Hi Lenara - first,  let me welcome you warmly to wondercafe - I don't think I've seen you posting here before.    I'm not a person who easily accesses scripture verses, so I don't think I can help you with that part of your request. 

It sounds as though you're in a difficult position with your mom, hoping to garner her support, or at least to have her stop condemning your decision.   You have my support in what sounds like a very challenging quest.  Her view of God as wanting to punish you for other's deeds is not one I share - rather, I would see God as journeying with you down this path toward eventual peace and security for yourself and your daughter.  Whether or not your mom will be part of that journey, or will be able to do what you hope remains to be seen, but to me it seems perhaps doubtful.  

In my opinion, from what you've written, divorce seems like a positive decision regarding your own future and more importantly that of your child & I'm glad to hear you've got other supports along your way.   I hope you'll stay connected here at the wondercafe too.

Thank you for the welcome, I just signed up this morning. And I thank you for your support.

lenara, welcome to the cafe. It is so hurtful to hear what is done and said to others in the name of religion. Do you live in a Mennonite community? Would there  be other churches that you could go for more support?

Keep an eye on this thread. There are some very wise people here who will be a support to you.

I no longer live in the Mennonite community, but I still have Mennonite family and friends. I live in a city where I have not found a church that I am really comfortable with. I still have my faith, but don't follow the traditions I grew up with. I still have the Family Values that I was taught, and I know that it is those values that will help me help my daughter through this tough time.

I'm sure you will find new friends and a new church quickly. My eyes are watering and my heart fluttering after reading your story. I wish you the best success in your new and fresh life. I firmly believe you are doing the right thing. Absolutely.

I'm afraid I don't know any bible quotes, but there will be others here who do. There is a lot of wisdom here on wondercafe and it is a wellspring of support and friendship! Welcome Lenara. Post often!

I had a co-worker once who grew up in the Menonite church, and became very unhappy and she left it, and found a home in the Congregational church, where she is very happy. Maybe you could try that church?

hi and welcome.

I think your reasons for getting a divorce are about the best I have heard.

Your mother should be thankful that you are putting the needs of your daughter at the fore front of your decisions.

I wouldn't think of divorce as a step towards remarriage though.  I woudl see divorce as a step to prevent your husband form misusing your daughter.

I hope you have a good lawyer who will fight for total custody and only supervised visits.  You certainly cna't allow him to be alone with your child ever again and that is very sad .

Is it possible that your mother is unaware of the gravity of the situation?  Have you been up front about the abuse and now the porn charges? 

I have told my mother absolutely everything, from the first day in September, from the first words spoken by my daughter, right down to what was said/done yesterday. I call her every day with an update. I have always been very close to her and see her as one of my best friends. But this is something that I am afraid will tear us apart. I wish to remain close to her, but I know that I also need to take care of myself and in turn, I will be able to take care of my daughter.

As far as my husband being alone with my daughter, that will never happen again. Currently, there is a supervision order from Child Welfare, to make sure I don't allow him anywhere near her, as well as there is a No Contact order from the police advising him that there is to be no direct or indirect contact between my husband and my daughter. He is not even allowed to be in the home the she resides in, whether she is there at the time or not. So that much is taken care of.

However, I think that my mom (as many people, I am sure) believes that with God, everything is black/white. There are no exceptions to the rule, there are no grey areas where they can be possibly bent a little bit. What is written, is written. And it applies to everyone, whether they feel they deserve it or not. I just want to know if there is any scripture that can support me in my choice to leave this marriage in my past and start moving on with my life.

 God hates divorce but does not necessarily forbid it. I am not yet thinking of the down-the-road scenario of a possible future marriage (although I am rooting for you) but your husband broke his vows. Right now keeping him away from your daughter is priority number one, which  you have already taken care of.

The Old Testament is quite patriarchal  in that it permits the husband to divorce the wife but not the other way around, as if the men never do anything wrong.

My ex was abusive to me, and I left him.  I am remarried to the man GOD wanted for me and we have two beautiful daughters (and a son on the way) and His many blessings all around us. I beleive God looks at the big picture.

I will get back to you with scriptures,  I know they're out there!  

