I don't even know what to say about this so I am leaving it up to others.

My answer can be found here: http://wondercafe.ca/discussion/religion-and-faith/losing-faith-benifits?page=1

It all depends how you define being Christian.

Do you believe that there is a God and that Jesus was his son?  Then you are probably Christian.  Anything else is just fluff.

However, my guess is that that poster is propaganda from some evangelical church who sees the Catholic Church as either the beast or the harlot (or both).

It's easy to hate something that you dehumanize and put on a lower level.  

• "They're not humans, they're ​Communists!"
• "They're not humans, they're homeless!"
• ​​"They're not humans, they're ​homosexuals!"

The list goes on. If you dehumanize something, it's easy to hate.  The militaries of the world do this frequently.  You wouldn't want you men to have consciences telling them what they are doing is wrong now would you?  That's bad for business.  Just as the generals on Christmas eve 1914.

As-salaamu alaikum

-Omni

It's seems that there's nothing some Christians hate more, than another Christian, who believes only slightly differently.

THe Catholic Church is Christian.  SO is the Baptist churhc and the UCCan and the Presbyterians and the Quakers and...........

MC,

I would say that you comment on the other thread is very close to violating the terms of conduct. 

Only a complete fool could honestly think that the Catholic Churhc, the world's largest denomination last I knew, is not a Christian Church.  A church with which one disagrees on matters of polity and doctrine yes, but the same can be said about our Full Gospel friends or our brothers and sisters who proclaim the prosperity (name it and claim it) gospel or in some circles the UCCan or multiple others.  But all are still Christian denominations

I grew up in a church very much like MorningCalm's. I was taught from a very young age that the Caholic Church was the "Great whore of Babylon", that it was an instrument of Satan, part of his plan to destroy Christianity. I was taught that the Pope actually worshipped Satan (along with the Freemasons, of course) and that nuns were bred in secret so that their babies could be sacrificed to Satan in the Vatican.

So I'm not surprised that MC has fallen for the lines. Hate is much easier than love when you want to be right.

ya there Christian, i got the inside scoop once from HS ,  now there are some in the Vatican who i would beg to differ , but if your referring to the body of believers , most definitely they are Christian 

@ Witch

where you been? 

I've not been taught those things at my church Witch. I have heard that the Roman Catholic church is not a Christian church as it teaches that more than faith in Christ is needed for salvation.

Yeah that's right out of a Jack Chick tract.

Roman Catholics would be very surprised to hear they believe that.

But then telling a person what they believe makes it easier to hate them than actually asking them what they believe.

The Roman Catholic Church is most definitely a Christian church - as Christian as the United Church of Canada, the United Church of Christ and the Fellowship of Evangelical Baptist Churches. All part of the wonderful diversity of the Body of Christ. "If the whole body were an eye, where would the sense of smell be?"

When I was growing up in Winnipeg, I discovered that an organization called "The Protestant League" often met in our church and had their meetings announced in our services.  As I reached my teens, I asked a leader what these meetings were all about.  I was informed that they discussed topics like pregnancies and baby killlings in Catholic convents.  That reply was a coming of age moment for me.  I sson realized that our church contained many anti-Catholic bigots. 

Recently, our chruch conducted a 10-week Alpha program with the local Catholic church.  In content, Alpha is rather evangelical and charismatic Protestant in orientation.  I  was delighted that our local priest was eager to do the course.  But I was appalled when many evangelical pastors in our ministerial association refused to copperate, obviously on the grounds that they are anti-Catholic.  Since we did this joint-Alpha program, our members have become close firends with many of the Catholics and they even support some of our other Methodists programs (e. g. our potluck dinner/ spiritual movie nights).

MC, would you please spell out in detail exactly why you don't consider Catholics to be truly Christian?  Ground your critique biblically, if you wish.

