Never say never .... if you lie to spare someone from hurt is it right or wrong ?

 It is right to lie if it prevents death, or a war, or anything major. I do not know where you draw the line. If Nazis showed up at my door, looking for people that were hiding in my basement. I would lie. Not everyone deserves the truth and some can not understand it.

To spare someone feelings i would try to say, the dress is not as slimming as the black dress.

I would never lie to the sick or the dieing.

As per most other topics, I am reluctant to move into absolutes with this question. My ex-mother-in-law was determined to be scrupulously honest in all of her dealings (as a result of her fundamentalist beliefs). She hurt many people with this approach, including me, and the result was that many people avoided her, including me.

I don't think I could ever say that I wouldn't lie to the sick or dying. One television show I watched fairly recently struck a chord in me...a young male doctor is sitting with a terminally ill patient. The patient mistook the doctor for her husband, as she was in her last moments and said, "is that you, George, coming to meet me"...the doctor held her hand and responded with, "yes, Jean, I'm here". My first thought was that it was a lie and then I wondered who was harmed by that. I know that TV romanticizes things like that but now I'm thinking that the story framed this question in such as way as to convey it as an act of care...

So, the question for me is, if I desire to respond to people in love, how does it square with standing on principle? There is the letter of the law and the spirit of the law...they look quite different to me. The upshot is, while I try to be extremely honest, I can't say that I would absolutely never lie.

i lie alot, too...

yesterday, i lied to my daughter because i didn't have time at the moment to enter into a long discussion with her.  later on, when i had time, i admitted that i lied, and we had the inevitable discussion.

i also lied to them about santa clause, the tooth fairy and the easter bunny, and when they were old enough to understand, i explained that these characters are created by adults and why.  i chose to do this because when i was a child, these characters made the world a truly magical place for me, and i wanted to allow them that opportunity as well. 

You go out when you get ready
And you come home when you please
You just love me when you want me baby
And you think it outta be all right with me

When I try to talk to you baby
And let you know just how I feel
You tell me if I don’t like it
You know someone else will
 

Oh, but I done got wise to you baby
You’re not the only bird in the sky
Oh so don’t ask me no questions now baby
And I, I won’t tell you no lies

The immortal words of B. B. King, Ask Me No Questions

My experience has been those who "demand" the truth are not seeking it but instead want confirmation of their own perceptions, positive or negative.  The truth of the question is rarely about the skirt,  it is do you love me. 

Perhaps the honesty of the responder should not be the only one held up to scrutiny but the intent of the inquisitor as well.

LB

The truth will set you free. But first, it will piss you off.

     Gloria Steinem

Well thanks, Sigh...I guess I am a chronic liar too.  And I'm ok with it.  Good thread:  I learned today that I believe that there is a time and place for lies.

Lying isn't good. But excessive honnesty isn't always good either.

Some people live in a black and white world where lying is never good and blablabla.... moral rigidity is really lame and primitive. 5 year olds live by moral rigidiy. Adults are supposed to have grown past that. 

When wondering if lying is right or wrong, it's better to wonder how much good versus harm it will do, and what's the point. I think I'm okay with lying if it's done with altruistic intentions - for the sake of someone else who really needs it, I'd lie. For selfish intentions - avoiding responsibility for my actions - it's pretty lame.

But when i tell the truth, I don't always go into details either, which might be considered lying by omission to some, but not everyone needs to know the whole truth all the time. 

Lying... like everything else... depends on the situation. Usually it's not right because people do it for the wrong reasons.  

Greetings!

For the most part, in my life, I try and be honest and truthful.  But, yes, I've lied over the course of my lifetime . . . sometimes not to hurt someone, sometimes to protect someone, sometimes like in the instances of Santa Claus or Easter Bunny it was a tradition that was meaningful to me as a child and I passed it on to my children, and sometimes it seemed easier at the time to lie-but more difficult in the long run.  Sometimes the lies take a form of ommission of information, rather than telling a bold face lie.