Hello,

Please separate the 2 issues for awhile .

Yes you need to divorce your current husband to keep your daughter safe.

Then at some point, you may date or explore your options and this may lead to considering marraige but it might not be for a year or more! So rather than arguing with your mom and others just let this part of the future alone for now and concentrate on you and your daughter. That should keep you busy for awhile. I too am divorced and a mom and would consider marraige to the right guy!

Thanks for all the support. I am very glad to hear that I am not making a horrible mistake. And trishcuit, thank you for looking for scriptures. I will check back often for updates.

You are absolutely right, Tabitha. In all the clutter in my mind, I haven't been taking it one step at a time. I am finding it very hard to look at one part of the picture, rather than try to deal with EVERYTHING at once.

Lenara, why is it so important that you have scriptures to support what you do. Is it not enough that you are a child of God and God loves you and will be with you through all your discisions. Bible quotes should not be necessary.

I want to be able to tell my mom that God is with me. As I said, in her eyes, it is very black/white. If I don't do what God intends for me, I will go to hell in her eyes. I feel bad for her, because she also feels that she will burn for the sins of her children. We've had this discussion. I want to have the scriptures so that I can put her at ease, and make it easier for me too.

Hello again.

Ron Deal, a conservative christian, has a website Successful stepfamilies.com and on it under articles you will find one he wrote for Christianity Today.

Ron talks about the reality of divorce and questions to ask when you are dating and whether to consider re-marriage and all that stuff.

It may provide the "Biblical answers" for your mom and give her peace-but again-this discussions can take place over time.

You are not alone-do look for a congregation to be a part of as well.

While I understand that there is a cultural aversion to divorce stemming from the past, in fact the bible has lots of rules about how to divorce.

It was ovbiously something that happened.  Hence all those rules in Deuteronomy 22 about if this happens then divorce, if this happens then stone and divorce ........

In the first line of Isaiah 50 it says "where is your mother's certificate of divorce?"  Obviously that would imply that women get divorced.

Even Joseph, in Matthew chapert 1, was going to divorce Mary quietly.

I am sure though , that your mom love Matthew 5 27 - 32.  This seems to imply that divorce is wrong and a divorced woman who remarried would be committing adultery.

Much great minds than mine hopefully will chime in here ( Stevie, rev john???) but here goes.

Matthew 5:27-32 (New International Version)

and Stevie and Rev John, chime in here!

Well said lastpointe!! Exactly what I was going to argue. Lenara (Welcome by the way) you have Biblical grounds for divorce. I'm not going to rehash what lastpointe said above, but we will be praying for you.

For anybody but your parents, if they say something about divorce, ask them what the Bible says about gossip. I am aware that the Mennonite Church has a very wide variety of characters from Old Order to almost as liberal as the United church.

I have found that Mennonites are better than most at being non-judgemental. My ex-wife was the daughter of a preacher and was born Old Order until her parents moved away. I found that, as a group, they are very understanding.

You owe no explanations except to your parents and, if you wish, your minister. If your parents can't understand that you are acting in the best intersets of your daughter, tell them they are the ones with the problem. I know of no competent minister who would advise you to place your daughter at risk.

There are many kinds of evil in the world, and sometimes one has to choose the lesser of evils and live with it. The safety of your child is more important than your marriage. If you stayed with your husband, Childrens Aid could well take your child away, if he was convicted of possessing child porn.

Hello Lenara and welcome to WonderCafe.ca.

You may have heard that all your life.  You should have been hearing that God's love endures for a thousand generations while the wrath of God only extends to the third or the fourth.  You should also have heard that God's plans for you are for good.  And failing hearing any of that you should have heard that Jesus came to give you life in abundance.

Divorce is a serious matter.  It is often the breaking of a covenant.

All the same it is hardly anything that cannot be forgiven and I expect that God can redeem that which is beyond our ability to redeem if that is what God desires.

Your marital covenant to your husband does not allow you to put the lives or well-being of others at risk.  There is no law in all of scripture that demands adherence above and beyond our love for others.

Your husband's choice and actions put others, namely children, at serious risk.  If your integrity matters more than the well-being of others keep the covenant intact.  But don't for a minute think that God would look kindly on you for doing so.

