Any organization that charges for dispensing spiritual wisdom does not have my repsect, no matter what they teach—or sell.

I met a scientologist once.  From what I gathered, aside from some of it's more crazy teaching involving aliens, it's not really a bad thing.

They do have churches.  It claims to be a religion although most countries and religious authorities classify it as a cult.  I don't think it's a protected religion under the canadian constatution.

I personally believe it's a really big scam.  The guy who invented it even said himself "The best way to make money would be to start a religion".

Some people classify it more as a "Multi-national pyramid scheme with only one  religious part". 

From wiki: "

Scientology maintains strict control over the use of its symbols, icons, and names. It claims copyright and trademark over its "Scientology cross", and its lawyers have threatened lawsuits against individuals and organizations who have published the image in books and on Web sites. Because of this, it is very difficult for individual groups to attempt to publicly practice Scientology on their own, independent of the official Church of Scientology. Scientology has filed suit against a number of individuals who have attempted to set up their own "auditing" practices, using copyright and trademark law to shut these groups down.

One The Church of Scientology and its many related organizations have amassed considerable real estate holdings worldwide, likely in the hundreds of millions of dollars. Scientology encourages existing members to "sell" Scientology to others by paying a commission to those who recruit new members. Scientology franchises, or missions, must pay the Church of Scientology roughly 10% of their gross income. On that basis, it is likened to a pyramid selling scheme. Charges for auditing and other Church-related courses run to tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars.^"

 You really should read the wiki page for Scientology...it's very informative.

As-Salaamu Alaikum

-Omni

Any organization that charges for dispensing spiritual wisdom does not have my repsect, no matter what they teach—or sell. - Arminius are you saying that they pay to belong?

Omni, I thought pyramid and ponzy schemes were against the law. How do they get away with it?

It's a VERY good question how they get away with it.  They have done so many illegal things it's not funny.  They have tried to frame critics, have them accused of terrorism, they ahve conducted the biggest infiltration of the US government files every, when 5000 undercover Scientologists tried to erase files with negative reprocussions towards scientology.  They charge people for spiritual knowledge.  They openly threaten people.

They are not a religion, they are the mob.

As-Salaamu Alaikum

-Omni

Hi crazyheart:

Yes, one has to pay to belong. The higher up the initiation hierarchy one goes, the more one pays. It is not that they sell degrees; one does get the teachings and initiations along with the degree, but one has to pay dearly, as high as hundreds of thousands of dollars for the highest degree of initiation (For stuff that you get here on wondercafe for free, courtesy of Arminius  ) That's why people like Tom Cruise and John Travolta belong to the Church of Scientology.

 My friend calls it "Cruise Control". 

You know, I remember learning in one of my Social Psychology courses that the more someone has to do/ give up to be a part of something, the more attached to it they become.  It's cognitative disonance at work I guess.  In order to justify what you did as rational, you have to believe it was totally worth it. 

Thus, I'm not surprised Scientology attracts loyal followers when it charges so much for advancement.  If one gives up thousands, or hundreds of thousands, of dollars to learn about something, you have to explain it to yourself by arguing it's a totally awesome religion.

Of course, most (all probably) religions ask you to give things up, so maybe my glass house should keep me from rock throwing on that point.

I think it is an interesting thing that so many actors are involved.

Perhaps as highly paid people they feel that something of value( themselves) is worth paying for? and so is this

Perhaps they are more likely as personality types, needing so much adulation, to benefit from the idea that you can pay to be "saved".  they pay for so much in their lives in many ways.  They pay agents, friends, keepers, family, publicists......  Maybe it seems natural to them?

Yes and no. Legally, the founder, L. Ron Hubbard wanted it to be a religion so that the earnings would be tax free. In the US it is considered a religion. Many governments refuse to recognize it as a religion though. I know that the practice is banned in Germany.

John Travolta joined before he was famous. He gives Scientology credit for his success as an actor. Tom Cruise didn't join until he was famous but I don't know much about why he joined.

