue of control. 

All of the points you raise, and the logic that you use is the same  to the those who defend hittiing children to control them  Every single one.   The only argument that you did not use that those who support corporal punishment is that drugging is traditional.

YOu still have not come up with any single reference to a long term study that shows it helps kids in the long term. Not one. So all you are depending on is the same logic as those who hit children who are difficult and challenging.

?????????????  Really, if where did you read this.  

In adition what made you think I am getting my references from anti pharmaceutacal web site..  What makes you think I am against them. I am just point outy that so0metimes the oprfit motivation, and other factors, give many things (incllllllduing drugs) a life of their own.

Al ot of drugs do work, and do help people.  I am just pointing out that `the "emperor has no cloths", that all of the long term studies show drugging these kids do not work

Show me one long term study that does show that they work. Stop using the same logic and types of evidence that those who support hitting kids, and you have no evidence.

so, now you are comparing me to parents who physically abuse their children.

wow. 

are you for real??  after saying something like that, do you think i would be upset??  i just wanna make sure you actually REMEMBER this one for the next time you bleat about how you 'haven't accused me of ANYTHING!!1!'....

look, alex, i have given you links to two books. 

if you choose not to read them, there isn't much i can do about that.

i'm living it.

i am in a drug study for MS right now, which has been ongoing for 10 years.  a less purified form of this drug is currently used to treat patients with rheumatoid arthrits, so once this purified form is released onto the market, the cost will be the same as the post-patented RA drug. 

you should also note that the pharmaceutical company will undoubtedly barely break even on this drug, if they even get that far... the amount of money that they have spent so far on this drug study is extensive.  so your rant about how they are only in this for a profit, the health of the patients be damned!!!  is shot down right there. 

i have also seen this time and time again with the drugs used to treat depression.  a drug is released, and years later a more purified form is released, and it still falls under the origional patent. 

your posts read pretty much exactly like statements i've seen on various anti-immunization sites.  all you have to do is mention monsanto and you'll fit right it.

 What makes you think I am against them. I am just point outy that so0metimes the oprfit motivation, and other factors, give many things (incllllllduing drugs) a life of their own.

yep.  but only if you actually take them. 

'all' these studies??  really??

come on, alex... EVERYBODY knows that you never say 'all studies' when it comes to stuff like this!!

i have shown you two books that reference quite a few studies that show the opposite, so RIGHT THERE your statement is proven false. 

you can find a study that proves pretty much anything you want to bandy about as the truth... read 'freakenomics' if you have any questions about that one.

alex, this is getting tiresome. 

i have given you links to 2 books that i read when i was researching these drugs, and they are based on all kinds of studies.

now, as to your comparison to a child abuser... do you WANT to go there??  becasue as a foster parent, i will take you down on that one, too....

Agin you are projecting your own feelings of inadequacy on to a political discussion with implications that connect to the way you and many others decided to face challeneges.

Earlier you claimed that you had studies that proved your points.   Drug treatments of any kind are based on the medical model, and are suppose to be supported by empiricism.  So show me a long term study.    Parents who support hitting children can also reference books that support it. They can not reference long term studies.

LOL!!

don't flatter yourself, alex.  you aren't making me feel inadequate.

you are making me feel fabulous... its not every day i can trounce someone in a discussion like this!!

now, if you are not saying that the way i have dealt with this challenge is to poison my children with drugs, what ARE you saying, then??

why aren't you reading these books that i have suggested for you, alex??

what are you afraid of ??  or do you find it to much work to actually have to READ a detailed description of these studies??

just for a lark, i decided to google this, and found...

"Adults with ADHD can benefit from treatment with ADDERALL XR over the long-term because it can improve their ability to maintain focus, concentrate, and pay attention for longer periods of time, which may enable them to achieve more in professional, academic and social settings," said lead investigator Joseph Biederman, M.D., professor of psychiatry at Harvard Medical School.