Alex posted "Not everyone deserves the truth and some can not understand it."   I found this to be an interesting statement.  It made me think.  The "some who cannot understand" might be like an alzheimer patient that might not be told someone in their family who has died because they don't even have rememberance of who that person is.  Or they have been told time and again, and the family eventually let's it go.  Alex said that if certain people showed up at his door where he was hiding people in his basement he would lie ... that would be another instance where most would be tempted to lie, and lie at a risk for their own safety.

Hope, peace, joy, love . . .

Nobody is truthful all the time .... in some ways that would make them a pathological liar

I think sometimes it is cruel to be truthful.

Do you tell your (overweight teen) that she is fat and ugly because it is for her own good to lose weight?  Or do you, as the parent take time and teach her about healthy food choices and embark on an exercise program with her?  Telling her that she is fat will only make her eat more and a 12-15 doesn't have the skills or tools to lose the weight anyway.  Maybe not the self esteem either.  Likely she knows she is fat.  The kids at school call her that all the time.  I think that if you, as the parent, aunt/friend, of this fat person do not want to make the time to help him/her deal with the problem it is probably best for the person's self esteem not to tell them they are fat.

When the Bible talks about "bearing false witness"  I think it speaks more to in the court of law where people were set up for crimes and people who never saw the person would stand up in court and say "I saw the plaintiff stealing that cow" or whatever.  It does not speak to "I saw your wife Mary staring at the roofer without a shirt for three hours on the roof"  That kind of truth is troublemaking.

The fundamentalist would say the doctor is probably going to hell for lying to the woman and allowing her to think that her husband did not come to be with her when she died.  His lie allowed the woman to feel safe, die in peace, and die feeling loved.  What a terrible doctor he is.  May his soul burn in hell for all eternity for that one.

I think MO5 is refering to an episode of House - "Histories"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histories_(House)

After considering what she went through the doctor could not have been any more mericful ....

Ya gotta consider the big picture .... always

jesouhaite777  that was sarcasm

I totally agree with pretending to be who the person thinks you are short of having intercourse.  Most of the patients think I am their daughter or grand daughter.

LOL but having intercourse while pretending to be someone else is more fun .....

And I think that you fill quite a void in those patient's hearts when their real families cannot or will not be with them .

It is but sometimes you can be charged for impersination.  I think of cases where a husband has crawled into bed with his wife's sister or twin sister and the deed happened. I really think the guy does not know because he is focussed on the act not the emotional aspect.  A woman would know if she slept with her husband's brother or twin brother.  A guy, I think, can be drunk and sleep with someone who looks like his wife and really not be aware that he has done anything wrong.

I do.   Families cannot give up their jobs and lives and move into the nursing home and sit with mom and dad 24/7.   That person has lost their whole life and they only get to see their kids a few hours per week.  It is why I keep going back and answer to many names.

I wonder about the fallout if a husband slept with his wife's sister?  I think that I would keep quiet about that if I knew.   They made a mistake and if this came to light it could cause a divorce and a family split between the two sisters.  Yet if you are quiet the wife is living a lie.

Life is not black and white.  I am glad that I have no sisters for my husband to sleep with.

That is not a lie to me. Santa exists. To quote Francis Pharcellus Church. 

 He exists as certainly as love and generosity and devotion exist, and you know that they abound and give to your life its highest beauty and joy... There would be no childlike faith then, no poetry, no romance to make tolerable this existence. We should have no enjoyment, except in sense and sight. The eternal light with which childhood fills the world would be extinguished.

....

No Santa Claus! Thank God! he lives, and he lives forever. A thousand years from now, Virginia, nay, ten times ten thousand years from now, he will continue to make glad the heart of childhood.

I wish I had been told that Santa was real when I was a child, but alas there was no room in my family's life for art, romance, joy or beauty.  Only real estate was considered real. Now that is a lie to me. 

All I can say is that anyone who believes it's wrong to lie no matter what must be all alone in the world no one to love them and they love no one ..... at it's most basic level right or wrong we lie to protect people that we love and that love us back ....