They believe that each person has three parts, the body, mind and thetan. The thetan is basically your soul. Auditing is supposed to enhance one's thetan, which is supposed to have positive effects on the body and mind. Also, L. Ron Hubbard was a science fiction writer and they believe that his books are historical. For instance, they believe that 75 million years ago, an evil galactic overlord named Xenu was solving a galaxy-wide population crisis by abducting aliens from various planets and sending them to Earth to be dumped in the active volcanoes of Hawaii. The souls of those aliens were then captured and implanted into the bodies of primitive humans. These souls were brainwashed so that they would forget about who they were and believe that they were humans. So now they have a personal vandetta with Xenu.

I'm not sure if they do. If they do it's not like the Judeo-Christian god. I think they consider Xenu to be a god but they hate him.

They don't believe that medicine is necessary in order to get better. They completely rely on auditing for healing the sick.

No experience but I've seen the Southpark episode and I've done some research into it. There's plenty of youtube videos about scientology. There's also a hacker group called Anonymous that is trying to shut them down.

I think they believe in reincarnation because of what they believe about thetans. I am pretty sure they at least believe in the reincarnation of L. Ron Hubbard.

Yes. They are places where you can get audited. They also use their churches for attracting new followers. I would recommend not using the e-readers though because from what I've heard from anti-scientologists, they put people into a semi-permanent hypnotic state that makes them more susceptible to giving money to the church and to believing the outrageous mythology. The more you do it, the worse you become and the more crap you are willing to believe and the more money you are willing to donate. Because of this, it's very hard to escape from Scientology but it has happened before.

Thank you for the time you took in responding. Just one question, kr, what do you mean by "auditing"?

Hi crazyheart:

The founder of Scientology, Ron Hubbard, was once a member of the neo-Gnostic esoteric society "Ordo Templi Orientis" He split from the O.T.O., took some of their secret teachings and initiations, added some of his personal beliefs, and founded the "Church of Scientology."

The O.T.O. is not a cult, and could be classified as a religion. I have a copy of their "Celestial Gnostic Catholic Canon Mass," which is just traditional Gnostic stuff, with which I partially agree.

The methods Hubbard uses to attract and keep members, and extort worship, loyalty, and money from them, are typical of a cult.

at one point, we had a scientologist posting her on wondercafe, but he grew tired of all the attacks on him.  i was pretty ticked off myself... it was one of the few times i've been ready to haul off and flame witch and a few others.

Rabbit's done a good job of conveying the saner side of Scientology.

Scientology may be a "religion" but it is a seriously screwed up one. L. Ron Hubbard was a headcase science fictionalist — and scientology began as his attempt to produce an American-style "cargo cult": a culture-shock response to the overpowering scientism and popular fear of stuff like nuclear annihilation of the '40s, '50s and '60s… an attempt to deal with emotional-spiritual panic by making up a "control" panel for credulous followers and some pseudo-technological toys to back it up. In many civilised countries, Scientology is banned because of the damage it's done to people.

I think it's legal in North America because it makes money, and pretty much anything that makes money is regarded as deep, positive stuff in these parts.

Auditing is the process Scientologists use to make their thetans better. The aparatus is called an E-reader. It is supposed to tell you the status of your thetan and provide therapy to train it. There are two handles on the E-reader that the person being audited holds onto. They transmit electromagnetic waves through the person. The practice of auditing is also called dianetics. L. Ron Hubbard wrote a book about it.

The first time somebody is audited it is free, the Scientologist giving the session is assessing the person's thetan and will tell them what's going on and what to do about it. They always have bad news, usually that the person is suffering from severe depression. The cure is to come in regularly for auditing and in exchange to provide the organization a "modest" donation. Several hundred dollars I think. After enough auditing, the person's thetan will reach a whole new level and at this point they tell you more and more about the cult and ask for more money than before. The Xenu story I just told is only supposed to be told to those at Operating Thetan Level III, which is a middle-range position in the cult but it can take a long time to get there.

I should also add that L. Ron Hubbard wrote a book about how to brainwash people before he started Scientology so it is very reasonable to believe that auditing is one of the things he uses to brainwash people. It explains how they can reasonably believe the absurd things they are told.