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/releases/8019.php

here is another interesting study...

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504763_162-20063572-10391704.html

you will note in this one that many kids who are treated with adderall actually need it less and less as they get older...

"If your child has been diagnosed with ADHD and needs these drugs, they should be used for the shortest possible time and the smallest effective dose," he said. "Many children with ADHD get better as they get older," and so may not need to use the drugs on a long-term basis.

this was definetly the case with my oldest daughter... she got AMAZING relief from her ADHD when she was on it, but once she was in about grade 7-8ish, she started noticing that she didnt' need it as much, and so on her next visit to the prescribing pediatrician, he told her to stop taking it and see how she felt.

she did, she felt fine, and voila.

sure doesn't sound like the evil doctors that you are describing, alex...

all this being said... it REALLY isn't hard to find studies that support long term use of adderall for treatment of ADHD... i found this one at the top here that went into adulthood back in 2004 within 20 seconds on 'google'...

why you are insisting that these studies 'just don't exist' is beyond me.

why are you so reluctant to just LOOK?!?!?

... and here is another study that shows how effective adderall is at helping kids with ADHD....

http://www.jaacap.com/article/S0890-8567%2809%2966222-5/abstract

again, found this one in 20 seconds on google. 

shows that adderall DOES work to help children with ADHD.  a lot.

why do you keep insisting that it doesn't help?!?!?!

... another one....

A Randomized, Double-Blind, Placebo-Controlled, Parallel-Group Study of SLI381 (Adderall XR) in Children With Attention-Deficit/Hyperactivity Disorder

Conclusions. SLI381 produced consistent, dose-related improvements on all measures of efficacy. The extended-release nature of the SLI381 formulation was shown by continued, significant improvement in afternoon assessments by teachers and afternoon and late afternoon assessments by parents. The time course and therapeutic effects of SLI381 suggests that this medication is an efficacious once-daily treatment for children with ADHD.

http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/110/2/258.abstract

and another....

Long-term safety results were consistent with findings in the ADDERALL XR short-term adolescent study and previous studies of ADDERALL XR in school-aged children and adults with ADHD. Most adverse events were mild or moderate, and the most common adverse events in adolescents were stomach ache, loss of appetite, insomnia, nervousness and weight loss.

Adolescent patients participating in this study ranged from 13 to 17 years with a mean age of 14.4 years; the mean years since ADHD diagnosis was 5.3 years.

http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2004-10/pn-lsd102004.php

how many more studies do you want to see, alex??  my google page had like 10+ pages of them.

oh, i'm sure that abusive parents can find lots of long term studies that prove their point, alex.  

i'd just like to point out that you are comparing me to a child abuser.

how did you feel about anti-homosexual propaganda that compared gay people to pedophiles?? 

I do not consider 18 months to be a long term study. ANd beside all it says is that kids are no more likely to die on ritilain type drugs. It says nothing about there developement as humans.

I am not comparuing your behaviour to an an abuser. I am comparing your logic and your evidence to being the same as those whop support hitting kids (corperal punishment) as an effective tool in raising children. Even today, many still support htting kids, and they use the tyope of evidence,as you do in supporting long term drug therapy.

first of all.... are you admitting you were wrong in saying that there are no studies which prove that adderall works to help children with ADHD??

secondly, you will notice that in these studies i posted, the children were on the drugs BEFORE the study began... in one of the ones i posted above, children had been on adderall an average of about 5 years BEFORE the study even began.  some had been on longer than that.  you completely misread the friggin' study, alex...

which was why i suggested to you that you actually READ A BOOK which EXPLAINS the studies.  if you had, you would know this stuff.

besides, these are simply examples of studies i found with the briefest of google searches.  which SHOULD be showing you that your claim that there are 'no long term studies to support blah blah blah' is ridiculous.

well, from what i recall, posters here on wondercafe were not comparing gays behaviours to pedophiles, either.  they were saying that the logic of legalizing same sex marriage was the same as those who support legalizing pedophila.

so, by your own logic here, i guess you shouldn't be all that upset when someone compares gay people to pedophiles.  i'm sure that they have SOME study to support their claims.

frankly, i think both of these claims, both the 'abusive parents' and 'gay pedophiles' comparisons are complete and utter bullshit, and that you need to recognize that.  comparing parents who choose a well documented and studied form of treatment with their children are NOT like child abusers just because you don't agree with them, and choose to ignore all the studies that don't back up your narrow minded views.

