*chuckle*

I think why SG was writing to you in the way they were writing when you "CAME OUT" (in style) was to show you that they pretty much believe what you do...and some others piped in as well...the only difference between you and them is really just what you call your belief :3

So now you're "free" eh?

How do I nourish my longing for meaning (Spiritual longing)?

I READ!

I CAVORT!

I LAUGH!

I foolishly try to create my own religion!

I try to read and grok points of view that I do not hold and perhaps try them on for size!

I spend time with my bio family!

I go for walks in nature!

I even try to make sense some times!

I Temple of Worship surf!

EDIT:  however, I do think it great that it seems that you no longer need organized religion to tell you how to process your experiences and etc etc etc etc etc.

I find nature walks to be spiritually nourishing - especially if the trail takes me to the ocean. I also find sitting at the end of a quiet dock to be amazingly spiritual. Have you ever tried walking a labyrinth - something about the process of walking one is powerful to me.

I hope that helps!

maybe you aren't quite so atheistic as you thought.

I think there is a deep spiritual thirst in us.  We get it satisfied in different ways

Perhaps it gets back to you trying to "solve" your questions with facts when facts are required for belief.  Just belief is required.

in the same way that you believe that you love your children without a fact to prove it.

It just is the way it is.

I am sorry you find lack of faith not nourishing.  It doens't surprise me but I am sorry it isn't what you want/need

Atheism doesn't carry anything useful or meaningful with it.  It's a trivial personal characteristic, given a name only because of the cultural prevalence of theism.  It is barren.

If your theism gave you something that you now lack as an atheist, then what was that thing, specifically - and what aspect of your theism provided it for you?

Myth: being atheist means you aren't spiritual

Fact: atheists can, and many do, feel a deep connection to existence that they express through spiritual practices like meditation, communing with nature, and, believe it or not, going to and participating in church. My UU fellowship was founded by secular humanists and still counts many of them as well as other atheist philosophies in its ranks. Buddhism is a good choice, since it is non-theistic at heart (buddhas and boddhisatvas are enlightened beings, not deities in the traditional sense). And, of course, there are atheists active in the UCCan. Even some pagans I know are more worshippers of nature than of deities per se.

IOW, atheism need not be spiritually boring. There are plenty of spiritual paths and practices that do not require belief in supernatural deities and I know many atheists who are as much spiritual seekers as religious folks.

Mendalla

Just throw away the labels and concentrate on "paying it forward". It's never boring. Guarantees satisfaction and nurtures our planet and those who inhabit it.

Being atheist and having deep spiritual thirst are not at all mutually exclusive!  Being atheist simply means not believing in a particular notion about reality, not so much about not being a certain way as a human.  All humans have longing, but we all choose different ways to address them, as you said yourself.

No, not at all.  I can't make myself believe - nor do I want to.  There is no way to solve something that can't be proven or known.  So, why spend any more time there?

I don't believe that I love my children.  I LOVE my children.  It is a fact.  I actively love them every day of my life and their lives.  There is no belief involved in that.  If they were invisible, then yes, it would be a matter of something else... belief, maybe.  If they were a story that someone told me to believe, then yes, it would be a belief.  But they are real and my love and devotion to them is real.  

What makes you draw that comparison?

which part?

Hmmm, I was being facetious.  I didn't expect atheism to be nourishing in any way at all. It can't be, it is a lack of something.  Although, it is very freeing at the same time!  It is a lack of chains and shackles!  But no, no...  What I meant more is that clearly, the human longing for something deeper is within me, regardless of whether I believe in a notion about a god.  

I'll have to disagree with your last comment.  I think it has a huge cultural significance and has in fact been incredibly fruitful in our society and culture!  

But I know what you mean - its meaning is entirely contextual.  If there was not a society built on theism, atheism would be meaningless.  At the same time, it is a very powerful conceptual framework for a culture once - a while ago now - totally submersed in the opposite view point.  I'm kind of seeing it now, the whole Western Judeo-Christian framework, as one giant intellectual/psycho-emotional feudal system!  But, I digress.

Well, it didn't.  The past ten years were just constant attempts to regain something lost, something that can't be regained anyway.  It's like childhood innocence: once you stop believing in Santa Clause, can you believe it again, just out of sheer will power?  Well, that's sort of what I was trying to do, in simplistic terms (very simplistic terms - I was not trying to be a literalist or a fundamentalist).

Love it.  Yes.  Totally.  Alas, I am an intellectual type. A thinker.  Labels/articulating ideas/asking questions/analyzing experiences are fun!