CH

Larry King was discussing scientology last night on CNN. I was busy and only picked up bits of the conversation. You prob. saw it too. They believe in reincarnation and that we may live 1000's of lives although they use a different term of reference to describe it. I don't believe there is talk of heaven or hell per se. The individual's consciousness would create their own conceiveably. One may be buried or cremated. L Ron Hubbard chose cremation. 

Scientology  received high praise last night as being one of the best methods employed in helping people break free of drug addiction.

I don't know if I still have L Ron Hubbard's book titled "Dianetics" . I know I read it a few times and found it totally fascinating but quite difficult to understand. Among the movie or rock  stars (Madonna) a false version of  the Kabbalah has also become very popular. A few years back visits to gurus in India  were all the rage. And so it goes.....

Prices in scientology are totally outrageous . I believe a tithe of  10% of one's salary has been quoted but this isn't true or may be a start. I think a 10% tithe also exists in Christianity as the ideal ( taken from the Old T....not sure). Any spiritual  institution that is organized or owns buildings receives monetary support from its members. New Age isn't organized but the community pays tremendous fees to attend seminars, buy books written by the most current authors as well as cds.

What kind of sect did you say they were?

Oh! Rep sect!

o my has anyone watched this Vid? Tom is a nut

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFBZ_uAbxS0

It would seem that most of the comments made are based on feeling, conjecture, rumour etc...  I've been working with Scientology for the past 20 years and I am a Christian too. 

• Scientology is a religion.  It deals with the spiritual nature of man and not so much with the body.
• In Scn - if someone needs medical attention then they are provided medical attention.  There is an aversion to drugs since there has been empirical evidence that the drugs make it difficult to recall moments from the past.  Scn's are VERY ANTI PSYCHIATRY.  Rightly so... Psychiatry, discoverers of such great and helpful therapy as labotomy, teukotomy, ECT, Ritalin, Prozac, etc... drugs that have enslaved us. 
• In Scn - if a person recalls a past life then who can deny it.  If someone does not, fine.
• In 20 years I've never heard of Xenu - sounds pretty far fetched and I'm going to go out on a limb and tell you that it's fiction made up by someone, not a Scn.
• Germany - forbids Scn.  But  - hey, any group of people that are dedicated to enslaving people (Nazi's, Psychiatrists) would be.  I would not put too much credence into this.  Germans may make great engineers but you don't want them in charge of your freedom.
• By and large Scn is a good thing. 
• Belief in God - totally up to the individual.  The Supreme Being has always been part of Scn.

I believe that as Christians we must seek the truth, love our fellow man, help others, and be part of a community.  Any organization that seeks to help should be helped.  We also know that there are no perfect people, systems or religions.  We cannot condemn without knowledge.

I hope this helps

Depression is a very serious and dangerous illness.  Many people have committed suicide because of it.  I suffer from severe clinical depression and I thank God for paxil.  All the talk and bull shit in the world does not help.

When Tom Cruise pontificated against anti-depressants he showed clearly that he did not have a clue in hell as to what he was taking about.  This so called religion is dangerous to the human race.   Any unqualified group or individual that tries to prevent or suggest that one suffering from a serious ailment should not go to the doctor, is in my extimation committing a crime.  Should the ailing individual die because of that the organization or individual responsible shoulod be duly charged with murder.

Do I sound angry?  You bet.  When good old TC made his uterly stupied and ignorant statement I lost all desire to see him in anything; movie or otherwise.  How many have suffered needlessly because of this ignorance?

One thing is for sure,  good old Hubbard sure knew how to rake in the dough.  He indeed is or was a smart man and a lot of folks swallowed it hook line and sinker.

Shalom

Mate

Jesus is Truth

John 14:6

Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

If you want to help , bring them to Jesus, he is perfect

blackbelt

I would agree with that quote but I suspect that my interpretation is different from many but is also supported by many.

The whole point in my post was that the scn attitude is ignorant and dangerous.  It should not be listened to when it comes to medical science.

Shalom

Mate

He is perfect.

He's my dad, He's my friend and He's my GPS!