It's the Roman Catholic church which I don't consider to be Christian. I believe that there may be individuals within that institution who are genuine followers of Christ. As for the church itself, it is because they teach that more than belief in Christ is needed for eternal salvation. They also believe that their sacraments are required... baptism, confirmation, eucharist, penance and reconciliation, anointing of the sick, holy orders, and marriage. As said on wikipedia (emphasis mine), "Though not every individual has to receive every sacrament, the Church affirms that, for believers as a whole, the sacraments are necessary for salvation, as the modes of grace divinely instituted by Christ Himself." (source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacraments_of_the_Catholic_Church#Holy_Orders )

if we are saved by correct belief, Jesus died in vein 

So your church believes in Baptism by immersion, testimony and being saved and your church is Christian, So what is the difference?

as a roman catholic i find the fact that i am not a christian very surprising indeed.  there are many things that i do not agree with in the catholic church, but i can assure you, we believe in jesus.  we believe in the trinity.  we believe in mary and her immaculate conception.  we believe in angels. in saints.

i'm actually surprised that your not a catholic morning calm.  many of the things i disagree with pertaining to the catholic church are right up your alley.  women not being ordained or "fit" to preach for one. 

more than faith in christ?  like what?

*sighs a big sigh and wonders what the hell she just got herself into*

The Roman Catholic church teaches that their sacraments are required for salvation. We do not hold that baptism and testimony are so required. That is a big difference imho crazyheart. You're right on one thing though -- we do believe that being saved is required to be saved.

As I've said momsfruitcake, it's the Roman Catholic church that I don't believe to be Christian. I am not speaking of individual people within that institution.

Please see my post two above your own.

So there you go. I don't believe in being saved so in your mind I am not a Christian. ( Like MomsFruitcake

*sighs a big sigh and wonders what the hell she just got herself into*

the sacraments are affirmations.  never was i taught that they were necessary for salvation.  baptism was a choice my parents made for me.  communion was a right of passage.  we were taught to understand the importance of the eucharist and what it symbolizes.  confirmation was to reaffirm our commitment to christ, since our first affirmation was made by our parents.  marriage is a holy union.  the priest that married us was actually married and had children.  his wife (soul mate) passed and chose to devote his life to the church.  he had some beautiful stories to share on our special day.  reconciliation or confession is to reflect on our wrong doings.  last rites are not always performed.  my grandfather died from a heart attack.  he went peacefully in his sleep.  this was not performed.  was i approached by my church and told that he was not in heaven?  absolutely not.  holy orders.  well that one is self explanatory.  these are symbols/milestones in the catholic church.  not prerequisites. 

is the catholic church somewhat "orthodox"?  yes.  do i agree with it? no.  you on the other hand morning calm probably have more in common with catholics than i do.

why don't you try attending a catholic church instead of reading wikipedia?  that's like me studying astronomy by reading my daily horoscope.

as for the whole baptism thing.  at one time it was believed necessary for entry into heaven.  not just by catholics, but all christians.  an infants first visit was to a church to be baptised.  the book tess of the durbervilles is coming to mind here.  to the best of my knowledge there are many denominations that still believe this, the catholic church is no longer one of them.  progression does occur once in a while.  now if only they would check off the 999,999 other things i have on my list ;)

What??? I can't learn Astronomy from reading the Newspaper Daily Horoscope???

*Sighs*

Digs out Telescope and Star Charts and gets to work...

Wolfie

*lol* 

nope.  sadly not.  and you can't win the lottery by playing those gosh darn lucky numbers either.  i prefer fortune cookies for spiritual guidance these days.  they provide nourishment not only for the soul, but for the belly too.

So true about the fortune Cookies.... (Sending a extra large bag your way).

I opened one, one day and the paper was blank. I was so joyful... As I write my own Fortune. (That which is within my power to control).

Wolfie

This is a very important, and I believe, truthful and faithful, statement.

Either we are all saved by the grace of Jesus' death, or none of us are.

Either God loves us all equally, or God doesn't.  And if God doesn't, Jesus would have never been crucified. 

As-salaamu alaikum

-Omni

Morning Calm I was so surprised to learn that  the Roman Catholic church is not Christian, I started wondering about other denominations.  Please tell me which of the following are Christian or not, so that I will not be deceived:

UCC

Presbyterian

Eastern Orthodox

Pentecostal

All Baptist churches

The particular Baptist church to which you belong

Roman Catholic

Jehovah's Witnesses

Please add any others that I may have missed.  

And what about non-denominational churches, and churches that are springing up in coffee shops and other gathering places across the country with no affiliation with any denomination.

I always thought the earliest creed was "Christ is Lord".   And that the early Christian church adopted belief in the Trinity as identifying a Christian.

