It seems to me that we are not the only ones who have the Holy Spirit. I could be wrong, but I think the Islamic version of the Holy Spirit is al-Ruh, and the Jewish version is Ruah. I'm sure there are other versions in other religions.

I think it would be up to the Spirit to decide, rather than the perogitive of those who subscribe to a certain doctrinal tradition.  In other words, the Spirit blows where she will.  It is not our place to restrict the Spirit's activity or inspiration to those of our own faith stance.

 Thats what I tried to day, red.

Thats what learned in all the United Churches I attended as a child or adult.  

A few years ago I took a world religions course, and discovered an analogy that I like. Religons are like languages. Languages are different,  but all  are used  for the same reason (at least by most) which is to communicate and relate with others.  

Religions /' belief systems are different ways of commucating/relating  with the divine, or the truth. Like language, religion is a commuications and relational system

To say others do not have the truth or the divine is an insult not to others, but to God or the truth, because it says that God or the truth is limited and  can not reach others with different languages. 

I believe the Holy Spirit is given by God, not by people, so I don't think "hoarding" is an option (even if someone wanted to try).

The Old Testament certainly says that the Spirit of God (or the Spirit of YHWH) "came on" various individuals (e.g. Saul, David), but this seems to have been the exception, not the rule.

I'm sure you know of the coming of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost (Acts 2), which Peter explains as the fulfillment of Joel 2:28-32 - that God would "pour out" God's Spirit on all people. From then on the New Testament seems to assume that everyone who is a Christian will show evidence of the presence of the Holy Spirit.

This is often described in connection with baptism. Cornelius showed evidence of the Spirit first, and then was baptised. The Samaritans baptised by Philip (Acts 8) showed no evidence of the Holy Spirit until baptised again by Peter and John.

Despite the quotation from Joel, Acts 2 does not say that the Spirit was poured out on everyone present in the crowd at Pentecost, only on those who had been with Peter and the Eleven. That's why Peter had to explain what was going on. Perhaps we should read Pentecost as just the beginning of the fulfillment of Joel's prophecy?

I do think we can suppress what the Spirit tries to do in (and through) our lives, but I think it is just basic that the Spirit is present in and with every Christian.

The Old Testament indicates that the Spirit was present in and with some Israelites, but it does not indicate that was true of every Israelite, nor that it was expected of every Israelite. Based on the Old Testament precedents, I would assume that the Holy Spirit may be in/with some Jews today, but I would also assume that the presence of God's Spirit is not considered an essential part of being Jewish. My assumption may be wrong.

Can't answer for anyone else, but I have the Holy Spirit, so I have to respectfully disagree with those who claim only Christians can.

Witch - is there a special name for the Holy Spirit in the Wiccan tradition?

Invocation
 

This is a type of prayer we use where we call or invite the Spirit of God to come and dwell within us

That sounds like one way in which Wiccanism (is that the right word?) and Christianity are not so different, as many Christians do the same thing in prayer.

Wicca would be the correct word to use where you would use Chirstianity or Buddhism etc

It's not unique to Wicca and Christianity either. Almost every religion has a belief wherein the Spirit of God is invited to indwell the believer. It's practically universal.

This is what I love about the WC - when we can talk, ask questions (and make mistakes) without fear of being judged. Thank you Witch for educating me a little bit on your faith tonight.

crazyheart, We can't hoard the Holy Spirit. We can't limit the Holy Spirit. We are just humans. God, however, can choose to set limits for himself.

In the Old Testament the Holy Spirit came on certain people at certain times for certain purposes however now Christians share in something even more wonderful, the constant indwelling presence of the Spirit. Indeed, we are even baptized by the Spirit and can be filled and re-filled with the Spirit.

Now, as for others, please consider the following verse...

"But the person who is not a Christian does not understand these words from the Holy Spirit. He thinks they are foolish. He cannot understand them because he does not have the Holy Spirit to help him understand." -- 1 Corinthians 2:14 (NLV)

We Christians are, as you suggest, to love our neighbor. That love is manifest when we bring them the good news of Jesus Christ and how they too may share in the Holy Spirit of God by accepting Jesus Christ as personal Lord and Savior..

Rich blessings.