Scripture records Jesus very clearly suggesting that it would be better for any who seek to harm the children of God to tie a mill-stone around their necks and be thrown into the sea.  Which leads me to believe that abusive behaviour in general is a conversation stopper and abuse of children is never anything that should be tolerated.

I commend you for offering this support.  Sadly, your husband will likely never pose anything but a risk to reoffend.  Children will always be a temptation to him which forces you to take courses of action which demonstrate your love for children by not subjecting them to risk while demonstrating your love for your husband by not putting temptation before him.

Maintaining a marriage with a child present fails both ways.

For the sake of your daughter she needs to be removed from your husband's reach.  For the sake of your husband you need to keep her out of his reach.  Nobody would suggest that you send your daughter away so it must be you and your husband who part company.

That doesn't mean that you stop loving him.

It means that in order to love him you must take drastic action to keep both him and your daughter safe. 

Sorry, I can't.  For what it is worth I can't give you a Bible verse that shows God would want to punish you for something that your husband did.  So if your mom is convinced that this is God's intent is to not forgive you there would be little any of us here could offer that would change her mind.

No.  You are not wrong.  As a matter of fact, I would discern that to be a demonstration of wisdom on your part.  You clearly understand that your daughter continues to be at risk so long as you cannot keep her from being in your husband's presence.  Your obligation to your child is as strong as your obligation to your spouse.

You serve them both well by seeking to keep them apart.

It is not an easy row to hoe.  May God bless you as you sojourn in the valley of death.

Grace and peace to you.

John

Lenara,

My heart goes out to you. Your life is crashing all around you, and yet you show real character at not being overtaken with bitterness.

What a wonderful woman you are, despite everything that's happened, you still show some compassion for your husband, loyalty to your daughter, and a desire to have a good relationship with your parents.

As the mother of a small daughter, your first priority is to protect your child. I sense that you had a great love for your husband. As such, there may be  moments when you hope that, with treatment, your husband will be cured. For the sake of your child, remain strong, and obtain a divorce.

It saddens me that you feel the need to supply Bible verses to justify divorce to your mother. (Perhaps it might help to discuss mother/daughter relationships with your therapist?)

Lenara,

well my dear it seems that lastpointe did my work for me, as well as a few others, in bringing forth scriptures in support of your decision.

* * *

I feel bad for her, because she also feels that she will burn for the sins of her children. 

* * *

If your mother is really bothered by this then she can seek prayer to break generational curse. I am not saying you are cursed but it may put her spirit at ease.

Just wondering Lenara, whether you know if  your mother's pastor also holds these views on divorce?  If you think he might be more understanding, perhaps you could request him to counsel your mother to come to a better understanding of God's love and forgiveness in such a situation.   She may receive this better from him than from you perhaps.

 yes just like husbands. Their wife can share her wisdom till she's blue in the face and he will disount it. But let him hear exactly the same thing from one of the GUYS... and it's God's own truth!

Trishcuit: My mother's pastor has the same view as my mother. I grew up in the Old Colony Mennonite Church, which is probably the most traditional Mennonite church in Canada. He shares the same view on divorce as my mom. However, I do know that my mom believes in forgiveness but I have always been very mindful of my parents' feelings, even when it means that I have to put my own happiness on the back burner at times.

Pilgrims Progress: I am starting to feel the anger setting in, though I try not to let it take over. I know that I am going through a grieving process similar to grieving a death, and this is only one stage in the whole picture. I just need to pray that I have enough strength to not let it pollute everything in my life and do permanent damage.

My husband's First Court Appearance is April 9th. That is the day he goes in front of the judge to enter his pleas to the charges, and the trial dates will be set at that time. I will keep you all posted if you are interested in following this.

I also want to say that I am very touched at the amount of responses that have been posted here. I don't know any of you, and yet I feel a tremendous amount of love pouring out from your posts. Thank you all. God Bless.

Lenara,

Anger's more than understandable. Don't repress it - do what it takes to work through it. I see what you mean by grief, you are grieving for more than the end of your marriage and trust in your husband.