See, atheism isn't a conceptual framework for anything.  Some ways of thinking that often lead to atheism can be, though.  Anyway, on to the meat of our exchange:

Okay, I get what you mean now.  As an atheist since around age 6, I havn't gone through this exactly, so I depend on such explanations.  Based on your explanation - even if we could make ourselves believe in Santa again, it wouldn't quite feel the same as it did back in the day, would it?

Keep the "throw away the labels" part in context, Agnieszka!  Waterfall isn't saying you should do away with them entirely, just that they should take a back seat to exercising compassion.  IMO, he's right on the money.

I think you're talking semantics here.  Atheism, things associated with atheism, results of atheism - it's all one and the same to me here.  Our society and culture would be very, very different without it.  Not all of it is good.  A lot of it is very, very good.  

If you consider that this society (Western) once based all of its thinking in a religious and faith based intellectual framework, which is what we had for a long, long, long time, then a non-religious or faith based

intellectual framework is definitely an intellectual framework!  

No, I got that.  No one is putting labels ahead of exercising compassion.  All I'm saying is that the labels don't bother me, in fact I enjoy thinking in those terms.  Cheers

Oh, not believing in anything is spiritually enriching. But I agree, atheism, like any kind of "ism", is boring.

Seriously, Agnieszka, I think you are on the right track. Deep meditation, just experiencing, and creatively contemplating what one experiences can be enriching and satisfying.

Have a good trip!

Oh Agnieszka, There is so much out there to enrich and nourish your spirit without believing in god! There is so much for you to discover! Listen to the Earth and the wind and the water, look closely at flowers, read about other non-god spiritual paths like you have suggested, Buddhism, Zen, paganism, Shinto, Native spirituality, quantum physics! I am a spiritual atheist, that's what I tell people. Do you like poetry and psychology? I find spirit there. I like to learn and dabble. I still hold on to some of my pagan leanings. Did you watch my pagan drawings video?

Just because you are an atheist doesn't mean the search stops. The search is the thing! Every day you add more threads to your tapestry of existence. Enjoy your senses, listen to others, enjoy not having any bonds or rules to follow! It's up to you! It's your spirituality, and it can be free and fullfilling!

Some songs for you Agnieszka

I just love these two men... can ya tell? lol!

Maybe I am, but I'm not convinced of that - as long as we both define atheism the same way.  I understand it as a mind's lack of theistic beliefs.  That can have many causes, and be associated with many different accessory beliefs.  For example, children in Soviet Russia would have been conditioned to be atheistic while being indoctrinated into Soviet statism.  Such an atheist would likely have a much different mentality from an atheist who once found theism convincing, and then didn't.

By "the things often associated with atheism" I mean rationality, respect for scientific reasoning, an aversion to many aspects of religion, etc.  These aren't a result of atheism, and atheism holds no monopoly on them.

Are you suggesting that an atheist can't have a religious and/or faith-based intellectual framework?

Atheists are boring because they generally lack the curiosity to ask the question, "If I'm wrong after all, how would I ever discover that?"   And so, like chsnsen, they don't read books that challenge and enrich their perspective.   They are also boring because they lack a meaningful way of grounding morality and ethics in anything beyond instinct and culturally arbitrary mores that have evolved to promote group survival. I'll wager you haven't read books by Christians that bypass doctrinal questions to the nature of satisfying contemplative life and spirituality.  Two such recent books are Barbara Brown Taylor's "Altar in the World" (a New York Times bestseller) and Brian McLaren's "Naked Spirituality."   Your posts repeatedly reveal that you have created a false caricature of Christianity to avoid the hard work of an honest and open spiritual quest.  I know that you don't want to discuss that with me and I suspect you won't investigate wither book.  But some honest seekers might and that's why I crafted this post.  .   

Your bigotry is noted.

Notice how the thread is about Agnieszka finds the experience of being an atheist to be boring, whereas your post focuses on how you find atheists, personally, to be boring?  Your post does not address the topic of the thread.  It's a good excuse to denounce groups you look down on, though, by making bigoted generalizations.

And how is this different from a certain percentage, perhaps a majority, of Christians? I've seen atheists who were questioners and theists of various stripes who were not. This is the kind of sweeping generalization that I expect from the Internet, but not from someone as supposedly erudite as you, Berserk.

Berserk, that's what you've just done to atheists. Created a false caricature. I'll avoid speculation on your motives and wish you had done the same for atheists. I've met many atheists who have done "the hard work of an honest and open spiritual quest" and found a way that meets their needs without need for belief in a supernatural deity. I've found Christians who avoid "the hard work of an honest and open spiritual quest" by taking refuge in doctrine.

