do we still need to bump? I've forgotten

I have never seen this image before, and trust me I have seen a lot of these before, so naturally I found this article very interesting. Had no idea an icon like that was ever made. Thanks for posting that Witch.

This is a good topic by the way, sadly I find that I have nothing further to say about it.

no time to look at it today, but I will post this just so I can be told of developments on the thread for later.

Oh snap, take that homophobes!

As-salaamu alaikum

-Omni

Last evening I attended my first gay wedding.  An open invitation was issued to the congregation where these two individuals have worshipped and worked for several years, and one of them is the nephew of a friend of mine. It was a beautiful ceremony.   Apparently they had both been married in the past, and each had a daughter (young adult, teen) who took part.  A mother, and an aunt, lit candles. 

Thank you for sharing the religious roots for this celebration of love. 

As these two people took their vows and declared their vows and declared their love for each other,  it occured to me that so many hetrosexual couples today are choosing to live common-law.  

Thank you for sharing. I hope people open their eyes.

I remember reading Boswell's book awhile back and had the following thoughts:

At that time in the Roman Empire, women were basically breeding stock.  Love between men was considered  a higher, more divine and nobler emotion than with women.  There wasn't the concept we call "homosexuality" in quite the same way as we in the modern world understand it though.  I expect that when brotherly love surpassed that of simple friendship, marriage would seem very natural. 

It wouldn't have been the same for women though, since it was believed they were naturally corrupt and unable to understand anything beyond carnal lust.

Opposition to same-sex marriage is not necessarily based on homophobia.  I continue to be opposed to same-sex marriage while pretty much indifferent to homosexuality.  This is the case with most people who oppose same-sex marriage.  Linking this opposition to homophobia and a denial of human rights is a (sometime successful) political strategy aimed at polarizing the discussion, but is not a true reflection of the range of opinion.

I have to agree that homophobia is not the only reason.

I must say that the objections I have heard, and I have heard many more than a few, are based on homophobia or heterosexism. It can be based on someone else's or a system or a society's homophobia.

I have an open mind and await to hear a reason not based on homophobia or based in heterosexism

Yawn ......

Need some new topics

Many people hold marriage to be a celebration of the difference between male and female which is at the core of the human species.  Thus marriage is a sacred institution between one female and one male.  The argument for same-sex marriage sees it differently, more as an abstract relationship which does not imply male/female.  Some people also think that it should not be restricted to only two people.

Neither point of view is based only on the sexual preference of the people involved. While there are some people who are opposed to same-sex marriage because of their view of homosexuality, this is not the opinion of most, I think.  

Btw, I am not really interested in debating this.  My experience in a few religious communities, including the UCC, has shown me that people will simply shout at me and call me names.  I have expressed my opinion above and folks can either take it or leave it.  If you choose to respond with a holier-than-thou "WELL, I will LEAVE IT" post to try to shame me, don't bother.  It doesn't work anymore.  Been there.  Been shouted down, screamed at, emotionally blackmailed in public, etc.  I will wear your invective like a badge of honour.

If, on the other hand, you are looking for honest intellectual exchange, feel free to message me privately.  However, if I sense that you are looking for a major beef, I won't respond. 

DonnyGuitar:

One thing I have come to admire about you is that you seem to be able to deal honestly with your own prejudices. Who among us does not have any prejudices? Certainly not me.

I recognize that there are people who diusagree with me on what a marriage is. That's OK. Well maybe not OK.... I do have a lot of difficulty understanding people who only wish that marriage was between one man and one woman, but that difficulty is my problem. I can deal with people who disagree though, and especially when they disagree in the manner you display; respectful of others and their beliefs, and non-judgementally.

The problem I have is not with people who don't want same-sex marriage in their church. After all, you may have heard the adage, "if you don't like same-sex marriage, don't have one".

My problem is with those bigots who actively seek to deny other people their rights, based solely on the bigots choice of what to believe about God. To not like homosexual marriage is one thing. To attempt to ledislate that people may not have it, because you think God says they can't, is wrong.

It was wrong when it was about slavery. It was wrong when it was about allowing women to vote. It was wrong when it was about forcing all kids in school to pray to one version of God, no matter who they preayed to, or not, at home.

I don't get the sense that you are trying to do this.

At the very least, you have earned my respect on other issues and in the treament you give other people. That respect demands that I hear you out, and give you the benefit of the doubt, whether I agree with you or not.

No major beef for me please. I'm a pescatarian.

Sorry, I couldn't resist.

Donny Guitar,

Many people hold marriage to be just that. One's concept of marriage is coloured by our past, our religion, our culture, our experience with marriage, our parent's marriage... and it means different things to different people. You may find one couple who believes marriage is about celebrating differences and another that it is about finding a commonality. Some will say it is about romance and others companionship and others about dreams coming true of homes or children.... For myself, marriage is the relationship where we best learn  love, compassion, understanding, self-control, discipline, loyalty, commitment...

The ideas we carry of gender and sex and marriage are often shaped around our experience. It does not make one a hater. It makes them human, exposed to human constructs. I felt marriage was between a man and a woman, simply because it is what I saw, knew and what was accepted.

Though we disagree in an area we can and do agree in many others.  It looks as though we might agree that, whatever people might believe, we should be respectful. I have watched many a supposedly "tolerant" person be as obnoxious as any other.

Peace...

Well said. I believe it's the above-all.

I don't have any prejudice toward homosexuals. As I said, I am indifferent the sexual practises of others.

I would prefer not to have same-sex marriage in my church.  We do, but I would prefer not.  I do not think that marriage is a human right and thus I do not seek to deny anyone human rights.  You can call me a bigot if you wish.

I am not trying to do this because these things are not connected to same-sex marriage.

peace

DonnyGuitar: I have been curious for a long time how many people I know can be tolerant of homosexuals simply being gay, while still wishing to deny them the right to marry; I think in your perception of marriage as a celebration of the differences between men and women, and those differences being overcome so that they come together, provides me with that explanation.

Personally, I disagree; I feel institutions, even ones held sacred such as monarchy in the past (and still today in some societies), the church, marriage, etc., must change with perceptions and times, and because I think even 'traditional' marriage between a man and woman today has changed from a financial arrangement and necessary state for respectable procreation, and has become about the loving, monogamous relationship between two people wishing to be faithful to one another.

But I do thank you for putting forth the first non-homophobic argument I have ever seen from the 'other side' of this debate. If as you say, most of you have the same attitude, I would have hoped to hear more thoughts in this vein along the way rather than invective about 'Adam and Steve'.

Marriage isn't exactly a universal human right in the first place.  Many countries don't allow marriage when one side is incapable of consenting.

But this isn't about consent - this is about denying happiness to others because their marriage doesn't fit your pre-determined criteria.  Sorry, but that's bullshit, and it needs to be opposed.  You may not consider yourself a bigot, but few bigots do.

In Canada, this debate is all but a moot point by now.  I can't see any government - even the Conservatives - taking it out of the Civil Marriage Act.  Canadian opponents of same-sex marriage can pound sand.

To the south, it's still a hot-button topic, but same sex marriage rights will slowly spread.  I'm proud that Canada is historically ahead of the U.S. on these ethical issues, and remains there.