---

MC jae

Jae consider that the NLV is  a translations with that uses only 899 words or so to  make it easy to read for non english speaking people and others who have a limited vocabulary.

No check out what these other version say. Do you see a problem? The other version do not use the term Christian and the other versions all seem to imply something completley different.  I have always wonder how people who take a a more literal interpetation of Bible verse, choose among the different version.  How do you choose? How do you understand things when different versions say different things?  It seems 

The CEV says 

That’s why only someone who has God’s Spirit can understand spiritual blessings. Anyone who doesn’t have God’s Spirit thinks these blessings are foolish.

 While another translation made to be easily to read like NLV is  The Meessage version, which  says

MCJae

The NLV makes a very self-serving and not entirely honest (from a Christian perspective) translation decision in 1 Corinthians 2:14.

The word used is "anthropos" (which means man, or more likely, person or human) but the Greek text does not use the word "Xristianos" - which is the word used in the New Testament for "Christian" in passages such as Acts 26:28 and 1 Peter 4:16.

So, the NLV version of 1 Corinthians 2:14 is not only a misleading proof text, it's an inaccurately translated misleading proof text.

The passage really says that "the natural person" does not have the Holy Spirit. To argue that "the natural person" is a Christian isn't clear from the text.

Since you're engaged in theological and biblical studies, you should know that.

There is a contradiction here MC jae.  How can you profess to love your neighbours when your comments suggest you and God will exclude anyone who is not Christian from experiencing or possessing the Spirit?

By your quote you have excluded the great world religions, including Wiccan, which is an insult to Witch.

That's why I don't call myself a Christian....I don't wish to be lumped in with people like you and your narrow vision.  What a turn-off...

One point, gecko. I don't necessarily disagree with what you're saying. I think we need to be very cautious about dictating what the Holy Spirit can or cannot do, since even Jesus says (a paraphrase here) that the wind (Spirit) blows where it will. But to use a phrase like "possessing" the Spirit is dangerous. No one (Christian or non-Chgristian) possesses the Spirit. From an evangelical Christian perspective, the issue would be "being filled" with the Spirit, not "possessing" or "experiencing" the Spirit (although, I agree, some charismatics would seem to fall into the trap of claiming virtual possession of the Holy Spirit to the exclusion of anyone else - even non-charismatic Christians.)

I will post more on the Holy Spirit, but right now I want to talk about something that can be done intentionally or unintentionally. That thing is supersessionism. Christianity superceding Judaism.

It directly contrasts dual covenant theology. It can reject that Gentiles were added to an existing covenant. It can say that the new covenant replaces the old. Judaism is supplanted by Christianity. It can teach that Judaism lost its legitimacy.

It contrasts the words of Genesis where an "everlasting covenant" was made.

It ignores that most "Christians" in the Bible were practicing Jews, Jesus included. (That is even after the resurrection). Gentile Christianity separated from Judaism in the 2nd century.

Supersessionism is the belief that Christianity completes Judaism, that it perfects it. It devalues Judaism unless it evolves into Christianity.

In a form of supersessionism, it maintains that the Jews are no longer considered to be God's Chosen people in any sense and leads to "replacement theology."

What is says is "better". It is heard in MCJae's statement (the bold is mine for emphasis
"In the Old Testament the Holy Spirit came on certain people at certain times for certain purposes however now Christians share in something even more wonderful, the constant indwelling presence of the Spirit. Indeed, we are even baptized by the Spirit and can be filled and re-filled with the Spirit."

A number of denominations, the UCCan included, have formally renounced supersessionism. They affirm that Jews and other non-Christians have a valid way to find God within their own faith.

Now, it is not just liberal denominations rejecting supersessionism. Evangelical dispensationalists reject supersessionism.

What is the big deal apart from that it may unpin ant Semitism?

Supersessionism affects the doctrines of God, anthropology, Christology, ecclesiology, and eschatology.

Again, the UCCan has taken a stance rejecting supersessionism.

I wonder if different people here are using the term "Holy Spirit" and meaning different things. I learned that upon being saved the Holy Spirit entered into a person forever. We still have the old sinful nature that we've always had but now the Holy Spirit is in us too. This is refering to part of the trinity of God. I wonder if some are using the term simply to mean faith or a religious nature?