How do you explain that children are being moved off ritilian type drugs (speed) on to antipsychotics?

I mean it has been over 20 years that these drugs have been widely prescribed,. Time enough for not only there patents to expire, but alos for real use studies to show that they do not help. In addition adults survivior will be starting to file law suits against drug compagnies, for there negative effects,

Antipsychotics have only come into wide spread use for ADHD in the last few years, and it will be another 20 years before long term studies on them, based on real life use, will be done.  Thus if the courts in the US start making multimillion settlements that will force them to remove this class of drugs, the drug compagnies will be able to sell antipsychotics for ADHD and Autism.

 I am not doing this. I am blaming society dependance of the medical theory behind ADHD  and drug therapy created to treat it.

Plus now that long term studies have shown that even under the medical model, they do not work, I am comparing the logic, and the evidence of those that support drug therapy to be more or less the same as those who support corperal punishment as a tool in raising kids.

the same reason you don't see many people with mental illness treated with lithium anymore...

pharmaceutical companies don't stop perfecting their drugs or their drug therapies once they are released.  they keep on trying to make them better.

and when they do, people tend to want the stuff with fewer side effects.

seems pretty logical to me, alex.

wow. 

adults blaming their parents for their crappy life.

THAT has never happened before...  almost as rare as people in america launching a lawsuit... bizarre.

you should alert the media.

well, the world could end in 2012, too.  lets try and stay in the here and now, shall we?

again,  alex, are you ready to admit that your claim that there is no evidence that these drugs help children with ADHD was false??

so, the fact that you were WRONG when you claimed that 'there is no proof that these drugs help children with ADHD' means....

what??  just curious as to how you are going to twist this one...

again, alex... just because you say something lots of times doesn't magically make it more correct, you know.

i have quoted you a few studies after a very brief search here... like i said, there were 10+ more pages of studies on the google page.  you want all those, too??

really, alex, how many more studies do you need to see??  why are you having such a hard time grasping the idea that you are wrong about this stuff??

besides, how DO you feel when people compare gays to pedophiles??   personally, i find it disgusting.

which is why i don't understand why you are trying to do it to me here.

come on, alex... as an advocate for others, does it generally help or hurt your cause to use inflamatory speech like this?

There is no long term evidence. The onkly evidence we see are the same as the ones that support hitting children. Short term studies and anctidotial evidence.

We also see the patteren that when survivors of such treatment grow, and speak against these treatments, than they are accused of wanting to blame there problems on these treatments.   Even when the medical evidence supports that these treatments leads to problems, and the people who make the accusations against survivors, have no idea what these kids have experienced.

It is not logical, to claim that treatments do not have any negative side effects. Even treatments for other illnesses whci are proven to work, have negative side effects.

It's just that there is no proof that eith speed type drugs, or other drugs have long term benefits. HOwevr like most medical  treatments it is well established and not distuped that they have negative consequences due to side effects.

I am not against the idea of using drug therapies, if they are proven to work in the long term , It 's just that these drug treatments have little supporting evidence that they do.

Another thing that the study that NYT opinion piece that I linked to at the beging says (by a supporter of the medical model)  is that research into the  causes of ADHD and Autism are being over looked,.

I know theat there a non conclusive studies which show that bacteria that colonises the body at 3 have a role to play. Some experts support further study into the use of antibiotics developed to target bacterium that they hold responsible.