Everything you say here about atheists can be applied to theists of various stripes to, IOW. Think about that a bit.

Mendalla

Thanks for sharing these, Elanorgold!  And your drawing are beautiful...  I have explored the myths of the North as well...  And there is much beauty there.  Thank you!  A musician whose work has moved me deeply is Jennifer Berezan.  Her CD, Praises for the World, is just incredible.  It consists of the song, Praises for the World, and then several people read poetry and sing over the melody and chant.  I don't think I can post all the links to it here but please look up the series on youtube.  Here is one link:

Yes, totally.  Bottom line is, the world is a physical, material entity without a ruler or guide or whatever term you want to choose, forming the planet, creating the planet, creating life, creating humanity, guiding humanity, expecting things from humanity, making sacrifices from humanity.

Sure.  But, at the same time, atheism allows freedom to question/explore/challenge notions in a why that does not exist within many a religious belief system.

Well, that would be pretty confusing, wouldn't it? If we are talking a theistic faith-based intellectual framework...  Can a person function just fine within such a paradoxical set up where they themselves don't believe in the existence of a theistic god, yet nonetheless, their thinking about life/ meaning /morality /ethics is based in a worldview in which God exists and runs the show...  But why do that?

Hi Berserk,

I did not personalize the question to apply to people directly.  I did not say that atheists are boring.  Anyone can be boring.  Personally, I find preachers boring most of the time.  Nothing to do with their beliefs, necessarily, but primarily with the attitude that I need to believe what they believe, too.  I feel the same way about vacuum sales people.

Whoa!  You know me and chansen and all the other atheists quite well, don't you!

But, if you want to deal in stereotypes, let me ask you this: how many devout evangelical Christians do you know - I mean this, please tell me - that have read Chris Hitchins or Dawkins, just to enrich their perspective?

I would really suggest being a bit more careful with your generalizations.  It doesn't server anyone well.

Seriously?  Beserk?  Wow, I'm shocked at your arrogance.

Your idea of an honest seeker is of one who comes to your belief.  Now that is a prime example of intellectual dishonesty if I've ever seen one.

Agreed except for the bolded text.  What the bolded text describes is naturalism.  Naturalism is one of those things that most often accompanies atheism, but not always.  I know a number of atheists who nonetheless believe in supernatural stuff about the world.  My best and most long-time friend is one, in fact.  There is no contradiction there.  An atheist can believe anything at all and still be an atheist, with the sole exception of belief in deities.

Disbelief in deities does not automatically allow that freedom.  See my example of the atheistic Soviet-indoctrinated child above.

Only in certain cases, depending on the details.

That is not what you had said above.  You said it without adding the word "theistic".  That changes your meaning.

IMO, that wouldn't be a stable setup, no.  But take out the bits that depend on there being a 'god who exists and runs the show', and suddenly there's no conflict.  Or rather, not one that is due to atheism per se.

Agnieszka,

you might enjoy Martin Gardner's The Whys of a Philosophical Scrivener.

Beserk, on further thought, I am really curious about this

What is the "false caricature of Christianity" that I have created? 

Okay.  So the supernatural stuff is not physical or material?  Then what is it?  See, I think it's just something we haven't figured out yet.  But if it can be seen, or perceived by a physical sense - or at least a sense based in a physical entity such as a human, can it really be unnatural?  Or outside of the natural?  That's a whole different debate. 

I think you're splitting hairs, really.  Clearly, any oppressive belief will eliminate freedom.  Atheism in itself won't free a person from oppression on any other kind.  I was not argueing against that.

That is not what you had said above.  You said it without adding the word "theistic".  That changes your meaning. [/quote]

Well, seeing as the word "atheist" has the word "theist" in it...

In order for atheism to exist, theism had to precede it. So, the bits about there being a god who exists and runs the show is sort of part of the whole idea.  

I *think* you are trying to get at non-theistic religions and to say that non-theistic religions are not in conflict with atheism...?  I've not doubt about that.  Buddhism is a prime example.   

if you are finding the lack of a faith or a life with the spirit boring, then perhaps you need to open yourself up to the possibility that faith exists, is real and just live with an open mind to accept it.

i dont' think it unusual for people to question their faith and the validity of it. 

but you are the one saying that a lack of faith isnt' filling your needs so maybe in reality you are someone who has faith, it is just bruised right now.

I don't think it's you he's referring to, there. I think it's Azdgari (and chansen, who he mentions although chansen hasn't really said much in this thread).