Hi Crazyheart---When you ask a question ,like you have . Would not the place to go to for the answer, be to the one who gives it? The Bible says---------------------------------

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--I could post more but as many have said you all have Bibles, So why not read them?Heres something you mite like to turn to and read.-------------------------------------------

	Mar 16:15	And he said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to the whole creation.
	Mar 16:16	He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.
	Mar 16:17	And these signs will accompany those who believe: in my name they will cast out demons; they will speak in new tongues;
	Mar 16:18	they will pick up serpents, and if they drink any deadly thing, it will not hurt them; they will lay their hands on the sick, and they will recover."

-I have not picked up any  serpents yet.  As for drinking a deadly thing.  I gusse I wound'nt  know would I.The one power I like most , is God can talk with me every day, And I with Him.I believe and think  by Gods word . The Holy Spirit is not given you to save you. It is given to show you that you are save , and help you in this world.  All Glory Be To GOD.-----------------airclean33

Donning my yamulke LOL and explaining from a Jewish perspective (though I am no longer a practicing Jew)

In the Tanakh, the spirit of G-d IS G-d.

Ruach is used for wind, spirit, breath, mind.

It is in Genesis 1:2 hovering over the earth. It is the creative activity in Genesis. It is the animating dynamic that gives nepesh (soul). In all living creatures it is in the breath and G-d created it and G-d blew it into nostrils.  Ruach imparts the divine image to us.

It is a misconception that it only settled on some in Hebrew Scriptures.

It came upon some in the Hebrew Scriptures, as it came upon some in the Christian scriptures, that does not imply it was not always there or capable of working... When it came upon them it enabled them to speak or act on behalf of G-d.

One can see the use of Ruach Elohim (Spirit of G-d), Ruach Adonai (Spirit of the LORD), Ruach Hakkodesh (Holy Spirit), Rauch Adonai Adonia (Spirit of the LORD G-d), Rauch El (Spirit of G-d)...

The problem is that the term "Holy Spirit" or "Spirit of God" means different things to different religious traditions. The Christian use of "Holy Spirit" is filtered through our understanding of God as trinitarian. Other faiths (including Judaism) would reject that understanding of God. So I tend to agree with jon71. Essentially we're speaking completely different languages.

I believ so, but that as well I am making an argument that the Holy Spirit of the trinity is also present and can be found in others, who may use a different theology and describe it in different ways.

The Roman Catholic church has done something similar with their theology.   THey found after WW2 that they say the Holy Spirit at work inside non Catholics, and they could no longer deny that actions, and hearts of many Jews, Protestant and others during WW2 proved that. Now they still believe that their church is the best one and being Baptised Catholic is a guarantee. Also many Catholics and CHristians can also see the Holy Spirit at work in people who are non verbal, like people born with certain disabilities.  

Henri Neuman the Christian writer/Priest  who lived his last year in a community of extremely disabled adults who due to lack of language and other factors  would be unable to understand what Chrisitainity was,  let alone decide to become one.   Neuman claims that they taught him about God and how the Holy Spirit works in people.  Many things created this impression with him,  but especially thier extraordinary ability to live in the moment and be present for the Holy Spirit . " From Wiki "The results of a Christian Century magazine survey conducted in 2003 indicate that Nouwen's work was a first choice of authors for Catholic and mainline Protestant clergy"

The issue to me is not the the Holy Spirit of the Trinity isn't present in others; it's that the trinitarian language is offputting and inaccessible to those of other faith groups. And I'm not arguing in favour of abandoning trinitarianism because of that. Simply nothing that it sets up a barrier in terms of the phrase "Holy Spirit."

Hi SG--- I know you come from a fewish back ground. But may I also say so did Jesus. Are you saying in Gen --when God breathed  into man and he became a living being. That was the Holy Spirit , spoken of in the new testment?----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------SG--posted---

It came upon some in the Hebrew Scriptures, as it came upon some in the Christian scriptures, that does not imply it was not always there or capable of working... When it came upon them it enabled them to speak or act on behalf of G-d.----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Airclean--post--If all have the Holy Spirit , why would Jesus say wait untill ,God gives you the power from GOD.------------------------

	Act 1:4	And while staying with them he charged them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the promise of the Father, which, he said, "you heard from me,
	Act 1:5	for John baptized with water, but before many days you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit."