Be Blessed,

IB

jmcdonald001,

In 20 years, all I can gather is that you must not have progressed very far or the very opposite and you have. It is high level stuff and believers are sworn to secrecy. I too have never heard a scientologist speak of Xenu/Xemu or the Xenu/Xemu story (the "creation story", if you will). It does not mean it does not exist. Many who were not Mormon knew nothing of backroom Mormon secret ceremonies until ex-Mormons revealed them.

StevieG

Hi jmcdonald:

I, as a Canadian of German origin,  take exception to your generalizations about Germans.

Hitler was a crazed mystic who used cult methods to achieve his ends. We all know where blind trust in a cult leader and his cult got them. Maybe Germany had good reason to ban Scientology.

Arminius,

I apologize for not reading all of jmacdonld001's post. I had begun skimming and stopped at the Xenu comments. 

--------------------------------

jmacdonald,

You target Germany  and use the excuse because of your belief in "enslaved thinking" in psychiatry. Although Germany had many in the field, they were not alone. As far as enslaving any people, many nations have that as a part of their history. Antisemitism was found world wide during the early part of the last century.

You are specifically and deliberately (or unintentionally) stereotyping an entire people. Your wording and tone did not appear that it was unintentional. You target because you have anti-German sentiment, (alongside anti-psychiatry and anti-slaving thoughts or you would have chosen many nations). It may be based on Germany's stand on scientology. It could also be based on anything or nothing at all. It does not matter to me your reasons. It is discriminatory and stereotyping. It may even be Germanophobia.

Some may find it intellectually respectable, I find it repugnant.

It's a cult. L. Ron Hubbard even wrote a book about starting cults. The organization is set up in the traditional fashion of cults. It's essentially a pyramid scheme.

The Zenu story is for OT III people. If you were to advance to OT III though, you would be in such a strong hypnotic state (from the dianetics) that you would be gullible enough to believe the story.

That's a very foolish statement to make. The greater German community is regretful of the Nazi regime and the population of Neo-Nazis is so low that it could never find its way to power. I don't agree with psychiatry either, but your accusation that all psychiatrists are trying to enslave us, and are comparable to the Nazis is a wild accusation. You may want to take a break from the E-Meter dude.

Yes. That's why it turned its very creator into a crazed lunatic.

Back in the mid seventies (yes, during the stone age), while working on my master's degree, I was confronted by a guy who couldn't have been any older than 18 on Yonge Street in Toronto.  He invited me for a free personality analsis.  I went along, giving him an assumed name and address so they wouldn't keep calling me.  I did their 'test', and had this same guy give me the results.  He told me I scored high on "Happiness" (90% according to their test) but only 10% on getting along with people.  I told him that not getting along with people was what made me happy, and why should I change?  He tried every trick in the book to get me to sign on the dotted line.  After about twenty minutes, I was getting bored so I got up to leave.  He asked me if the walls were closing in on me.  I told him the walls were stable, but if HE thought the walls were closing in, he should get his eyes checked.  I suggested he do himself a favour and return to finish high school, then take some real courses if he wanted to help people.  As I left, he yelled, "You will come back, won't you?"

Hello jmcdonald001 and welcome to WonderCafe.

That is a possibility.  Feelings are not always wrong.  Conjecture is not always inaccurate and rumour is not always pure invention.  Which means that there should be some caution taken with all of that.

Scientology does claim to be a religion and as such suddenly falls into the category of religion.  I'm not so sure why you think that there needs to be a separation of the spiritual and the fleshly unless you are using either term in a way that is not a common definition.

At a glance what you suggest about scientology is that it is gnostic in scope.  Can you speak more to how scientology, as a religious system, treats the spirit and the body?

That is an allegation that I have not heard and I would like to explore it further.

Is there a specific segment of the past that scientology does not want obstructed?  Is it short-term memory, long-term memory or something less precise like race memory?

Can you explain why access to the past is so valuable to scientology.

I have heard this argument before and find it to be a very difficult one to fathom.  Certainly the off-handed manner in which you present it suggests that you are dealing with perception rather than reality or something, at the very least which is verifiable.

