Kinst - the thing I don't understand is why you still consider this person your 'best friend'.    It seems that he condemns you for being who you are.  Is this what a 'best friend' does?

What do you get out of this relationship?  Do you have anything in common?  Do you enjoy hanging out with him?  Go bowling together?  Discuss your classes, what you are studying?  books you both have read and enjoyed?  music?  hobbies?  hopes and dreams for the future?    These are things I would do with a 'best friend'.  I would hope that my 'best friend' would understand me, advise me, and support me.  I would hope that he would also respect me, confide in me, and take my advice on some things. 

Somehow I just can't seem to get a grasp on your relationship but it doesn't seem to be meeting your needs in any way.

You ask:

"Isn't it possible to convince him to accept me if I perservere? It's my story and I don't want it to be over yet."

Maybe, but in my experience, that is unlikely.  At some point, his is most likely to outgrow his current shallow understanding of the world and God, but some never do.

I must say, though, that I am confused as to why you want to preserve this arrangement, which barely sounds like a friendship at all from this angle.

I take it from your post that your circle of friends/acquaintances is mostly limited to the campus crusade folk.  I can certainly understand that if that's all you've known for friends, and if you don't really know anyone outside of this circle, preserving what you have, even if it's less than ideal, would be important.

That said, I can't really see much of a future in this relationship.  A fundamentalist who sees your "lifestyle" as inherently sinful will either need to convert you, or will make it well known that he believes you are condemned.  He may at some point be pushed by a pastor or church groups to distance himself from you if you won't repent.

From your perspective, I don't think (based on what you've posted) that you are receiving the care and support that you deserve in a best friend.  In any degree of friend, really.

There is probably a gay-straight alliance group at your school, or a group(s) specifically for GLBTQs.  Try and sound these groups out.  Additionally, your profile says you're into Linux.  I take it you're pretty adept with computers, maybe even a comp sci student.  Maybe you'll find friends among this demographic.

There may also be other church groups in and around your campus that will be more open and welcoming.  My own church has a weekly dinner for university students, church membership isn't a requirement, plus it's free.  You might find a church (UCC or otherwise) that has the same type of program.

You can't let go of your fundy friends before you make new ones.  That is the dilemna I am in.  I am not gay but I have an increasingly liberal outlook that my fundy friends do not approve of.  So unless you want to hang out alone you are stuck with this friend.

I just keep my mouth shut and go along with them.  It is hard to find new friends and it is better to go bowling with a bunch of fundys than to go alone or to stay home and watch tv.  Occaisonally I try to give them a different perspective on things.

I am not sure that liberal Christians exist in our age group.  We may have to wait until we are old and no one cares anymore, become atheists and hang out with them, or keep hanging around fundys.

"Oh and he says I shouldn't read the bible anymore because the more I know the more to hell I'm going. I know eh."

You're friend has it all wrong.

"I read scripture and what I get from reading is that I have to love and forgive no matter what. And I pray all the time that we can still be friends."

And you, my friend, have it all right - at least in this regard.

Seems to me your friend could learn a thing or two about following Jesus, forgiveness, and Christian love from you.

Blessings on you,

Ariel

 In support of Kinst's and Serena's view of friendships with more fundamentalist Christians...

I, too, have a friend that is fundamentalist.  While I have not gone through the same scenario as you, Kinst, I have gone through some of the same arguments.  For a while he was trying to convince me that I'm sending my youth group kids to hell because of blah blah blah.  Then he questioned the UCC as a church because of blah blah blah.  Then my college and career group is going about things wrong because we don't blah blah blah.  I haven't even bothered telling him I'm starting up a church based gay straight alliance -- because then, according to him, I'll be condemning even more kids to hell because of blah blah blah.

People ask me why I stuck with this friend -- much like people are asking you why you're still friends with this guy.  I'm going to go out on a limb and say you've been friends for a long time -- that's the situation with me and my buddy.  Years of friendship are hard to throw away over something... anything.

With my deep disagreements, we just avoided the subject of religion.  (I made sure never to talk about it in his presence, but I don't think he realised I was doing that on purpose.)  Eventually it boiled down to an angry simmer... I was always angry at this friend.  After a few years of this, I finally realised, I either need to drop him as a friend or forgive and forget.  Not wanting to lose a friend -- since there's more to a friend than religious discussion -- I personally forgave him.  (But I didn't tell him... he still has no idea all this went on.)