God Bless --airclean33

airclean,

I am saying they are two different religions and many languages and practices exist in those religions (both in their ancient forms and their modern ones).

The language Jesus used, that his disciples used, the religion they practiced is far from the religion practiced today.

I am saying that those who say Jews do not have the Holy Spirit, cannot have the Holy Spirit or only Christians do and say "my ___ is better than your ___" would also have to say it to Jesus. The scriptures he knew were the Hebrew ones. He was not a Christian, but a Jew. He was definitely not a Trinitarian. That is a later developed doctrine.

Many Christians say the Holy Spirit only came at Pentecost, afterJesus death. the third person of the Trinity. For them, the Holy Spirit DID NOT exist prior . I say many because not all Christians are Trinitarian.

There are potential problems with the idea that the Holy Spirit did not exist prior to Jesus' death. Jesus talks to Nicodemus about born of the Spirit. It is Jesus saying in John 6 that the words he speaks are Spirit and are life. There are others.

For me, prior to Pentecost God's Spirit blessed the people of Israel and was their very life. But after Pentecost the power of the Spirit spread out to the whole world. None of the benefits enjoyed in the pre-Pentecostal days were taken away. They were not invalidated. Something was added. God's message was for every tongue and tribe and nation.

I do not negate the OT or that people prior to Christians experienced Spirit as creator and sustainer of life, as counselor and teacher, as bestowing gifts, as enabling voctory in overcoming fear, as enabling feats of power, as giving new birth and indwelling, as giving power to renounce evil and declare righteousness, as a constant presence, as a  revelations, as a way to interpret dreams and visions, as prophecy....

That others use Holy Spirit exclusively is their theology, their language and their belief.

It can be supersessionism.

Hi SG--I belieeve you know  Israel , that is all 12 Tribes are not in Israel just yet. You know 10 Tribes are missing. Do you know if I am one of those missing? Am I praying today to  the GOD of my Farthers fathers, fathers God?Jesus was a jew , as far as I know He still is , the bible says He didn't come to destore Israel. He came to build it, to bring the promise of GOD to His Peopel.Those who follow Christ Jesus are to be addad to Israel.I am not one that thinks, God never used the Holy Spirit in the Old testment.I believe He did. I Love to read of Moses when His face shine was so bright , that he had to be covered, and those that were to work with him there face begin to shine. Yes SG The God of the Jews is the same  GOD .I walk with today.How could a Christian, deny the jewish God , without denying Jesus? The stars in the heavens , or the sands by the sea.  God Bless-- airclean33

You're setting up a false dichotomy. The way you've worded your post implies that Christians who are also trinitarian must therefore believe that the Holy Spirit came only at Pentecost. That simply isn't true. Indeed, a trinitarian Christian believes in one eternal God who has existed ETERNALLY as one God in three persons. If the trinitarian God only became fully trinitarian at Pentecost, then the trinitarian God cannot be truly trinitarian. The trinitarian nature of God is part of the eternal nature of God.

Hi crazyheart,

That is a frequent error made by many Christians who lean towards literal interpretations of scripture and who don't tend to know scripture, as a whole, all that well.

For example, when we talk as Christians about Spirit Given Gifts we tend to concentrate on passages in Romans or 1 Corinthians where Paul is being deliberate about types of gifts being expressed in the fledgling Christian communities.

We rarely, if ever, refer to Exodus 31 and the characters of Bezalel and Oholiab (Exodus 31:  3) explicitly has God saying, "I have filled him [Bezalel] with the Spirit of God" which is God clearly giving the Holy Spirit to someone who cannot honestly be considered "Christian."

Well, that is not so much an assumption as it is appealing to the ideal.  Apparently if we have love, one for another, we will be identifiable as Christ's disciples.  Regrettably most interpret "love, one for another" as meaning love only among those who claim to be Christian rather than love for whomever my neighbour might be.

Why would we hoard anything?  It is a character flaw and a fairly common one at that.  Each of us has been given gifts by the Holy Spirit, most of us never bother to identify which gifts they are or how those gifts can be shared.  I would argue that Christian's have an exceptional ability to hoard things like the "Holy Spirit."

That aside, it isn't Christians or even the Christian Church who gives the Holy Spirit it is God and God doesn't hoard the Holy Spirit.