After my husband died, it was like all the pieces of a jigsaw puzzle of my life were thrown into the air, disrupting the picture. Is this how you're feeling? If so, the way to healing is to make a new picture - and make sure it contains a much larger piece for you!

My prayers are with you.

Lenara, you say your mother believes in forgiveness, which I would certainly hope.

the sad thing is that you don't require forgiveness.  You have not done wrong here.

If your mother can't understand the need to leave this abuser and divorce then I think she has really odd values.

As much as you may love her, don't allow her to poison your and your daughters lives.

At some point we all have to stand up and say

"mom, I am sorry you disagree but i am leaving him, saving my daughter from a life time of hell and psychotherapy.  I will divorce this abuser and start a new life with my daughter.  I hope that you will see the wisdom of this and wish to continue as an important part of my life.  but if you can't then that is your choice."

Your mom and her strict church are wrong on this.  Divorce shouldn't be taken lightly,

but as Jesus says  "except for marital unfaithfulness".

and if her pastor believes you should stay married to this man, then get yourself and your daughter as far away form him and his church as you can.  Don't ever expose your little girl to him.

I have decided that I WILL file for divorce, as I have been offered financial assistance with that. I know that this is the right thing for me to do, and the overwhelming support I have received here has helped give me the strength to move forward with my life as I want it to be.

Please, everyone, don't stop posting here. Although I have never met any of you, I feel that I know some people here at WonderCafe quite well. I want to keep this support around me and would love to get to know you all better than just over the course of a couple of posts on a discussion.

I will keep posting updates on the case, as I sense that some of you feel somehow connected to this matter. If anyone out there wants more specifics than what I post here, please don't hesitate to contact me privately and ask. If I am able to give more information at that time, I will do my best to answer any questions anyone may have.

Hi Lenara - no worries about us going away ... in my experience we're a pretty steadfast bunch - sometimes even  moreso than some people might wish! 

Good for you for making a decision - sometimes that is the hardest part - the rest will gradually move into place as you go forward, steady in your own mind about your plan. 

 Yes, Lenara, what you and your daughter went through was NEVER God's plan for marriage.   May He bless  you and keep you!

Lenara,

I am glad to hear you are working through this with the help of a psychologist.

The Bible to me is not a rulebook, but a guide for living. That said, I do know what it is like to feel like one must go chapter and verse with people to get understanding or support, when they see the Bible as a rulebok for every single situation. So, here we go....

I will agree with what Rev John mentioned about children and the millstone(Matthew 18:6). I would also say that Mark 10:14 helps with the role children should have.

Ephesians 6:4 and Colossians 3:21 also speak of how children should be treated and I would say rule out molestation and especially by a parent.

Then there are Bible verses in Leviticus 18 about child molestation by a parent. 1 Romans, could apply to this as much if not more than what some choose to use it as.

Hebrews 13:4 addresses your marital bed being defiled.

Jesus summed up all the law in loving God and loving neighbour as yourself. Thinking the best for others does not find you molesting them, degrading them, objectifying them or taking advantage of them.

As far as divorce, yes, Malachi may say God hates divorce because, for me, God wishes better for us, not because divorce is always wrong. 

The Bible begins in Dueteronomy 24 speaking about divorce.  Those who oppose divorce can easily say that God made allowances for hard hearts in people. Yet, Jesus is said to have spoken about the only reason for divorce was unfaithfulness. One cannot get much more unfaithful than with children and your own children. Matthew 5:32 and Matthew 19:19 make the divorce exception unfaithfulness. Matthew 19:19 says remarriage is not adultery and is allowed after unfaithfulness.

So, even one who wishes to clobber you with Bible verses may have trouble.

Peace,

StevieG

That was awesome, StevieG. I will look these up and read them together with my mom. Thank you very much.

In the Qur'an is says that if there are serious troubles that the couple should seperate for four months, and the, if things have been resolved, move on.  If not, then divorce is acceptable. 

It says that no one is allowed to stop the woman (or man) from remarrying.  And that two should not stay together if the result is a non-loving environment, especially if there are children.

I just wish that had some application to your situation ><

As-Salaamu Alaikum

-Omni

 I must say that although I am a Christian, the Koran does seem quite practical in many aspects.