My advice for you?  I don't really have any.  You'll have to find out what works for you and your friend.  If he is a good friend, except for this specific situation, you can probably find a way to work around it until it settles with him.  Or, if it's more trouble than it's worth, move on.  You have to decide.  But you don't have to decide now -- you can try a few things out or just sit by and see what happens, and then decide.

Your decision not only has to be what's best for your friendship, but also for your mental and emotional health.  You don't want to be angry 24/7.

Whatever you do, I wish you the best of luck.

How much worse is a fundy friend who says you are going to hell because he cares about you or a liberal friend who thinks that his beliefs are superior than yours?  It is two sides of the same coin methinks.

Thanks guys, I really appreciate all of your voices. I know he's being a bad friend right now. We used to be really close though. We could talk about everything else and he's really hilarious, friendly and loyal. Until pretty much just now he made me happier.

I have other friends too. Actually I'm a physics student. I know everyone in the department and almost everyone in the campus environment group (I paint and wear the tree costume ), and that's a really huge group. I have a ton of random friends too, and old friends from volunteering and high school.

I don't really know any other people like me, just me and a closet case from C4C who taught me computers(I kind of worry about him). The next time the queer centre has a welcome day I'll go. And I've been visiting UCs and I've met older happy couples. It gives me hope I can find someone one day and have a little place for myself in Toronto.

I'm not mad at my friend though. Anger's bad karma. Or something like that. I'm going to try really hard to forgive. I don't want to be righteous, I just want my friends. I tend to get sad instead of angry.

I think it's helped a lot to talk about it.

And you won't find any friends your own age in the UC Church.  A very high percentage of the membership is age 50 and up.  You have to search for your friends and life partner outside of Church.  When you and your life partner have children there will be no Sunday School or Youth programs.  But hey when you retire with your life partner you will fit right in. 

On another tangent you don't want to marry a fundy either because they are hard to live with.  In my case I don't want to submit and can't stand the woman inferiority crap theology.

lol I don't think I'll face that problem Serena.

 Actually Serena, I've seen a recent increase in the amount of younger couples (under 40) and children in our church.  Our youth ministry is growing so fast that we can't adequately resource it.  We might be an abnormality, but I'm enjoying it.  

However, we are in a more rural (Alberta) area.  Chances are you won't find your life partner here either.  But if you come, you'll be welcome!!

Now now, people, let's not knock the UC too badly. My church in my hometown has OODLES of kids and young families. But then, it's a sizable city and a lot of that has to do with our recent hiring of a minister who is an excellent speaker: many people from their 20s to their 40s who didn't regularly attend before are now coming to hear him speak!

The other UCs that I'm familiar with in our city though are indeed suffering from what Serena mentions! ;-)

Kinst, I'm with YouthWorker, when I say that I understand why you are still friends with this guy, despite the fundamental difference of opinion...pardon the play on words. I've broken off with some friends when I was young and tend to be really sorry about it, and I've clung to friendships for a long time because old friends are priceless and the good memories we've shared with them are some of the sweetest things. I do think though that you need another group of friends who can support you as a homosexual man so that you don't feel you have to hide and pretend all the time. Eventually, if you don't already, you will probably feel quite lonely in your C4C group because you cannot truly be yourself. All the universities I'm aware of, and probably most of the colleges too (if you are in a community college) have a community devoted to acceptance of the homosexual, bisexual, and transsexual et al.community, and education of the rest of the students and faculty. Often they have social events, group meetings, etc. I suspect C4C has a group feeling that other university clubs may not share by virtue of their shared "crusade" in the face of "adversity," but any group that is devoted to some sort of education and cause brings this. Do you have a special interest you could write an article about for your student newspaper? Are you interested in helping your campus to be greener and more environmentally friendly? Do you play a musical instrument or sing? All of these have been ways that I've gotten involved with high school and campus groups in the past. There's also theatre and student government groups. This may help you to find another social group and the opportunity to build new friendships.

I personally can't believe that God condemns homosexual activity. I belive that people themselves are afraid of it because it is different. Surely God, with a greater perspective of humanity and the universe is not so shallow?

So there we go kenzie, there are more children & youth in rural Alberta churches, and Maritime city churches. Go UCC!

Greetings!

I think if he is a true friend, despite his personal belief system at this moment in time, he should respect and be respectful of you for who you are.  I think you need to have this discussion with him.  Ask him if he can agree to keep his beliefs to himself at this time, and just continue to be your friend.  Perhaps you need to set up some boundaries/parameters for your friendship as to what kind of conversation is acceptable and what is off limits. 