Some psychiatric therapies have proven to be of limited value and since most deal with brain chemical balances there seems to be a lot of trial and error required to get proper drug therapies.  Compared to what a mind that is unbalanced chemically can produce there are times when not using such medications is irresponsible and potentially harmful to the individuals and random members of society.

Does scientology have alternative treatments that have proven to provide better results than a drug regime and have those treatments been made available for peer review?

Indeed.  Who can deny it.  Again, if this is being discovered has the research been subjected to a peer review?  Under which conditions are memories of past lives uncovered and why are these past lives so important to scientolgy as a system?

That is also a possibility.  The question would be why?  How does the fiction (your words) of Xenu detract from what scientology believes or practices?  In your 20 years of experience with scientology how much time have you spent examining or exploring those individuals who claim to have been former members of scientology and share their experiences?

This is a very weak argument and frankly an embarrasing one as well.  It is a character attack against Germany as a whole and does not seek to share why Germany has forbid scientology or why they were right or wrong to do so.

It completely undermines any credibility that you claim for yourself.

Do you wish to discuss the ban of scientology in Germany or is there nothing worth discussing on that front?

What criteria are you using to determine that assessment?

How do scientologists define this Supreme Being?  Does this Supreme Being have a name?  How do scientologists interact or relate with this Supreme Being?

I would agree with you about this on most points.  I would also be mindful that many groups have always claimed to be society minded.  The Klu Klux Klan often speak of themselves as being a positive influence against the dark forces of the world.  Would you as a Christian seek to help them knowing that they are not perfect?

Actually, it hasn't been of any help to me whatsoever.  I would not claim to be more informed about scientology for having read it than I was before I read it.  Several of your points are, to be blunt, completely useless as proof or information and there is a clear bias on your side which you do not use to build the case for scientology so much as attack its detractors.

As far as open-minded debate goes your post doesn't reflect an open-mind nor does it do much to convince me that mine should be more open.

If you are really concerned that scientology does not get a bad rap perhaps you could talk with some of the contacts you have made in the last 20 years and find somebody who is able to articulate the case for scientology in such a way as to invite question and discussion instead of attempting to shut it down.

Grace and peace to you.

John

Crazyheart,

You asked some questions... 

Is it a religion? The world is divided. It is recognized in many places around the world as a bona fide, tax exempt religion. In the US and here in Canada, scientology is considered a religion. In some places it is not. In Israel, they never claimed being a church and they pay taxes.

Why do so many stars seem to gravitate to it? Scientology is spread by word of mouth, friends... they use volunteer ministry. Like Southpaw, many have signed on for a "personality test". There are scientologists all over the place, but famous ones get noticed. Karen Black, who dabbled in Scientology, said that it was about getting a  happy life (Any religion might be said to offer that) All you have to do is grab a gossip mag or watch ET and you know Hollywood is not all glamour and happpy, happy, joy, joy... It si competitive, petty and fleeting... So, as careers peak and sink, those on top want to make friends and hang on and those not there want to get there so they make friends.... Hollywood is all about networking and scientology is all about networking.

What do they believe? That is about as simple as gluing jello to a wall or explaining what UCCers believe. Try:

http://www.religioustolerance.org/scientol1.htm

Do they believe in God? They can. They say it is compatible with almost every other religion. They say belief in God is personal and there is no Scientology dogma on God.

What is the drug connection? It can be many things... drugs are not natural... complications... mind altering... physical and emotional side effects... clarity issues... you can't get audited within 24 hours of even an aspirin. Psychiatric drugs are a no-no based on their belief that you have to deal with the problems not mask them, avoid them or use medication to solve them (I disagree, but you asked their beliefs not mine)

Does anybody in WonderCafe have some experience with Scientology? I have an acquaintence who keeps trying to recruit me. Then again, I also know a SG Buddhist who does the same and an Anglican... and... well.....

Do they believe in heaven or an afterlife? They believe you are a spirit, not a body. The body is a shell. There is a new body and a new life.

Do they have churches? They have centres and communities, organizations and missions.

Was that dianetics or diuretics?  LOL

Shalom

Mate

too funny LMAO