 I believe however, that the four month stretch to which Omni is referring, kind and gentle people, is to be spent in serious soul searching, prayer and seeking good counsel. Not retail therapy or holidays.  

¹⁸Dear children, let us not love with words or tongue but with actions and in truth. ¹⁹This then is how we know that we belong to the truth, and how we set our hearts at rest in his presence ²⁰whenever our hearts condemn us. For God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything.

 ²¹Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God ²²and receive from him anything we ask, because we obey his commands and do what pleases him. ²³And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us. ²⁴Those who obey his commands live in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us.

John3:20

Don't let your heart or anybody else condemn you-you have shown great love and courage for your daughter.

Mrs. Anteater (also divorced, but for less serious reasons than in your case)

mrs.anteater:

Your post brought tears to my eyes. The message of love you posted here is nothing short of amazing. In a time when anger prevails in a lot of people around me, and I am fighting anger myself at times, this is something is needed to keep things in perspective. Thank you.

You are welcome.

((((((((((((((((Lenara)))))))))))))))))))))

God is with you and God will give you the strength and courage to get through this. You're a very brave person and definitely doing the right thing in the eyes of God as well as in the eyes of all of us here on the WC. Perhaps you could print out some of the responses  received here to show to your mother? Or you can copy/paste and send it to your own email and print it from there.

I found a verse  from 1  Cor. chapter 7 but it may not apply. I'm not sure.

Verse  15:

But if the unbelieving depart , let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases: but God hath called us to peace.

We can certainly say that if your husband believed very strongly in God he would not be hurting one of God's most precious innocents and flesh of his own flesh. If he is a believer it seems  rather twisted  but he suffers from a mental aberration of some kind.

I don't mean to be upsetting but I would caution you to exercise care when choosing a lawyer in regards to visitation rights. I'm thinking of old stories from the media. I can't remember the details or even if it may have been U.S.  TV media. It has happened that even men who sexually  abused their children were entitled to have visits alone with them. The mothers were devastated but had no choice re court orders. Probably the father's lawyer came on the scene in court saying the father was no longer a danger etc. I don't know and I don't know how often it happened or if there was a  prior case trying to prove the father was innocent of the charges. Sorry to add more complexity but its best you be prepared for whatever may arise in the future.

I don't know much about your beliefs  or if you have tried to show your mother that many bible verses are not to be taken literally e.g. as in Leviticus which applied to the Jews, the temple etc. 5000 years ago.

Love and prayers for you.  Try to take care of yourself.

Hi Lenara,

I don't know what "spiritual support" is, but I assume you want advice on how to reconcile what you want to do with how you feel. You have a conflict that you need to resolve between you and your mother? No. Your mother has a conflict within herself, namely she doesn't approve of what you want to do. Her method of resolution, rather than dealing with it on her own--through, say, prayer-- is to transform her internal conflict into YOUR internal conflict.

You probably can't provide your mother with the answers she needs. Her disapproval merely prolongs the turmoil you're already undergoing. She needs to find how how to deal with your resolution. The sooner you act upon your resolve, the sooner her brain can start dealing with it.

Ergo, you're absolutely right. I am starting to see that I have been living more for other people's enjoyment than my own. I have been a pleaser of others, rather than taking care of myself. And I have decided that I need to change that.

I had a conversation with my mom where she told me that I will always be her daughter, no matter how grave my sins may be. She said that she will never turn me away, regardless what I have done. So I know that although she may not be happy with my choices, she will continue to love me and hopefully eventually come around to see that I am a better person because of the choices I have made, as well as my daughter.

That being said, I want to let you all know that today was my husband's First Appearance in court. I don't have an update yet, but I will be posting here as soon as I have anything for those of you who are interested.