Mendalla

chansen may wish He were this hot

That's a fit and trim Ricky Gervais, of The Office and Idiot Abroad fame :3

I'm curious as to where I've done this.  It's entirely possible I did, but I hope I havn't.  And I certainly havn't done so in this thread.

Sorry, been kinda busy.  I see Berserk is busy shooting himself in the foot, so I'll not try to stop him.  Please, carry on without me for now.

I  just stopped in to say "Hi, Nishie", Now carry on.

Hey, I never said I was a supernaturalist!  I take the same view of it that you do.  But that's unrelated to the fact that one can be both a supernaturalist and an atheist.  For that matter, it's possible to be both a naturalist and a theist.

I wasn't talking about oppression of other kinds (though those could certainly be present as well).

I was just pointing out that you were not, initially, talking about a theistic framework.  You had omitted the word.

So you deny the possibility of someone being a life-long atheist?  Had I never been convinced as a young child that a god was real, and came to pretty much my present state without having believed in one - you wouldn't term me an atheist?  Because theism never preceded my atheism?

They can nonetheless be separated out.

Indeed.  And some atheistic Buddhists believe in supernatural reincarnation, which may or may not be part of some Karma system.  Such people, with such beliefs, break your generalizations regarding non-religious atheist thinking.

Um... You think THAT's Hot??? ..... (whispers - Get your eyes checked) LOL

​*Peace - Love - Respect* Unconditionally

Wolfie

I think humanism is a good fit for many atheists. Since atheism is pretty much defined by what the person doesn't believe in, humanism adds the elements of philosophical and spiritual self examination and externalisation that seems to satisfy many people.

Agreed. I think he's speaking more broadly rather than responding to this thread. As others including the OP have noted, he doesn't even address the topic.

Mendalla

Apparently, humanism is now an officially recognised, religious organisation. Does anyone know anything about that?

Not offhand, but I know some of the local humanist association (they are UUs) and I know they actually had a humanist chaplain for doing rites of passage at one time. The man I knew who had the role was a former UU chaplain who had done my son's naming service while in his UU role. He passed away years ago and I'm not sure if they have someone in that role anymore. The Humanist Association of Canada would be the place to check for Canada and there is a related association stateside. I do think it was stateside, but I'm not sure.

Mendalla

Thanks, Mendalla.

The UU probably comes close to being a humanist  organization with a spiritual bent, wherein everyone is free to pursue their own spiritual or philosophical direction, but all are united by the common goal of humanism.

I understand that there is a UU sub-group who call themselves the "Followers of Jesus." This is the one I would join.

Some UC congregation are coming close to UU ideals. I know some UCers who were formerly UU, and wouldn't mind going back.

I was a member of the UK Humanists forum for a while. I think it was an association of sorts. Anyway, as soon as I started talking about crop circles they were all over me, and I ended up leaving. Apparently I was too spiritual for them. They taunted me about angels and fairies and aliens. I'm sure every group has people like that so I'm not writting them off completely.

I find Inanna's picture amusing. It took me a bit to figure it out though, why his head was bleeding... then Aha! The crucified atheist, quite bold.

 Agnieszka, So glad you enjoyed. : ) Thank you for the link. That was a nice song. I noticed Kate Bush's Sensual World came up in the sidebar, that's another song that really filled me with joy when I first heard it. So life affirming and joyful, connecting we people to the world. Praises indeed! Checking out further clips by Jennifer...

Humour is VERY sexy to me :3

And I don't like muscly guys, until I first saw this guy

AND he's into Dungeons & Dragons, so what's not to love? :3

--the FFF!

How the h... did we go from discussing spiritual things to posting buff topless dudes??

*hands Agnieszka the script*  See, we're on page 23.  And good that you almost totally kept yourself from writing "hell", as now that you are an ATHEIST  , you don't believe in it.  Go on, this is your cue.

EDIT:  Here's an aid for you in your new-found freedom from organized religion.  Perhaps you can learn some Way of Liberation as well that gives results, like yoga or meditation.  Good luck, atheistic traveller.

Actually, I was going to write, "how the hubris"...

In any case, I'm not seeing how being an ATHEIST should prevent me from saying words like "hell" or "Jesus" or "Holy Mother of God".  I don't think it's belief in those things that makes them useful swears.  It's their effect on others that counts.  

Bottom line, about this thread, well... IT IS FINISHED.

That gave me an image of you eating some shredded wheat and then being pounced by a "horde" of hippies :3

I think what you encountered there is another example of every group, every BS, has its blasphemies or pornography, just like every group has what it finds sacred.

There wasn't much in my last post that lends itself to getting a response, but there was a bit...