I'd say yes they are Christian. We can disagree with this tenet or that teaching without declaring the whole denomination to be lost.

Witch ...... how sadly true......

How we love to pick at each other and climb atop each other and distance ourselves from each other.......

I sincerely hope that "being a Christian" does not mean having to be "more right" than someone else.    Now there is a topic for a thread .... "where the rubber meets the road ... what does it mean to BE a Christian"

Thank you Witch for saying so eloquently something I find so sad and painful.

Hugs

Rita

Yes they are , of course,

It is just part of the whole  "not like me"  issue that floats around.

We arent' all the same. 

But it is pretty common for protestants to dislike some of the catholic practices.  The prayers to saints, the creation of saints, the pray to the pope......  but at it's basic they are a faith that believe that Christ is the divine son of god  who died for us and rose again and that makes them Christian in my book.

in all fairness to MorningCalm

what i think he is saying and correct me if I'm wrong, MC is saying that he believes the people , the parishioners are Christian but when it comes to the institution  of the Vatican , the higher arch, the power holders  , though they profess that they are,  he believes they are not Christian.

He seems to separate the body of believers form the power of the institution (Pope, Cardinals, Bishops etc ) ,,, if this is what MC is suggesting I would agree with him, even some cardinals and bishops are keeping an eye on Peters seat  (Malachi Prophecies ) and we know from history , some Popes were not Christian, one great example , the Borgias. It is one thing to say I am a Christian and I  knowingly do  bad things or I am a Christian and although sometimes I fail to do Good I strive to Follow Jesus, it is a position of the heart, which I believe some Popes of History did not have a good hurtfully position in Christ, the last so called Black Pope is yet to be seen.

I am also aware that some teach that the RC is or will be the whore of Babylon, no one knows for sure it is a future event, but I do believe that according to the RC's direction ( ecumenical movement, one sign of many )    it is a real possibility.   

There are also some RC Priests who believe that satan has already entered  the Vatican , you can research it if you like. 

I understand what you are saying Blackbelt, but in this case Morning Calm stated clearly and concisely that he doesn't believe the Roman Catholic church is Christian.  He said it when discussing the canon of the Bible, and since their canon recognizes a few more books than the one used by his church he stated that he doesn't believe their canon has any relevance because the Roman Catholic church isn't Christian.  

Well I suppose we could argue that only individuals are or are not Christian, on church can be considered Christian.  But if we use that reasoning, if would mean that my church, and yours, and Morning Calm's are not Christian.   Apply it to one / apply it to all.

A very convenient distinction which allows you to condemn Catholics without appearing to condemn Catholics.

Once again you have gotten your information from people who know more about hating Catholics, than they do about Catholcs.

A very convenient distinction. Kind of like anti-gay people use the "love the sinner hate the sin" slogan as a convenient excuse to hate people.

I must admit, all denominations have very unchristian Christians attending but I think there is a difference between a simple Christian who is lets say, very carnal in himself and  a very knowledgeable Bishop or cardinal or Pope  who outright knowingly  Goes against his faith for status of power while deceiving the masses in his robes . 

I believe the Pharisees were of such and allot of times i see the Vatican in the same light, but the wonderful thing is all the Catholics I know , my whole family included I was raised RC, see it also. 

In fairness to MorningCalm, the Roman Catholic Church in Paragraph 1257 of its Catechism does teach that "Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament."

I think, though, that the Catechism as a whole makes clear that faith in Christ is the essential element of salvation; baptism is necessary in the RC view only because it is a sign of the faith - one is baptized because one has faith; if one does not have faith one will not be baptized; or, in the case of children, children confirm their baptism later (ie, Confirmation.) The point is that baptism does not "save" - it (or the confirmation of it) is the sign of effectual and "saving" faith. That's how I would describe the RC view, which I do not believe puts it outside the Christian community.

i can get what morning calm and blackbelt are saying *gasp*  but saying that a non christian church has christian followers makes no sense.  as with all denominations there are parts that you/we/i don't agree with. 

humans can be such silly creatures.  always creating division.  i can find i have something in common with every religion.  the golden rule for one.  it's a common thread between myself and witch and morning calm and even chansen.  we all deserve to be treated with respect and owe it to each other to treat each other in the same regard.  regardless of differences.  as i said in the scripture thread, we all know joy, pain, sorrow, love.  i don't need scripture to instill common sense.

i don't agree with having a pope.  i don't agree with having a vatican.  whore of babylon.  well, i can even agree with that.  i don't agree with all the wordly possesions it has attained.  i think christianity in general has some pretty big attrocities to its name.  but i don't think this is unique only to the catholic church.  to the best of my knowledge the catholic church predates many churches.  tomato tomatoe, potato potatoe.