If the wind blows where it wills then trying to keep it from blowing anywhere is an exercise in futility.

Well expectations are one thing and reality is often another.  I don't know if limiting who one would expect to find the Holy Spirit manifest in is greed or jealousy so much as it is ignorance.

For example if I were to say "only Christians can have the Holy Spirit." that doesn't mean I have more of it simply by stating that others cannot have it.  What it means, on a practical level, is that I would always say whatever good the non-Christian does isn't really good at all.  Based on the available labels I might be calling things that are good, evil and things that are evil, good.

Since the Holy Spirit is very near to that kind of blasphemy one would do well to watch their step.

Grace and peace to you.

John

I should have perhaps used "some" to be clearer that I was not setting up a false dichotomy.

Christianity is diverse.

Take your pick (and there are more options than I list)
The Holy Spirit came at Pentecost.
The Holy Spirit has always been.
The Trinity has always been God's nature, since the beginning.
The Trinity became the nature of God through events.
The Trinity is doctrine and the nature of God.
The Trinity is doctrine and not the nature of God.
The Trinity is the only nature of and way of expressing God.
The Trinity is one of many ways of expressing God.
The Trinity is doctrine and biblical.
The Trinity is doctrine and not biblical.
The Trinity is monotheism.
The Trinity compromises monotheism.
The Trinity rejects monotheism.
 

I am simply saying that I personally read Psalm 25 and do not think "apple" means a Mac just because it does now.  When I read Spirit, I read what was Greek pneuma and Hebrew ruach and meant "breath" not "third person of the Trinity".

The doctrine of the Trinity was a decision of orthodoxy - it began as an attempt at understanding the nature of God and the nature of Jesus. It was a way of trying to understand why the use of different terms (Father, Son, Spirit). It was trying to find in what way the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are in unity. It was later a decision and later still established as doctrine, but it was not the only option on the table or school of thought - then or now.

We have always been a diverse lot. =)

Fair enough Alex -- the spiritual self does not have the Spirit, while the spiritual self does. The question then would seem to be what is the difference between those two selfs. I believe the Bible makes clear that the difference is that the former is the self we are each born with, and the latter is created within us when we accept Jesus as Lord and Savior. In other words, this is just another way of saying that it is Christians who have the gifts of God's Spirit, and Christians who can know the Spirit, because Christian spirits are in union with the Holy Spirit. Everyone else has only the natural self. Now that does not mean that they are not capable of doing good. Non-Christians can do great good, on the horizontal plane. It also does not mean that the Holy Spirit is can not be active in the lives of non-Christians.

Rich blessings.

---

MC jae

I am not so much interested in what christians "claim" to have.....

I am much more interested in what they are liveing out......

Is that not the purpose of having this Holy Spirit within????

Just my thoughts.....

Rita

Amen Rita. It is time for revival in this land and in this world. The kingdom of God is at hand. It is time for laughter, time for healings, time for joy beyond human understanding, time for peace, time for oppression to end.  Let the redeemed of the Lord say so. Praise God.

Rich blessings.

---

MC jae

Hi revjohn    your quote   ---We rarely, if ever, refer to Exodus 31 and the characters of Bezalel and Oholiab (Exodus 31:  3) explicitly has God saying, "I have filled him [Bezalel] with the Spirit of God" which is God clearly giving the Holy Spirit to someone who cannot honestly be considered "Christian."

revjohn--- this is the Old Testament your quoting and Jesus hadn't come yet God Himself dealt directly with the people ----Now we can only get the Holy Spirit when we accept Jesus as the Lord in our lives ---we have to go through Jesus to obtain the Holy Spirit to be free from sin and death----no man who has not excepted Jesus can have the Holy Spirit ---and the Spirit of God in the Old Testement did not give salvation to the ones who were given the gift of the Spirit as far as I understand .

This is the scripture you quote --- it is to do with the skills of the trade

⁴ To devise skillful works, to work in gold, and in silver, and in bronze,

⁵ And in cutting of stones for setting, and in carving of wood, to work in all kinds of craftsmanship.