Belief is not needed for faith - belief tends to make us affirm certain statements as truth rather than attempts to put into words an understanding of basic faith.  So belief is evolutionary, changing, not written in stone.  But we do need some words or concepts as a carrier for our faith, and that is the work of all - some writers help and others don't. It is a journey of discovery.

Scientific atheistic materialism need not be nor is a logical outcome of the scientific method or naturalism. We  trace the history of scientific ideas from Greek naturalism, to Plato’s theistic naturalism.  The middle ages rejected this view in favor of ex nihilo.  This was to protect the idea of supernaturalism and miracles.  So part of the reason for the distortion of science is Christian theology. This is when it depends on Supernaturalism and  a doctrine of Creation out of Nothing.

In a attempt to affirm a naturalistic understanding of the world it was proposed that God is the God of the gaps.  To hold that view as our knowledge increased, God was moved to prime mover, or original cause but not now active.  To be able to speak of miracles and other such religious ideas, creation out of nothing was suggested to show how God did operate and is now using natural experience to be efficacious.  This is a form of deism that most scientists affirmed until our time, and is still a way some still affirm their connection connection to faith. 

 Islam helped keep alive  Greek thought.  However, later in the thirtieth century it was the Christians who gave a remarkable freedom to universities.  At the same time, there was a new emerging idea of magical naturalism, this is where nature has influence  on its own becoming.  This was a rediscovery of Aristotle's final cause where nature had its own goal.

To reject this turn, both theology and science moved to  a more mechanistic understanding.  The importance of  supernaturalism and ex nihilo was highlighted.  This was to deal the issue of the soul and God’s influence in the world.  The scientific mechanism became a deism and then materialism.  All of this ended in splitting science and religion and leaving the door open to scientific atheistic materialism.

The problem with scientific materialism is it leaves important questions out of the discussion, or cannot adequately answer them.  There is the issue of freedom.  Deterministic naturalism leaves no room in nature for freedom or self awareness.  It doe not answer how self awareness or consciousness has arisen.  In reaction some suggest the role of nurture.  However, even nurture is touched by such deterministic thinking.  This is because of our tendency to reductionism as an explanation of why things are what they are.   Another problem is self awareness that cannot be explained by sensationalist doctrine of perception which is where we can only perceive physical things.  This has lead to a mechanistic view of nature.

 Naturalism does not have to be materialistic and atheistic. Another philosophical history to recreate a scientific world view based thinkers like James, Piece and Whitehead.   Religious experience is real using this new understanding of scientific naturalism.

the solution which of course is James, Bergson, Hartshorne, and Whitehead.  Whitehead  achievement is to offer a naturalism that involves “prehensive-panexperientialist-panentheistic version” .  This means rather than a sensationalist doctrine of perception we now have a view where sense perception is secondary, derivative from a non-sensory perception called “prehension”.
James has pointed out that we feel or perceive things that are deeper than sense perception.  This allows for the reality of religious or moral experience as part of what makes things as they are.  

Whitehead developed this further.  He showed we have a direct perception of the world beyond our minds as causally efficacious.   This can include such things as memory, our sense of a past.  It gives “scientists with an explanation for four of their basic concepts: the actual world, causation, the past, and time.” It also explains how we apprehend mathematical and logical forms. 

Panexperientialism helps solve the mind-body relationship in a non dualistic way.  If all matter has some experience and there are different degrees of it as we go up the hierarchy of life, than the mind, as consciously experiencing, could interact with the brain, as experiencing bits of matter.  This would help a central problem in neo-Darwinism of the appearance of consciousness.  Further, this view helps affirm human freedom as a reality.  The power of self determinism is real in a naturalistic sense.
 

(Sotto Voce) Here is where I nail him! Ha!

I READ!

Well, yeah,

I CAVORT!

I hope that's Cavort '96 ... Oh. OK

I LAUGH!

You just say "Ha!" three times, real fast. Also you snigger.

I foolishly try to create my own religion!

Well yeah. Check on that one.

I try to read and grok points of view that I do not hold and perhaps try them on for size!

Check again. Hmm.

I spend time with my bio family!

Hmm. OK. Me too. (again)

I go for walks in nature!

Yep

I even try to make sense some times!

(Sigh) Yep.

There's too much agreement going on. here!!!.

I Temple of Worship surf!

I sometimes surff bored.

EDIT:  however, I do think it great that it seems that you no longer need organized religion to tell you how to process your experiences and etc etc etc etc etc.

I liked the way he tackled what he saw was a problem. Met it right on 'e did,