What is the difference between lying and withholding the truth, or putting a different spin on the truth?  What is the truth?  What constitutes lying?  There's an old saying, "The best lie is a half-truth".  If I say a container is half full, and someone else says it's half empty, is someone lying?  We have all denied the 'truth' or put a different spin on the truth to make it sound appealing.  One of my favourite movies is 'Liar, Liar' with Jim Carrey.  If we all had to tell 'the truth' for 24 hours, would we have peace, or pandemonium, or would it make any difference?  Does the commandment 'thou shalt not bear false witness' cover all forms of 'lying', or does it apply to not trying to shaft someone who is innocent?  If all lying came to a halt, Ottawa would be in absolute chaos, not to mention some salespeople and a few preachers.

Hi She_Devil

That would depend upon the individual doing the lying.  Anyone can justify why they would lie, the real question is whether or not anyone would accept that justification.

It is still really lying.  The rationalization doesn't make it not a lie.  Extenuating circumstance may make the lie acceptable.  Does telling the lie hurt an individual?  Does telling the lie harm an individual?

Grace and peace to you.

John

So you are saying that some people are allowed to lie and it is okay and others are not allowed to lie?

What about the flipside where the truth harms the individual?  Then it would be the more loving thing to withold the truth.  The truth does not always set you free.  Sometimes it can hurt you.  Than what is the point of telling it when no good will come of it?

Im not a say nothing kinda person

A lot depends on how you define lying.

Do you mean honouring facts or feelings?

My mother-in-law had alzheimers. Once, when my husband and I were visiting her - she was very agitated.

"I'm very upset", she said. "I've been here a long time, and my mother hasn't visited once."

My husband, her son - an engineer replied, "That's because she died in 1947."

"Did she? Nobody told me".

For the next part of our visit, she was very agitated.

I found it disturbing, and said to my husband on the way home. "Why did you have to say that? All you did was upset her."

"Because it's the truth", he replied. 

But is it? What if your truth is you want to spare someone despair from the past, and nothing can be achieved by making them aware of the facts?

We live in an age where logic rules, But I, for one, don't always think it's the only truth to consider.

When my husband lost his hair when getting chemo for leukaemia, he didn't look as handsome as he once did.

"it looks fine", I said.

My truth was that this was a man I loved.

Personally I think lying should be at a minimum. A few examples were given but I really think most of the time the truth is better even when it's hurtful. We possess the common sense (I hope) to spot the exceptions. I immediately think of Jody Powell, Pres. Carter's press secretary. He was talking about the hostage situation in Iran at a press conference when I reported asked him if anything would be done militarily would be done. A rescue operation (ultimately unsuccessful) was being planned and Powell knew it. Powell looked the reported right in the eye and then flat out lied and said no, they were just in negotiations with Iran for the release of the American hostages. If Powell had told the truth the mission would have never stood a chance. With the lie there was at least the possibility of success. Cases like that may be rare, but they happen. Personally I think it needs to be a pretty drastic case to justify lying, but I'm enough of a realist to know such cases exist.

For me the question is, whose truth is it?  For the mother trapped in the past it was not her truth, she did not live in the world of the son. 

I'll share two stories that I have been recently involved in.

There is a man dying from an incurable tumour.   He is an elderly man so imminent death is not an unexpected fact in his life.  Yet his family ordered that the hopelessness of his diagnosis not be passed on.  In order to cope with the illness he is given morphine, the morphine impacts on his ability to eat and some days he is so drugged up he moves like a zombie.  On more than one occasion he has asked what is happening.  He is perfectly aware that something is wrong but no one will answer him.  He is afraid.  He is afraid of the unknown. 

I view this lie of omission as harmful.  My hands are tied.  I can not violate the wishes of the family.  I live it but do not like it but I equally would not like imposing my definition of truth on that family.  They have their reasons, their facts that I am not privy to, their truth will be told when they are ready. 