You may have to have friendships separate from him with other friends who are more accepting and encouraging in your finding someone to care for and be with.  But all our friendships are somewhat like that.  We are and do and have different friendships with different friends.   (eg . . . we don't necessarily go curling with our curling friends if we don't curl, but we do other things with them.)

Hope everything works out okay for you . . .

Hope, peace, joy, love . . .

i believe your wrong, being bad would indicate a malace in his heart for you, your posts show that he has care and concern and good for you, thats not being bad, he may, being human  deliver his good intensions in a wrong way, but his intent though it may be wrong is a  good one.

If his intent is to make Kinst feel that there is something wrong with his sexuality, then yes, he is a bad friend.

I know you share that point of view, BB.  You would also be a bad friend for anyone who is not heterosexual.

well i guess then your worse off, being a rev and all when your good intensions  come accrose the  worng way, makes you look really bad, so according to your view, you are

Hey don't fight. I don't think it's malice either, maybe homophobia or something.

I figure I'm old enough to read and to pray, and can therefore figure stuff out for myself. Maybe that's why I made a bad Catholic . 

Hi Kinst – I admire you for your commitment to keep this friend a part of your life – and I hope you know that it’s okay to let the friendship go (or take a pause) if you are not feeling affirmed or happy. I am also glad that you have many other friends as well - it is important to have people in your life who accept, love and respect you for who you are. I encourage you to seek out queer groups, activities, events at your university. If you’re in the city of Toronto there should also be youth/young adult groups to connect with as well (perhaps check out Xtra magazine or something like that).

As must has I'm suspicious of Evangelicals, I think you have something workable here.  He can overlook the fact that you are gay and you can overlook the fact that he is Evangelical. 

Yes, at one level, your friendship doesn't make sense.  However, both of you must enjoy the frienship, otherwise it would have ended long ago.  Your friendship seems to have an aspect that transcends your incompatibility.  Frienships are valuable and shouldn't be thrown away easily.

Ride it as long as it lasts.  If it ends, be thankful that it lasted as long as it did.

Kinst indicated that his friend told him to stop reading the Bible. That is very wrong. The Holy Spirit could very well be working on Kinst's heart and making him hungry for the Word. In telling him to stop reading the Bible, Kinst's friend could be interfering with the work of the Holy Spirit.

One does not have to be "saved" or "perfect" or anything else in order to read the Bible. It is one way that God reveals Himself to us. How could any Christian, like Kinst's friend, discourage someone from reading it? I found this very disturbing.

I did'nt say his friend was right, I was pointing out that his friend was not being bad.

I honestly don't have a clue what you are saying here.

Your friend, your choice :)  I understand the difference between malice and homophobia to be one of information - someone who is homophobic generally simply doesn't know better, as opposed to someone who is malicious.

Is that the distinction you are making, as well?  If so, then maybe there is a great window for hope here, assuming he is willing to listen to you.  Even if he doesn't want to talk about it, if he can just accept being your friend, you can gradually show him that your sexuality doesn't define you, and maybe you can open his eyes.

I wish you luck.

Hi Kinst - if you're in Toronto now - kinda sounds that way - have you tried Metropolitan United Church?  Or Bloor St. United?  I think you might like either for their liberal and inclusive views.

Is your friend likely to change?  Hard to say.  Sounds like the C4C crowd has a big influence on him right now, so if change occurs, it probably won't be for a long time, would be my guess.  Whether you're there in person, or just in memory, I imagine you've made some impact on him - whether he acknowleges that or not.

Yeah, I went to Metropolitan. It's pretty epic. Quasimodo gave me a tour, and I got to play the giant bell piano. I like it there, I'll probably go back. I study at Mcmaster though, so I don't know, maybe I'll have to start my own church . I'll try Bloor St. United some time when I have a weekend off.

Everyone who's given advice has helped. A lot. I'm not really used to people caring. I'll try to make more friends I can trust, and I'll give things with my friend time. Youthworker's right, I can't decide what to do yet.

Thanks everyone.

In Hamilton try Ryerson United.  It certainly used to be a very inclusive style of church although I odn't know about now.

Not if he's a Evangelical-baptist-fundie...

But seriously, it will take a lot of mental restructuring and ignorance shattering before he will accept you as gay and not have a problem with it IMO.

As-Salaamu Alaikum

-Omni

Ok, I got bored and skipped over the last dozen or so posts, (it's that stupid teenage attention span,) but I still want to stae my opinion.

I find, that despite whatever situation you may be in, whether you be of another race, class, or sexual orrientation, with enough love you can always atleast convince the people around you to respect who you are.