Also other non conclusive studies point to the immune system as responsible for many of the problems associated with Autism and ADHD. Some believe that the immune system attacks healthy bacterium in our bodies which is needed by the nervous system. 

I tend to believe the second theory, and that while we are not ready to use drugs, we should be investigating and doing clinical studies based on these ideas,

For anyone nterested in Autism I would recoomend watch this episode of the Nature of Things

http://www.cbc.ca/natureofthings/episode/autism-enigma.html

Yes bit only the links to  long term studies please.

This is the type of disscussion I would like to have. Not one based on being called stupid, and that I suck at what I do at life, Or allegations that I do not know what it is like to live with ADHD, when in fact I have PDD NOS, which among other symptoms is alos like having ADD in the extreme.

Or allegations that I am like evryone that you believe think that you are an unfit parent. I can not disscuss what other people or I believ when they or I have not said it and you only believe that they/we do.

Or to be told by you to fuck off , because you believe other people should not be able to talk about an important public policy. Do you believe that only parents with ADHD should be able to hold opinons, and that people like me who have Autism and ADD have no right to discuss or question drug therapies.   

not at all.

all the studies that i put on that page are VERY CLEAR that these drugs help children SIGNIFICANTLY.   some of them are 2-3 year studies, alex, and they CONSISTENTLY show that these kids are making HUGE strides while taking this medication.

again, when are you going to stop comparing me to a child abuser, and simply admit that you were wrong?? 

your statement that 'there is no evidence that says these drugs even work' has been blown away.  i've given you lots of 2-4 year studies that show these drugs have significant benefits.  even if you want to keep harping about only the long term ones, you have to admit you were completely wrong about them not working at all.

i await your apology.

again, alex, adults blaming their woes on their parents is nothing new.

and americans launching lawsuits against the medical establishment is not a new phenomenon, either.

i'm simply stating a fact.

besides, you have no idea what these kids have experienced, either.  that you have mentally aligned yourself with them, and transferred all YOUR experiences as a person growing up gay and autistic does nothing but show you have lost any objectivity you may have had.

i have never claimed that there are no side effects, alex!!  of course there are side effects.  every drug has side effects.

i'm saying that this drug is PROVEN TO WORK. 

all those studies i have posted show, again and again, that they are PROVEN TO WORK. 

in the one study, there was a question of long term effects on the heart... even the cardiologist who questioned the study said that THE MEDICATION IS PROVEN TO WORK.  his concern was ensuring that it wasn't over used.

again, alex, THE MEDICATION IS PROVEN TO WORK.

you can admit you were wrong about that one anytime.

ROTFLMAO!!

okay, alex, now i KNOW you aren't bothering to even READ anything that i have posted here... EVERY SINGLE ONE of the studies i posted discusses the side effects.  they are, say it with me now, INSOMNIA.  LOSS OF APPETITE.  STOMACH UPSET.  INCREASED HEART RATE AND BLOOD PRESSURE.

those are the most common ones. 

the trick with adderall, as well as ANY OTHER MEDICATION, is to ensure that the side effects do not outweigh the good that the drug is doing. 

and again, alex, even those doctors who are concerned about the cardiac issues are very clear that these drugs are proven to work.

again, alex... no shame in admitting you were wrong on that one.

okay, alex...

when you origionally compared me to a child molestor a few pages ago, you stated that there was no evidence that these drugs work.  period.

i have proven that statement to be FALSE.

if you want to continue to discuss long term studies i am quite prepared to do that, however i just want to make sure that you accept that there is A LOT of studies that prove that these drugs do work.

do you accept that your origional statement concerning whether or not these drugs actually work in the first place was incorrect??

so, i have quoted NUMEROUS studies from NUMEROUS sources... from CBS to the american journal of pediatric medicine... and all you got is 2 articles that you read in the new york times a few days ago??

got it.

alex, again...