There was a lady who was prescribed antibiotics for an infection.  She reacted to these drugs and began hallucinating.  She saw cats and cows in her room.  She was terrified.  None of us told her "the truth" that they were not there.  We chased the offending illusions out from under her bed and out of her room.  She felt relief.  They were true to her.  We would have been "lying" to say they weren't.

When her antibiotics were changed and the hallucinations gone, she apologized for being "so silly thinking there were cows in her room".  We all told her there was nothing to apologize for it was very real for her at the time.

Truth, lies, reality, illusion.  They are concepts of the mind.  They can be affected by external and internal factors.  The sky may be blue to me but to the so called colour blind it is green.  Who is telling the truth?  Maybe the sky really is green and I have been living the lie that it is not.

LB

We are led to believe a lie
When we see not thro' the eye,
     William Blake, Auguries of Innocence

 I hate it when people lie to the sick or the dieing, it only hurts them. Of course there are some who can not understand the truth, and that is a different situation.

The main problem with lieing is that it prevents change. If you are an addict or have a  PDD and people  avoid telling them how hurtful they are to others, the person with the addiction or PDD will not be motivated to change. 

Who should tell them though?  Someone who is willing to work with them to get rid of the addiction or someone who does not give a damn and will only drive them to drink more?

 Everyone should tell them about the hurt people cause them, unless it would be dangerous for the person telling the truth.

Does "everyone" have that right or will "everyone" make it worse and make that person more impossible to reach?

 It is not a right, but a responsibility.

How can it be possible to reach someone at all if no one tells them the truth?

helping is another thing. Sometimes it is impossible to help someone, but by telling the truth they might succeed in getting the person to find someone who can help them.

For example people who have been abused by Priests, are unable to help the Catholic Church. However, if enough people tell the truth about their experiences, the Church could change. At the very least, it would mean that their ability to enable abuse would be reduced, because children today  will be believed, when they report it.

Beshpin,

kant's categorical imperative is certainly one way to see things. It is one theory of many. Absolutely we need a general moral center to determine whether actions are right or wrong, but moral rigidity, where there are absolutes that cannot be bent or broken in certain situations, is a problem. 

And kant's categorical imperative doesn't take into account the spectrum of moral values people hold. We all have priorities, and telling the truth, though certainly in most people's top 5 moral values, doesn't always take 1st place in moral debates. In what circumstances is it permissible to lie? Kant sees none. Is it okay to lie for the sake of saving someone's life? Kant's philosophy would say no, it's better to tell the truth than to save a life - but most people value life more than truth. For adults, categorical imperative isn't realistic, and it is a shame when a person can't see this fact.

Check out Kholberg's stages of moral development http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kohlberg's_stages_of_moral_development. He has an interestive perspective on how people evolve in their moral reasonning. And often, I think the debate over lying is very much applicable here. Why are we lying can often dictate whether it's okay to do it or not. The end goal and the circumstances are weighed heavily when making a decision on which actions to take. Lying is no different. Is it okay to lie? Most of the time no it's not because it creates distrust which hinders on social harmony and the emotional well-being of many. But under some circumstances, and depending on where your moral center's development stands, it can be okay if it's weighed against a more important value.

 I say this to my daughters regularly.

"It's you that makes the clothes look good, not the other way around"

I keep my lies to a minimum. That way I don't have to remember everything I said.

Even if one is telling The Truth, even that doesn't absolve one from taking responsibility for it.

Just a Self-writing poem,

InannaWhimsey

With one responsibility comes more.

What makes you think they don't know the truth already?  Like the fat person eating candy bars?

What if there is no one to help them?  What if they don't need help?  Some people are very happy being fat.  Some people have accepted that they will die early from smoking.

This is different.  We are talking about children being abused.   In that case it is not a simple matter of health problems or paying too high interest on credit cards (shopaholics) this is totally different.

I don't know, but I tend to believe that people with certain conditions who hurt others are unaware of the affect. Anyways that the idea behind "Interventions" Ever see the TV Show? 