I recomend you don't spend ALL your time with this friend, because being around negative influences can severely damage your emotional well being, but still keep up a strong relationship with him, and with enough time, I'm sure he'll come around.

I understand the situation you're in, and I'll be praying for you!

I too have has bad experences with Campus Crusaders.

Cheers,

JH

hmmmm...In the beginning God created MAN & WOMAN. two different people. It doesn't day God created man to BE a woman ro Woman to be a man. I beleive it is an unsult to God to mke youself  someone you are not created to be. Sorry to say.. but You need to be free from that bondage of where you were wrapped up in. This kinda life is unacceptable to God.

 Kinst - if you spend time together as friends, doing lots of stuff friends do, and this Gay/Crusade issue is a small part of your relationship, then don't just walk away.  I have a friend who was very different from me in many ways, but we liked each more than we were different.

But if most of your time together is being lectured or prodded or encouraged by him to be different than you are, and especially with him acting like he knows more than you, then this is no longer a friendship, it is more likely a familiar power situation.  You are feeling none, and he is taking all of it.  Not fair, and striking out on your own (though hard to do) is not the worst thing that could happen.  Settle your affairs, give back the stuff he has lent you, get back yours and stop returning his calls.

Good luck!

That is hurtful Eagles wings - I think there are other ways you could phrase that.  Besides, if we all knew what God really wanted, this world would look much different.

Kinst - Does spending time with this person make you feel better about yourself or worse?  Friends are supportive of each other, and respect that they do not share all of the same views.  If your friend can't accept who you are, he is not a true friend.

So which is it EA? Should he be what God has created Him to be, or should he stop being homosexual to satisfy what you fundies tell God to say about it?

Quite frankly, your post is contradictory as well as being prejudicial.

hey kinst !

i really can't say that i have any real advice for you in this situation, however you do have my admiration.

what do i admire? simply the fact that you know it's okay to be gay, and a christian too!

i feel that the bible was written as a guideline, thousands of years ago, for the betterment of all man-kind. this meant getting married, and having children. however, we all know that same-sex couples don't reproduce.

nowadays, things have drastically changed. you don't need large families to support the farm or whatever. the earth's population is strong.

i firmly believe that God is not opposed to being gay, lesbian, or bi. i think that he just wants us all to be happy in our lives.

Kinst;

I could easily be wrong about this, but it sounds like your "friend" has a crush on you. Scripture has simply become a tool for him to convince you to "change your ways" so that you become available to him in a "straight" relationship.  So he also probably feels a certain disappointment when his arguements don't change you, in the same way that a straight guy or gal is really disappointed when that other person they have developed a crush on doesn't have the same feelings towards them. Sometimes it takes a long time to get over this disappointment. If your friend can heal from the disappointment, there is room for your friendship to continue. If not, the hurt may be such that he can't continue, as each time he sees you, it only reminds him of failure.

In a way, the concept of "destiny" or "fate" or "God's will" helps here - even if you or he don't believe in it. Attributing a relationship failure to "God's will" - ie, this was not "meant" to be - takes some of the sting away. One can't have failed if it was not meant to be in the first place. But this healing process can only begin once your friend can accept that your relationship is not going to turn out the way he had hoped.

PS Thanks for the Romans reference. I hadn't thought of it in this context, but it really speaks to me.

Spiritbear, I'm a dude too. He's my bro.

And right now it's like he just went down a couple friendship levels. Still friends, but there's too much we can't talk about. I don't see us being best friends again, but I'll still hang around.

...which just tells me that I should read profiles before proffering my (inappropriate) advice!  Thanks for "straightening" me out.

It's cool. Actually it's pretty funny.

Hi kinst!

Tonight has been my first time ever on this site and it was your story that made me decide to join, just so that I could write to you.

Your loyalty in spite of adversity says a lot about you personally.  Your fundy friend has a long road to travel and he would do well to begin with learning the religion he supposedly follows.  Here's a good place for him to start.

Testament basically means contract.  The Old Testament is the laws handed down and the rules to follow to qualify in God's eyes.  The New Testament is the Christian part of the Bible, replacing the old contract.  The whole point of Jesus dying on the cross was that his sacrifice would permit all people to be forgiven.

Forgiven means that no matter what you've done, the penalty has already been paid, by Jesus, so that you had a chance at eternal life.  Sounds good, eh?

All that crap in Leviticus that everyone waves in your face?  Old news.  That is forgiven.  Now the rules are what Jesus said.  His rules are pretty simple.  Follow what you believe and believe in him.  I'd say you qualify pretty well.