AUTISM IS NOT ADHD.

why you keep bring up autism in this is bizarre to me... and again, simply proves that you really don't have any kind of grasp on what the issue is here.

do you understand that adderall doesn't treat my sons aspergers??  he is still the wonderfully quirky guy i love, and i would NEVER change that.  its who he is.  

if the adderoll changed THAT, his personality and all those wonderful aspergersy traits, i wouldn't give it to him at all.  i love him just the way he is.

what do you consider to be a 'long term study', alex??

some of the kids studied in that one test had been on adderall for many years before the study even began, and it was a 2 year study....

not to mention that not all children NEED adderall for the rest of their lives... if you read the study parameters on the one where they started with over 500, after a few years half of the kids in the study didn't need adderall any more.

considering the HIGHLY INFLAMMATORY stuff you have thrown at me, alex, i think that what your are blathering away about here is really the pot calling the kettle black.

what WOULD you call someone who refuses to admit their mistake, even after they are presented with quite a bit of evidence showing their fundamental errors??

again, alex, you are the only one around here suggesting that i am an unfit parent.  i am simply saying that you are wrong.  and saying that if you still think that i am an unfit parent, i have numerous people who can give you solid evidence to the contrary, just say the word.

i'm basing all this on evidence, you see... not just opinion and a couple articles in the new york times from last week....

i told you to fuck off when you said that the united church of canada should be intervening to remove my parental responsibilities.

i would say that if you walked up to ANY parent and suggested that they should have their parental rights removed, that 'fuck off' would probably be the least offensive thing you would hear, alex...

do you have kids??  how would you respond to someone who suggested that you should not be allowed to make decisions for them based on 2 articles in the new york times last week??

first of all, alex, autism is not ADD.  these drug therapies are not MEANT to treat autism or aspergers.

secondly, you can question them all you want.  you can have an opinion on anything from world peace to the solubility of a corn flake.

that doesn't mean that i have to accept it.

do YOU believe that someone who holds to an opinion, and refuses to change that opinion even when presented with dozens of studies to the contrary but refuses to read them, should be taken seriously??  

do you believe that someone who has become so entrenched in an idea that the incorrect belief that what they have experienced is somehow the experience of others, with no evidence to support that belief, should be taken seriously??

do you believe that someone who has been called an unfit parent, who has been compared to a child molestor and a child abuser, and has been accused of everything from ignoring my child to the collapse of the earths environment should be a little miffed about that??

OK, obviously you did not read the posts at the begining  of this thread. Obviously you think evrything is about you.  Howevr it is not just kids with ADHD, and it is not just your kids, who are being given drugs with out any supporting studies that prove they work in the long term.

The problem is that we are druging kids with conditions that include ADHD, but also other conditions that include Autism.

If you would read what I post instead of projecting your own guilt you would understand that.  I will quote the opinion peiece from the physcologist  who wrote the piece.

" As a psychologist who has been studying the development of troubled children for more than 40 years, I believe we should be asking why we rely so heavily on these drugs.

Attention-deficit drugs increase concentration in the short term, which is why they work so well for college students cramming for exams. But when given to children over long periods of time, they neither improve school achievement nor reduce behavior problems. The drugs can also have serious side effects, including stunting growth.

Sadly, few physicians and parents seem to be aware of what we have been learning about the lack of effectiveness of these drugs."

  continuing.............

"Back in the 1960s I, like most psychologists, believed that children with difficulty concentrating were suffering from a brain problem of genetic or otherwise inborn origin. Just as Type I diabetics need insulin to correct problems with their inborn biochemistry, these children were believed to require attention-deficit drugs to correct theirs. It turns out, however, that there is little to no evidence to support this theory.

In 1973, I reviewed the literature on drug treatment of children for The New England Journal of Medicine. Dozens of well-controlled studies showed that these drugs immediately improved children’s performance on repetitive tasks requiring concentration and diligence. I had conducted one of these studies myself. Teachers and parents also reported improved behavior in almost every short-term study. This spurred an increase in drug treatment and led many to conclude that the “brain deficit” hypothesis had been confirmed.