Lastpoint is correct in her/his perception of the scripture, it's your husband who should be granting you a "divorce certificate". He commited the sins of adultery, sins of lust, how on earth could your mother feel your wrong. Ouch it's sh*t like this; that makes me not read the bible. The bible is so misogynistic "and god created man", well he also created woman. And as different from man you may be, he still did it, and loves you as much as me. Divorce him and don't even tell the old bag. THE BIBLE WAS WRITTEN BY MAN. It's a code of conduct that's all. Religion is the stupidest sh*t, almost all wars are religious in nature, and my god would not kill for his namesake, my god respects everyone, he is not vengeful, my god did not write rules, just common decency. Old people are brainwashed you are not going to change her thinking, please just get out of it. You have every right to be happy, God wills it! 

Oh ya welcome to Wondercafe, it's nice here.

Hi Lenara,

It saddens me to read what you have said about your mom.

that she will continue to love you no matter how grave your sins.

That is a terrible thing for her to say.  Sadly I can see that she is not being very supportive or understanding.

Lenara, no matter what your mother and her very odd congregation think and say you are not the problem here.

You married a man who broke your trust and that of his daughter.  There can be no great crime than sexual assault of a child.

That your mother can't see that is very sad for her.

I  hope that over time she will come to understand that you and your daughter are the wronged parties here and that she is not being supportive.  But you can only work to keep your daughter safe and healthy and perhaps one of those things you need to consider is what kind of influence is your mother and her poisonous tongue on your daughter?

I woudl be hesitant to allow your daughter to spend any unsupervised time with her. 

Actually, I have left my daughter alone with my mom, and she does not do ANYTHING without my permission. She does not want my daughter to be taken away from me by the authorities. When she was at my mom's house for a week when my depression hit, she even called me to ask if it was okay for my daughter to spend a couple of hours with my sister. She wouldn't do anything without asking first. I completely trust my mom to take care of her needs.

I have spoken to my mom recently about the prospect of leaving my husband, and she is giving me full support in separating from him, she just doesn't feel that it is right to break the marriage covenant by filing for divorce. Once you're married, you're always married. However, those Bible verses that I gave her about leaving the spouse for unfaithfulness only speak of separation in my mom's eyes, not divorce.

I have decided that I need to stop living for other people and start living for me. I can't always live my life looking over my shoulder, wondering what everyone else will think of my choices. I know that I will never please everyone, and that the most important person to please is myself. I know that I am a good person with a good heart and help others when they are in need. But Iwill no longer put other's needs before my own at all costs. The price is too high. After all, if I can't take care of my own needs, then obviously I can't take care of my daughter's needs either. That would make me an unfit mother. So I am going to live for myself from here on out, and I know that in taking the best care of myself that I can, I will also be taking good care of my daughter, and that's the most important of all because she's innocent in all of this.

Way to Go! Lenara. Keep your head up.

Well it is funny that she doesn't see the word "divorce" in Matthew 5:32.  does she just skip over the word.

As to your mom, i was referring to her attitudes when I said don't leave your daughter with her.

Do you want the attitude of "mommy should still be married to daddy" to be shown to your daughter.

Do you want her to grow up thinking " i shouldn't have told mommy because grandma says mommy and daddy should be married"

and on and on

Lenara,

You may get support from reading the works of Jocelyn Anderson, she is an American woman from a fundamentalist evangelical background and has written several articles and books on the subject.

I don't know if she will respond personally to your questions but there is a contact address at her website  http://jocelynandersen.com/

For a little more background you may find this article helpful...

Biblical Battered Wife Syndrome: Christian Women and Domestic Violence

Just in case people are wondering:

My husband (I don't like calling him that anymore, so let's just say "Bob") has been to court a couple of times now for his first appearance, but his lawyer is dragging things out. I will post as soon as there is an update to post.

Also, "Bob" is finally figuring out, after many heated discussions, that I am very serious about getting a divorce. He is now finally accepting the fact that his stuff is being moved out of my apartment. Yay! I get my own space again!

Now comes the interesting part... finding out who I am. I have spent so many years identifying myself alongside him, that I didn't remember who I was. Now begins the journey of self-discovery...

Good luck on that journey Lenara. May GOD bless and keep you.

P.s. I hope you have a good lawyer. You said he's "dragging it out". There's a tactic called "starving the wife". Basically it's where the money maker in the family delays, delays, delays, in order to get the financially strapped spouse to make concessions they would otherwise never make simply out of economic desperation. Please don't let that happen to you.