If the hate is clearly seen through action and deed, then yes I would agree with you but if non is present except love and concern, then hate is not appropriate .

in the case of the power brokers in the Vatican, I do not believe its hate but discernment, I do believe Jesus discerned the Pharisees quite well.   

Matthew 12:34 You brood of snakes! How could evil men like you speak what is good and right? For whatever is in your heart determines what you say.

would you say that is hate speech from Jesus? or discerning  the hearts of the religious 

that is because the church is not the institution per say, in this case we are speaking of the RC denomination, the church is in essence a breathing, living spiritual body , eg: the body of believers in Jesus which of course we know the RC is full of them.    

I agree with all of this except for the RC church predating many churches, that is there claim. The church was born on Pentecost , its wasn't called catholic or Christian, it just was.  

i can agree with you black belt, but i don't think this is exclusive to only one denomination.  i have never looked to the pope for spiritual guidance.  there are many catholics who do.  i wish this would change.  i know of priests and bishops who disagree with the vatican's stance on modern issues.  they don't practice what they preach.  i am currently in a huge battle with my church and the priest there.  i was married in this church and two of my children were baptised in this church (not by the current priest).  the current priest is refusing to baptise my third because we don't attend enough.  with a business and three young kids, church is not easy for us.  my husband works on weekends.  it's hypocrisy at its finest.  here is a man who is married to an institution.  no poopy diapers, no sleepless nights. no trying to hush three kids and prevent pages being torn from bibles for him on sunday morning.  no idea whatsoever what reality is like for most folks.  he has received a piece of my mind.  my husband's mind.  my mother's mind.  my grandmother's mind.  i have no qualms that it's all about that little envelope more than it is he would love my crazy kids to be in attendance on sunday.  being roman catholic is a tradition for me.  and traditions are hard to break.  but i'm getting there.  what would jesus do.  in my opinion, he would baptise my child.  no questions asked.

needless to say, i am currently looking for a new parish.

all that aside though, the catholic church, in my opinion, is christian.

i said predates many.  not all.  therefore, it's old.

I agree with you that it is not exclusive to the RC and i have heard many stories like yours, thats why its so important  to have the witness of the Holy Spirit of who we are, because His Objective witness overcomes all claims of men, including the pope. That is why I have no problems in worshipping in a catholic church also because I know who I am and who I worship. 

Also  as many as there are bad priests in the Rc there are also so many good ones , one such priest spoke and gave mass at my brothers funeral this past February, because i study the gospels and my family doesn't, i was all ears to hear what this roman catholic persist had to say , and I was so stunned at his truthfulness of the gospels he was amazing. 

my personal opinion is, if in the latter days the RC is the whore of Babylon and through its false changes, that God is big enough to save his people and that the parishioners will discern  it. 

I so agree

a) They are, most definitely, Christian unless you use the kind of narrow definition of "Christian" that MC and others are noted for around here. If a tradition places Jesus Christ at its centre, and they most certainly do (e.g. those wonderful crucifixes with the body of Christ hanging on them), it is Christian.

b) Does it matter? In a pluralistic world where some measure of wisdom and truth is reflected in all traditions, it shouldn't matter whether Catholics are "Christian" or not. They still have a place in the bigger picture.

Mendalla

old it is , I believe Christianity was birth into  the RC during the reign of Emperor  Constantine the great  in 313 AD, 

This topic is simply the corollary of the discussion a few years ago...I guess we still haven't learned...cms

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19692094/ns/world_news-europe/t/pope-other-denominations-not-true-churches/

ha yes, a new world order, a one world religion , total domination, control of our spiritual lives and control of our earthly lives. 

Hi crazyheart,

I believe that the poster stated that it was his opinion.  How authoritative for you is this poster's opinion?

I don't know about many.  I do know that there are others of the same opinion.

Grace and peace to you.

John