But questions continued to be raised, especially concerning the drugs’ mechanism of action and the durability of effects. Ritalin and Adderall, a combination of dextroamphetamine and amphetamine, are stimulants. So why do they appear to calm children down? Some experts argued that because the brains of children with attention problems were different, the drugs had a mysterious paradoxical effect on them.

However, there really was no paradox. Versions of these drugs had been given to World War II radar operators to help them stay awake and focus on boring, repetitive tasks. And when we reviewed the literature on attention-deficit drugs again in 1990 we found that all children, whether they had attention problems or not, responded to stimulant drugs the same way. Moreover, while the drugs helped children settle down in class, they actually increased activity in the playground. Stimulants generally have the same effects for all children and adults. They enhance the ability to concentrate, especially on tasks that are not inherently interesting or when one is fatigued or bored, but they don’t improve broader learning abilities."

And just as in the many dieters who have used and abandoned similar drugs to lose weight, the effects of stimulants on children with attention problems fade after prolonged use. Some experts have argued that children with A.D.D. wouldn’t develop such tolerance because their brains were somehow different. But in fact, the loss of appetite and sleeplessness in children first prescribed attention-deficit drugs do fade, and, as we now know, so do the effects on behavior. They apparently develop a tolerance to the drug, and thus its efficacy disappears. 

"And just as in the many dieters who have used and abandoned similar drugs to lose weight, the effects of stimulants on children with attention problems fade after prolonged use. Some experts have argued that children with A.D.D. wouldn’t develop such tolerance because their brains were somehow different. But in fact, the loss of appetite and sleeplessness in children first prescribed attention-deficit drugs do fade, and, as we now know, so do the effects on behavior. They apparently develop a tolerance to the drug, and thus its efficacy disappears. Many parents who take their children off the drugs find that behavior worsens, which most likely confirms their belief that the drugs work. But the behavior worsens because the children’s bodies have become adapted to the drug. Adults may have similar reactions if they suddenly cut back on coffee, or stop smoking.

TO date, no study has found any long-term benefit of attention-deficit medication on academic performance, peer relationships or behavior problems, the very things we would most want to improve. Until recently, most studies of these drugs had not been properly randomized, and some of them had other methodological flaws.

"But in 2009, findings were published from a well-controlled study that had been going on for more than a decade, and the results were very clear. The study randomly assigned almost 600 children with attention problems to four treatment conditions. Some received medication alone, some cognitive-behavior therapy alone, some medication plus therapy, and some were in a community-care control group that received no systematic treatment. At first this study suggested that medication, or medication plus therapy, produced the best results. However, after three years, these effects had faded, and by eight years there was no evidence that medication produced any academic or behavioral benefits.

"Second, the large-scale medication of children feeds into a societal view that all of life’s problems can be solved with a pill and gives millions of children the impression that there is something inherently defective in them.

Finally, the illusion that children’s behavior problems can be cured with drugs prevents us as a society from seeking the more complex solutions that will be necessary. Drugs get everyone — politicians, scientists, teachers and parents — off the hook. Everyone except the children, that is.

If drugs, which studies show work for four to eight weeks, are not the answer, what is? Many of these children have anxiety or depression; others are showing family stresses. We need to treat them as individuals."

SO I would be happy if you had any studies that were long term 10 years or so?

Not with insults, not with you projecting your guilt on me. A discussion, without personal attacks.

Are you only able to ansewer with personal attacks? Can you come up with any long term studies.....

Not studies which shows how much putting kids on speed makes the lives of their parents, and their teachers better, but studies which show they help kids?  Not studies that just show they do not kill kids.  But studies that show that drugs help with the problems they are suppose to?