This is John Gill's Commentary on this

And I have filled him with the Spirit of God
 

Not with the special graces of the Spirit, or with spiritual gifts fitting for spiritual service in the knowledge of spiritual things, and the instruction of men in them, though, no doubt, he might have them; but with the gifts of ingenuity and skill in manual arts, and mechanical operations, as follows:

in wisdom, and in understanding, and in all manner of workmanship;
 

these explain what is meant by the Spirit of God he was filled with; namely, with a sufficient measure of natural wisdom, knowledge, and understanding in all sorts of workmanship hereafter mentioned, to qualify him for his office as a director therein; that is, he had such a share of knowledge of what was to be wrought, such wisdom and understanding in the ingenious and curious manner of working them, that though he did not work with his own hands, yet could teach, guide, and direct others how to do them: and this was not an ordinary but an extraordinary gift of knowledge of these things; nor was it owing to a fruitful invention, nor to long study and contrivance; but it was by the immediate inspiration of the Spirit of God, which was necessary at this time,

Grace and Peace to you

Amen unsafe! Preach the Word.

Now the Good News, friends, for any who have not already accepted Jesus -- today can be the very day of salvation. Today can be the day of freedom from sin and death. Today can be the day of being born anew.

Rich blessings.

---

MC jae

Interesting that I somehow managed

Thanks but I've already been born again... several times...

Hi RitaTG    Your Quote ---I am much more interested in what they are liveing out......

Is that not the purpose of having this Holy Spirit within????

It sounds like your waiting to judge the actions of others here ----The Holy Spirit within gives us all the tools required to change our actions and preform as we should but it is then up to the individual to put them in practice ----So don't be to quick to judge ---there are stages to conquer

RitaTG --- You say you have studied the Bible --then you should know that there are stages of Spiritual Maturity  ---when you accept Christ --you are a new and you are then a baby in Christ ---Faith --Trust --and obedience need to be developed.

Ummm, I didn't expect an altar call. jae. Do you have the credentials?

airclean,

Sure you can be a lost tribe member. Why not?

Do you think you might be Pashtun, Black Hebrew,Lemba, Cocha Jew, Cave-dweller, Pict, Scythian, Nasrani, Chiang Min, Pathan,  Armenian, indigenous from the Andes, Falasha, British Israelism, Kairite, Kaifeng, Igbo, Persian Jew, Samaritan, Ulster Protestant, House of Israel in Ghana, Mukuya, Muhammedan Berber, Mountain Jew....  follower of Herbert W. Armstrong or Walvoord or Arnold Murray or Gene Scott...  Two House-er, Christian Identity Movement (KKK, Aryan Nation, etc)....maybe Mormon?

I think anyone could say they are, heck, this many and more have said they are....

well unsafe ... maybe to you it seems that I am waiting to judge .... but that is far from my focus and intent.    Rather...... I am looking to actually live out what is inside me and in the process delight in finding those precious glimpses of the handiwork of God in others.    Especially those that I happen to have relationships with.

I also am well aware of the "stages of maturity" that you allude to.    As for the "baby in Christ" ... you do make a good point ........hopefully some of us have at least matured into adolescence.

Faith, trust, and obedience ........ those words can either be good or bad.....

When used as a means of control so that a person gets to wear the "Christian" label and attains the seal of approval from someone .....well .... not so good.....

When faith, trust, and obedience are based upon a path to a deeper and more mature relationship then it can be a good thing.   In that case more and more there is the need and the rightful duty to learn and understand in increasing measure and maturity the "whys".    I am not convinced that God is really calling us to blind obedience.    Rather I am more and more convinced that God is looking for a more mature considered obedience.    That to me is why blindly following the law is not enough.   Nor is blindly following a bunch of religious ritual and practice .... no matter how well intended ...is enough.    Were simple mindless faith, trust, and obedience enough then Jesus did not need to take the time to teach what he did.   Nor would there need to be a relationship with the Holy Spirit to teach and illuminate the way that scripture indicates.

The question I am interested in is what kind of faith, trust, and obedience is being developed.....

Good discussion by the way.....

Regards

Rita

Hi RitaTG

Thanks for your response ---appreciate your input .

Peace and Blessings to you

Seems to me that the Bible provides an excellent checklist for anyone to judge, or perhaps ascertain, the level of Holy Spirit Indwelling of anyone who claims to eb a Christian.

The fruits of the Spirit.

Hi unsafe,

That actually was me deliberately making a point unsafe.