I would not tell someone they are fat. If someone close to me had accepted that they are going to die early from smoking or overeating, I would tell them it would make me sad to loose them.

Truth telling  for me is not about telling people what I believe. I can stay silent if I choose. Truth telling is important when people affect me in ways that are significant. Good or bad.   It's important to tell people that I love them as well.

I think that it is important not to tell people that you care about them when you really do not.

I've lied many people in my life and i continue to do so because they would worry less .... to cause someone pain in order to be "truthful" is callous and cruel no matter how much you try to justify it ....

personally im tired of this intervention bs .... did i ask to be saved no , do most people no ? some of us are happy addicts ... ? why take that pleasure away .... how grossly egotistical of someone to intervene ...

my partner smokes and i do not but i don't try to intervene because he is a grown man and he fully knows the risks he is taking , in the same way he does not lecture me about my addiction to all those greasy chicken wings and other deep fried goodies that i can't get enough of even though it might screw up my arteries .....

we moderate  ourselves as best as we can ... he tries to cut down and i try to adapt to something more vegan some days of the week .....

I agree.  I think that the intervention stuff is crap.

People know drinking too much is bad for them.  People know on some level affairs are wrong.  People know smoking is bad for them.  etc.    So if you are going to do an intervention you are just being annoying and you really do not have the right.

I don't think that NOT doing an intervention falls under lying I think it falls under not being a pain in the butt and minding your own business.

Beshpin,

I agree fully :)

Hi She_Devil,

That is not at all what I am saying.

What I am saying is that anyone can rationalize why they lie.  For example, a friend asks me if I think outfit A makes them look ridiculous.  If I think it does and I say that it doesn't I am lying.  Now, what if it is just a matter of taste and I know that the outfit is in fact my friends favourite and my friend is often complimented when wearing it.  If I say it does look ridiculous I am not lying.

Will my friend be hurt by my candor?  Possibly.

Will my friend be hurt by that truth telling?  Possibly.  If I have been a good friend they should understand that I am not telling the truth about the outfit to harm them even if that truth hurts them.

At the same time does my friend's personal taste harm me?  Nope.  

So I judge which is the better thing to do, be brutally honest about how I feel about my friend's choice of clothing or emphasize that how my friend feels about their own choice of clothing is of greater importance.

I can lie about how I feel about that particular outfit or I can understand that my friend's choice of outfit is more about how they feel rather than how I feel.

Either was my not saying how I feel about the outfit is a lie.  Unless my friend is planning to buy that exact same outfit for me it is not important what I think about that outfit.

I would also point out that in extreme circumstance a lie to save a life is more honourable than the truth which would take it.  For example, a crazed gunman has a gun pointed to my friend's head and threatens to kill them if I confirm that my friend is actually John Doe.  Lying means that the gunman will not pull the trigger so what should I do?

Tell the truth and hope that I get to read the eulogy at my friends funeral or tell a lie and hope that the funeral is postponed to sometime later?

In both instances the lie works to preserve a relationship whereas the truth may harm the relationship.

What are the consequences to being found out in either of those lies?

First, my friend finds out that I actually hate their choice of clothing and says, "You don't have to lie to me about whether or not you like my choice of clothes.  I wanted an honest opinion because I think you are a snappy dresser.  Please be honest.  Bearing in mind that honesty can and should be guided by tact I find polite ways to help my friend avoid any future fashion faux pas.

Second, the mad gunman upon learning I lied kills my friend and myself.  Or perhaps he has been apprehended by the police and will be unable to do so for some time and maybe while he is incarcerated he gets help and realizes that killing either of us is not something that he actually wants to do.

In both cases I have lied.  I have deliberately spoken untruth.  

I will have to live with those consequences.

I have, as my only justification for lying in those cases, a desire not to have my words lead to the harm of my friends.  I expect that my friends will forgive me for those lies.  I expect that other friends would be concerned if I chose to use the truth in either instance to hurt my friends and cause them harm.