Or if you want to forget about speed. How do you justify putting kids on antipsyhcotics, which is the the class of drugs that are replacing amphetamines today? For ADHD as well as other drugs?

before we continue, alex, i want to clear up something.

these drugs, for example adderall, DO HELP CHILDREN WITH ADHD.  i have given you numerous studies that back that up.

do you accept that, alex??  do you accept that there very much are benefits for children who do take this medication for treatement of their ADHD??

i have only heavily researched adderall, alex.

unlike you, i only feel comfortable making judgement calls on stuff i've taken the time to understand, rather than condemning people based on 20 minutes with an article i saw in last weeks' 'new york times'.

this particular 'long term study' that you are quoting from... where is it, and who did it??  what drug was tested??

and are you basing ALL THIS THREAD on this ONE long term study??

because i have never seen any clinical study that shows that adderoll works for only 4-8 weeks.   heck, in my kids alone its been working for YEARS...

i have tried to look it up on your origional post, but i can't find a link to it...

i'm assuming you have it somewhere, because you seem so adament about all this...

No one I have ever meet who took them as children, would give them to their children because they blame them for al sorts of problems, and side effects.

But why does it matter that I have to agree with you. Why do you beleiev I or others believ bad things about you. You have made al sort of claims, you have called me stupid, you have not read what I have written, and you seem to be a very insecure person, who believes other think that you are a bad parent.

I feel sorry for your pain. but I will not lie to you and tell you what I do not believ just so that you can feel better about yourself.

Look sigh if you are not willing to read the post at the begining and read the references, why would you read them now, if I post them again.

Look we have doctors prescribing massive ammounts of mind alterating drugs. Thuis started to be done in a wide spread way in the seventies.   Amphetamines replaced violence as a way to control children, in my opinion. The medical doctors whop prescribed them claimed it would help these children, and that it was not meant to make them easier to proscribe. Now after two genration of children have grown up on them the medical establishment is slowly giving up on amphetamines, and are moving towards antipshycotics. Agains I say they are only meant to be used as a control device, and again the doctors who presecibe them say that it is menat to help children.

In both cases of amphetamines and antipsyhoctics, there are no long term studies that prove that they help kids, with ADHD, or morther conditions.. In the case of antipsycotics, there are not even short term studies. 

HOwevr they is plenty of evidence they they make kids more manageble.(controlable) As well they make kids sick with a myraid of health problems.

well, i know quite a few adults who say that they fit the profile of ADHD as children, and ONLY WISH that they could have taken something to help them...

one person in particular has been battling depression all her life, to the point where she almost abandoned her family... her son was diagnosed with ADHD, and as she was reading the profile, she recognized herself. 

so, a few years ago she started taking adderall... and BOOM.  she felt like she had just come out of a fog.  she started to really respond to her other therapies for depression... which completely makes sense - once you are actually able to FOCUS on what the therapist is saying, therapy actually WORKS!!! 

alex, she is so much better now... i shudder to think what would have happened to her and her family if she hadn't discovered the adderall. 

my brother will also tell you that when he was in school, he fit the profile of ADHD pretty well too... he was SO FRUSTRATED.  and he was the most physically active kid you'd ever want to meet, too... he played football, was on the track team...

once he got into his early 20's, he suddenly came out of the fog as well - until then, he really struggled.  started using drugs, depressed... but he felt that all change one day, and said it was suddenly like he could just THINK.  so, he got himself sorted out, and he is in the process of getting his electrician certification.

he is always saying that he WISHES that he could have had the drugs my kids had, because he might have accomplished so much more, and he would be so much further ahead today. 

right there, alex... 2 people who struggled, unmedicated, with ADHD and who finally got relief as adults - one with the medication, and one who just grew out of it, like my daughter did. 

i'd suggest that perhaps you need to 'meet' a few more people before you get too carried away with all this, alex.  what you don't know is pretty extensive, apparently.

you dont' have to agree with me.  you need to admit that your claim that these medications do not work was false, and that in fact there are MANY MANY studies that show that medications like adderall work very well for many people with ADHD.