You might want to share that with your christian buddy.

As for relationships, you needn't worry.  When you're ready for that, there are lots of wonderful people out there who would be honored to know you.  I'm one of them.

Stay sweet and stay happy.  Don't let someone try to convince you that you are less than the stars.  Keep shining.

Welcome webcat - I like your picture.

Thanks webcat. I think you have great wisdom. Okay well it's been a while and it's time for an update. I have a confession actually. We've grown apart a lot. I just avoid everything personal. He just talks about his stupid club. I believe that the most important calling of Christ is to forgive, but it's pretty ***ing hard work. So I guess that means I'm the worse person if I can't even forgive someone.

Oh and the whole week I've been working hard on a petition for MacGreen (we want compost at school). This girl from C4C told me she didn't want to sign because she hates the environment. Can you believe that? Sometimes my (former) best friend admits he and everyone in campus crusade are hypocrites. I just kind of nod and bite my tongue.  I haven't even told him about the United Church despite my affection for our liberal awesomeness.

On the other hand I joined the GLBT centre at Mac and made amazing new friends. I'm not very comfortable talking about spirituality around them, but I think I'm going to get a group together to visit the affirming church in Hamilton (yeah I STILL haven't gone - I only go to church when I'm in Toronto it seems). Maybe my calling is to help the ones the campus crusaders reject. I'm definitely not the only gay christian at Mac. If I'm really open-minded / sensitive maybe we can start something.  I'll update you guys. Yeah so that's how to story seems to be going...

Thanks for the update Kinst!

Lots of people grow apart in undergrad as they find their interests diverging, so that's not unusual in itself. I admire your loyalty. Try to avoid the common pitfall of beating yourself up for not being all-forgiving. I consider myself a Christian etc., but in many cases Lines Must Be Drawn in relationships for the sake of your own sanity. God can forgive everyone, and it's reasonable to want to show compassion and patience.

I'm glad you have friends at GLBT. I'm sure many of them would be interested in checking out the UCC with you, though probably not everyone will. Some people in the GLBT group have experienced a lot of rejection in connection with religion (well, you know THAT) and get pretty hostile and rejecting of religion in return.

And also, welcome to webcat! I, too, like your avatar.

Hey Kinst,

My 2 cents here: Don't give up on him. I think he just needs to grow a bit. If your friendship is worth anything to you give him time (and probably space) to figure things out. One of my best friends is gay. It took me a while to reconcile my faith and homosexuality but he didn't give up on me and I'm VERY glad he didn't. I still beleive that the Bible considers homosexual sex a sin, but I know God loves my friend, I know that he loves God, and I know we love each other. What most "fundies" don't understand is that this world runs better when we are allowed to have different opinions, and more importantly, that having a different opinion doesn't mean we can't have great relationships. Don't give up on God either. Christianity is a relationship between each of us and the Creator. He can use others to guide us along, but don't let people tell you how your relationship should be; its your (yours and God's) relationship not anyone else's.

Wow wonderingg, that's probably the best news I've heard since the story of Jesus Christ.

Hi again

Sorry it's been so long since the last posting.  I've been involved with the outside world.

One of my favourite sayings is:

"It doesn't matter who you love, or what you love, but rather THAT you love."

I've been privileged all my life to have straight, gay, lesbian, bi, and transgendered friends.  I've also had friends from most religions and nationalities.  The one thing we all had in common was friendship.  Anything beyond that didn't really matter.

Of course, we all see things differently.  That makes life colourful and interesting.  There's no reason for division between us.

I love eating at a buffet.  I don't complain if there is liver there. I just don't eat that.  It has no effect on my enjoying a good feast of sushi or chicken.  And I'm not horrified because someone only wants to eat salad either.

You get much farther in life by including others instead of pushing them away.

Kinst, if I knew how to contact you, I'd gladly join you at church one day.  I'm in Toronto and MCC is a lovely place to visit.  And I know we'd both be welcome!!!

or

If you were an atheist for so long how come you started to read the bible again - to make him happy or make you feel accepted by your friend?

I also say don't give up on the friendship but I DEFINITELY say be careful. Think of him as drowning in dogma and judgementalism. While it's noble to save someone who is drowning you have to be careful not to be pulled under yourself. At this point he will benefit a lot more from the friendship than you will but down the road, who knows. It's more than possible that GOD will work on him in wonderful ways. In short be loving, cautious, and patient.

this is sensible advise!