The point being that it is God who gives any the Spirit of God and God has the freedom to give the Spirit of God to whomever God chooses, whenever God chooses.

The argument that MC jae made, and you want to support is that the Holy Spirit can only be given through faith in Jesus.  That reduces Christian faith to human work and reduces the gift of the Holy Spirit from being an outpouring of God's grace upon the people of God to a contractual obligation that forces God to act in a certain way.

That theology should be anathema.

Which is the position of works righteousness and as it denies the work of Christ I reject it.

How do we accept Jesus as Lord?  Do we, as fallen and sinful people have the abilty to do this completely on our own without any assistance from God whatsoever?

If you answer yes that you reject the notion of a fall because you embrace the notion that the human will is still free to do good and that human beings can be saved by the law simply because they can will to follow it perfectly.  In which case the life, death and resurerction of Christ is unnecessary for righteousness.

If you answer no then you must embrace the fact that long before you get around to accepting Jesus as Lord the Holy Spirit is already present in your life to convict you of your sinfulness and convince you of the glorious redemption freely given to you by the grace of Christ.

Respectfully unsafe, I refer to Exodus 31 but only quote verse 3 specifically where God says, "I have filled him with the Spirit of God." because I presume that all of us understand that when God fills Bezalel with the Holy Spirit (aka the Spirit of God) we trust that God wanted us to know that it was his Spirit in Bezalel.

Do you believe that it was not God's Spirit (aka the Holy Spirit) that indwelt Bezalel?

It is also true that the indwelling of God's Spirit in Bezalel imparted the Spirit given gift of craftsman ship.  Are you going to claim that this Spirit given gift is not a gift of the Holy Spirit?  And if so upon what grounds do you make that claim?

With all due respect to John Gill, I believe this is a seriously flawed argument.

Paul does not lift among either of his two lists illustrating gifts of the Holy Spirit the gift of craftsmanship therefore this instance of the Holy Spirit giving the gift of craftsmanship must not be a special grace.  This presupposes that Paul's lists were exhaustive.  

That the two lists are not identical forces those who advocate for the lists being exhaustive to compile those lists and claim that the combined list is exhaustive and yet once combination is allowed there is no honest justification to limit further attempts to combine gifts.  

Particularly when the scriptures themselves make if blatantly obvious that God is giving an individual the Spirit of God and that Spirit imparts to the individual an ability or a greater measure of an already recognized ability.

What do we know of Bezalel beyond this chapter?  Do we know enough to say that the graces Gill expects to see in the life of an individual so blessed with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit did not manifest?  No.  We don't.  So the argument Gill makes is one based on silence.  It is nothing.

Admittedly we cannot prove that what Gill expect to see must have been present without any evidence to corroborate such a position.  That too would be an argument from silence and I'm not making any such argument.

I am pointing to God speaking in Exodus 31:  3 and asking if we, as people of faith, will accept it or reject it.

Did God put the Spirit of God (aka the Holy Spirit) in Bezalel or not?

If God did then everything that flows out of Bezalel's life for the glory of God is due to the indwelling of God's Spirit.  If God did not then everything Bezalel does is simply ordinarry human endeavour.

If MC jae's argument is theologically sound then Bezalel, who is a Jew and not a Christian could not have the Holy Spirit inside him and God's claim in Exodus 31:  3 is a lie.

If God's claim about putting the Spirit of God inside Bezalel is to be believed then MC jae's argument is theologically unsound and needs to be corrected.

Grace and peace to you.

John

1.  Those who find "Holy Spirit" to be meaningful will find it meaningful

1.a.  Not all who find "Holy Spirit" to be meaningful will find it be meaningful in the same way

1.a.i. "Meaningful" includes but is not limited to history, politics, linguistics, social norms, semiotics, memories, familial rituals, tribal rituals...

2.  Those who don't find "Holy Spirit" to be meaningful won't find it to be meaningful

3.  It is possible for people to find isomorphisms in the term "Holy Spirit"

Hi SG-- When I was young , My mother  used to say I was Black foot. But I think it was because I would never leav my shoes on. God Bless--airclean33

Actually revjohn, my claim was that only Christians have the Holy Spirit. That's a statement dealing with the present day.

As for the past, I think I already mentioned that I believe that the Spirit came upon certain people in specific times for specific reasons.