whether or not you agree with me is irrelevant.

well, because you compared me to a child molestor and a child abuser, and you said that i probably don't spend enough time with my children, and that i am poisoning my children for my own benefit.

are you saying that you say stuff like that to people you LIKE?!?!?

no.  i gotta stop this one here... i didn't call you stupid.

i said that your attitude was stupid.

and if you continue to believe that adderall doesn't help kids with ADHD, even after all the evidence i've shown you that proves that isn't true, then yeah, thats a pretty stupid attitude.

i say the same thing about people who INSIST that gays should not be allowed to adopt children, even in the face of MOUNTAINS of evidence that shows gays are every bit as competant parents as their heterosexual peers. 

ROTFLMAO!!

i have read every single word you have written, alex!!  my posts are direct quotes from your posts!!! 

and again, alex, don't flatter yourself by thinking that you are making me feel insecure.  the only one who thinks i am a bad parent is you, and to be quite honest i don't have any respect for anything you say anymore.  its bizarre... i used to read your posts on other threads with a sense of 'heres someone who knows what hes talking about'.  now, i find myself just not even caring what you say anymore...

LOL!! 

alex, again, don't flatter yourself... our discussion here hasn't caused me any 'pain'!!!! 

trust me, there isn't anything that you could say at this point which would make me feel much more than incredulous that i ever put any stock in what you said, let alone 'better about myself'.

wow Alex,

you are so out of line here.

Initially you posted a couple of articles from the paper which could have been of interest to folks.

Could have sparked a discussion on whether they were valid articles or not.

Instead you started on a rant about parenting and kids with adhd.

Are there kids on drugs like ritalin and aderol that don't need them.  Very likely.  Just like there are people on antibiotics that don't need them.

But the majority of parents are interested in helping their children cope with life.

What happened to these kids in the past.

they were the ones sitting daily in the principals office, the ones who didn't "get" school and left early.

You owe sighs an appology

i looked for the study that these 2 articles are referencing, and i couldn't find it on the 'times' website.

have you actually READ the study that they are discussing, or are you just taking their opinions as the final say on the subject??

well, the studies that i have shown you disclaim a few of your statements here...

1 - there is ample proof that medications like adderall help children living with ADHD. 

2 - your opinion is based on incorrect information.

as to the side effects, they are like anything else... once the benefits are outweighed by the side effects, you stop the drug. 

that hasn't happened with my kids.  the side effects are pretty easy for them to deal with.  it was a challenge to find the right fit, as all kids are different and what works for one kid doesn't work for the next. we started with dexedrine, and although that worked, the insomnia thing was a real issue.  so we switched to strattera, which SEEMED to work, but then the kids started noticing that it wasn't working anymore.  when we tried adderall, it was the perfect fit, and the kids have had no trouble ever since.

ritalin wasn't even offered as an option, alex... its a first generation drug, and when i saw the side effects, i wasn't comfortable with it, so the pediatrician found something that was better.  again, flies in the face of your whole 'medical machine rolling over children' idea there. 

not to mention that the pediatrician taked TO MY KIDS about all this, and took all the time they needed so they would understand what was going on. 

your idea that this is something that is done without any consultation with the kids at all is simply not my experience.  in particular, my daughters opinion was VERY MUCH a part of our decisions.

look, alex....

i think that its pretty clear that we aren't going to come to any kind of a resolution here. 

at this point, i think that we have both said things that have clouded any sense of objectivity the other has.  in my experience, once that happens there isn't much of a discussion anymore, and you are pretty much just talking to a wall.

lets simply agree to disagree on this for now.  lets both take time to cool off, and perhaps at a later date we can come back to this topic with calmer heads and more objectivity than we have right now.

i have said things to you in this thread that were hurtful, and for that, alex, i am TRULY SORRY.   especially when i commented that you had a 'stupid attitude.'  that was highly inflamatory speech on my part, and i should not have said that. 

again, my apologies.