There are always consequences for lying.  The primary consequence is that folk know that you will lie.  Generally they think better of you if you lie to spare others injury than if you lie to harm others and spare yourself injury.

As outlined above in the extreme case where the truth may harm an individual it can be set aside.  Such cases are extremely rare.  Sometimes the truth may hurt an individual and then the person must make a choice between the truth which will hurt or the lie, which when found out will also hurt.  That doesn't mean the lie doesn't exist if that is what is chosen.

As far as your question about no good coming out of it such questions cannot possibly know all outcomes.  Can good come out of hurt?  Yes.  It hurts to go to the Dentist's office.  Going to the Dentist's office is a requirement of good preventative dental care.  Does going to the Dentist's office harm?  Not unless you have a particularly ineffective dentist.  The dentist does the work you need to have done to prevent greater injury.  It is usually a more painful option than pretending nothing is wrong.

A lie is a lie.  It comes with consequences and you don't always get to pick the consequence you live with.  You might prefer one over the other but as the one telling the lie you don't get to control how the one lied to will respond.

Grace and peace to you.

John

The fundamental rule of Christianity is to forgive. In fact, is it the ONLY thing the Lord's Prayer demands of us. Forgiveness is closely linked to love. Indeed, one cannot love without forgiving - or forgive without love.

If you were to tell a Christian he should not cut someone with a sharp knife, the Christian might think that makes sense as a universal rule. But what about a doctor who does so to save a life?

If you lie to save a person, only a fool would condemn that. It's a big mistake to look in the Bible for specific and universal rules for all situations. That's dogma run wild. And if do it in all situations, you will find you are required to stone disobedient children to death, and to check your clergyman regularly to make sure his skin is without blemish.

You have to look not at verses. You have to absorb the general spirit of the teachings of Jesus. And when you find a passage that contradicts that general spirit (as the stoning of children certainly would), then you ignore that verse.

Perhaps this discussion can then sway into the question - does the truth have to be told harshly for it to be considered the truth?

Explaining to a child that one has cancer or that her father has died can be a very difficult truth to tell. Is the only truth that cancer kills or that dad is wormfood? People would say no, we need to be sensitive to the person's feelings and find ways to tell the truth in a sugar-coated way, where the truth sounds sweet although its core is very bitter indeed. We create ways of telling a truth, and sometimes to protect those we love we embelish it to make it seem less intense than it actually is - when we create these sugar-coats, are we still telling the truth, when underneath it all the truth still hurts? Or are these like lies, methods of intentionally deceiving someone into thinking the truth isn't as bad as it really is?

Beshpin queried Which leads to another important point, do we assume that truth can only reach as far as the knowledge you have? 

And I think that is an excellent question for people to consider when speaking one's truth to another.

Last night a very good friend of mine who is in the final stages of Lou Gehrig's asked me a question that was impossible to answer.  She has decided to cease tube feeding this Friday.  She is ready to move on.

She asked me how long will it take?

I know the medical fact.  I know she could linger for weeks even in her weakened condition.  I also know she asked me that question because she knows that I possess the knowledge.  I know she wants the truth but it is not one that she wants to hear. 

So I answered truthfully for both of us - I don't know.  I don't know exactly therefore I can not give a time line.

There is nothing wrong in saying I don't know even when you think you know because life is full of variables.  Indeed, more often than not, I don't know is the only truth we possess.

I did tell my friend an absolute truth.  I told her she was one of the most admirable and courageous women I have had the good fortune of knowing.  That I was very grateful that I had had the opportunity of meeting her and I will carry her strength.  This was spoken with knowledge and it was true.

LB

What is laid down, ordered, factual is never enough to embrace the whole truth: life always spills over the rim of every cup.
          Boris Pasternak

I think   "I don't know" was the correct response.  Your friend has for sure reasearched death by dehydration and knows it can be long and painful.

but at teh same time it can be quick if the heart gives out .

So, while you both know it may be a slow death, one can hope it will be quick and painless