Rich blessings.

---

MC jae 

MAC jae  --your quote  -- that only Christians have the Holy Spirit. That's a statement dealing with the present day.

-As for the past, I think I already mentioned that I believe that the Spirit came upon certain people in specific times for specific reasons.

Exactly my thougths as well ---I agree  --

revjohn    Your Quote to me ----Do you believe that it was not God's Spirit (aka the Holy Spirit) that indwelt Bezalel?

This is my quote to you ----God Himself dealt directly with the people ----Now we can only get the Holy Spirit when we accept Jesus as the Lord in our lives ---

my answer is there and I am talking about The Spirit of God ---God Himself ---now we need to accept Jesus in this present day ---God does not directly deal with us  humans now to give The Holy Spirit --we need Jesus to have it ----according to the Bible which is God's word ------ 

This is God Speaking here

³ And I have filled him with the Spirit of God, in wisdom andability, in understanding and intelligence, and in knowledge, and in all kinds of craftsmanship,

Others that God Himself gave His Spirit to in the Old Testament for a spectific task ---

Joseph ---To interpret Pharaoh's dream ---Genesis

¹⁶ “I cannot do it,” Joseph replied to Pharaoh, “but God will give Pharaoh the answer he desires.”^(Y)

³⁸ So Pharaoh asked them, “Can we find anyone like this man, one in whom is the spirit of God

Gideon ---To save Isreal   ---Judges

³⁴ Then the Spirit of theLord came on^(BI) Gideon, and he blew a trumpet,

⁶ Gideon said to God, “If you will save^(BO) Israel by my hand as you have promised

revjohn  your quote 

The argument that MC jae made, and you want to support is that the Holy Spirit can only be given through faith in Jesus.  That reduces Christian faith to human work and reduces the gift of the Holy Spirit from being an outpouring of God's grace upon the people of God to a contractual obligation that forces God to act in a certain way.

This says through Faith we receive ----this is an article on this subject

ttp://www.christianhomesite.com/cherryvale/text/holyspirit.html

In Galatians 3:14, Paul explains exactly what this great blessing would be. This great blessing which God sends through Christ, the seed of Abraham, comes to us when by faith we receive the Holy Spirit. Of course, Jesus came to die for our sins with the result that through him we might have the forgiveness of sins. But this was only a means to a greater end. He takes away the guilt of sin so that we might no longer be separated from God and so that He might live with us again. This is done when we at last receive the gift of the Holy Spirit which is the gift of the very person and presence of God to live in us. This is a truly great blessing!

In the Old Testament God on several occasions tells about the time when He will send His Holy Spirit to live within His people, a time when the separation from sin will be taken away and He will himself come to live within His people. For example, in Ezekiel 36:26-28, God speaks of the time when He would put His Spirit IN His people to move them to follow His will. In Zechariah 12:10ff He speaks of the time when He would POUR OUT on His people a spirit of grace. In Joel 2:28-32 God tells about a time when He would POUR OUT His spirit on ALL flesh. Through Isaiah God also points to a coming time when He would pour out His Spirit on His people (Isaiah 44:3; 32:15). In every such prophecy, it is clear that God is promising to pour out His Spirit, not on merely a few, but on all who will be His people.

revjohn you can believe as you like --it is your belief ---as long as it works for you believe it ---I personally believe God's word ---

Peace and Grace to you  

Hi MC jae,

Too true.  It is a present day statement that seriously limits God's ability to do as God wills.

According to your present day statement God is not free to do as God wills.  You have constrained God to working only with Christians by making the gifting of the Holy Spirit dependent upon confession in Christ rather than allowing the Holy Spirit to be given to lead an individual to make a confession in Christ.

So, in your present day theological construct, the gifting of the Holy Spirit is dependent upon human work which apparently only Christians are capable of.

The Holy Spirit cannot be present in the lives of any and convince them that Jesus is who Christians claim him to be simply because those individuals are not Christian and the Holy Spirit cannot touch them.

At least, that is the natural outcome of your position.

Grace and peace to you.

John

does the Holy Spirit ever laugh?

Hi unsafe,

Which implies that so long as I don't believe what you believe I cannot possibly believe in God's word.

I'm glad you are so open minded.

Grace and peace to you.

John