"Man is certainly stark mad; he cannot make a flea, and yet he will be making gods by dozens." Michel de Montaigne (1533-1592)

Whether we invented Satan or not, we have certainly re-invented him several times.

I'm sure he was pleased when Christianity promoted him from the lowly agent of God, assistant deputy attorney general, as it were, that he was in the Hebrew scriptures, to the immensely powerful, omnipresent, and capable adversary of God, with his own army of angels, and worshipped by most of the population of the earth.

Quite a step up on the ol' resume.
 

He's still the defeated foe he's always been - as long as you are a Christian who knows the power you have in Jesus' name. He was a being created by God to be the worship leader of Heaven, but fallen because he wanted to BE God.  There isn't any difference between what he was in the old testament to the new.  He wants to steal our joy and take our mind off God.  He's doing pretty good it seems ............

When I was in elementary school I drew cartoons.   One cartoon strip I drew was Jesus fighting Satan and winning.  I named it Jesus, The Devil, and Serena.  We had weekly adventures together.   Likely I was bored in Sunday School studying Noah's Ark.

Lol

Seriously though...

Satan is a term we give to the personification of evil, also known as the devil and the Antichrist. To understand this concept we have to look at the root source of evil, which are the "forces of materiality". These are the natural forces in nature that uphold and maintain the material form aspect of our planet.

If you think about the forces of life and death occurring like a cycle you can begin to get a better understanding what these forces of materiality are. Before anything is born into this world it had to have an unseen and secretive force behind it. This is the force of involution, bringing life into a world of matter and form. These forces are complemented by their opposite force which are the "forces of spirituality", also known as the forces of evolution and the Christ or Soul Consciousness.

The problem of evil is that these forces of materiality do not restrict their activity to the downward arc of involution. If they did then everything would be ok as these forces are a natural part of any cyclic activity. But instead these forces overflow from time to time onto the upward arc of evolution. This is where evil is born and the forces of the Antichrist can be seen.

Normally this Antichrist force is "sealed off" to it's own domain, thus lifting the awareness of humanity above the level from which these forces can have contact and influence. And this is, apparently, the work that the Christ has taken on in our time, that is, the work of keeping these forces of materiality on the physical plane and thus raising the awareness of Humanity to a level where it will seem like a "heaven on Earth".

The Antichrist forces have been with us for a long time but were let loose in a bigger way for a time during the World Wars. They are now in process of being sealed off in preparation for the Age of Aquarius (the man bearing the pitcher of water). They will be "chained down for a time and half a time", meaning they will be sealed off but will resurface again half way through the Age of Capricorn (which is a time and half a time away).

So did we invent Satan? Partly so, because it is us who have the ability to rise above that seal of evil to a realm that evil can't touch. But I suspect that we're not going to do it alone. We are in desperate need for some divine guidance on right human relations. God help us all, for instance, if we don't stop nuclear pollution, war and poverty, three of the greatest evils on our planet today.

Cheers,

Have a nice day.

  I think we invented Satan in the same we invented God.. After all is it not a symbiotic relationship . Then again who invented us if not ourselves?

He's not the enemy of God, his name really isn't Lucifer and he isn't even evil. And as far as leading Adam and Eve astray, that was a bad rap stemming from a case of mistaken identity. "There's little or no evidence in the Bible for most of the characteristics and deeds commonly attributed to Satan," insists a UCLA professor with four decades in what he describes as "the devil business." In "Satan: A Biography" (Cambridge Press), Henry Ansgar Kelly puts forth the most comprehensive case ever made for sympathy for the devil, arguing that the Bible actually provides a kinder, gentler version of the infamous antagonist than typically thought.

"A strict reading of the Bible shows Satan to be less like Darth Vader and more and more like an overzealous prosecutor," said Kelly, a UCLA professor emeritus of English and the former director of the university's Center for Medieval and Renaissance Studies. "He's not so much the proud and angry figure who turns away from God as [he is] a Joseph McCarthy or J. Edgar Hoover. Satan's basic intention is to uncover wrongdoing and treachery, however overzealous and unscrupulous the means. But he's still part of God's administration."
 

The view runs in opposition to the beliefs held by many Christians and others about key religious concepts like original sin and the nature of good and evil. "If Satan isn't really in opposition to God and he isn't really evil, then that means the fight between good and evil isn't an authentic part of Christianity," Kelly said. "What I'm saying will be scandalous to some people." But what would you expect of someone's whose 72nd birthday fell this year on June 6 (06-06-06) and who felt disappointed when nothing momentous occurred that day? Actually, Kelly is no stranger to bubble-bursting. After digging deep into the history of Valentine's Day, he pronounced 20 years ago that he had not only uncovered the holiday's origins but that it should be celebrated in May, not February.

Still, if Kelly could be considered scandalous, it's not because he doesn't know any better. Kelly started his academic career at a Jesuit seminary and was ordained in four of the seven holy orders on the way to the priesthood, including the order of exorcist. "It was at that time that I started my campaign to rehabilitate the devil - to deliver him from evil, as it were," Kelly said. "Satan: A Biography" is the culmination of more than 40 years of research into the devil and religious and cultural traditions that have grown up around him. The book is Kelly's third on the topic.
 

When it comes to the Old Testament, Kelly insists that Satan's profile is considerably lower than commonly thought and significantly less menacing. By Kelly's count, Satan only appears three times in the 45 books that make up the pre-Christian scriptures, the best known being in the Book of Job. On each occasion, Satan is still firmly part of what Kelly calls "God's administration," and his activities are done at the behest of "the Big Guy." But his actions aren't evil so much as consistent with the translation of "devil" and "satan," which literally mean "adversary" in Greek and Hebrew, respectively. "His job is to test people's virtue and to report their failures," Kelly said.

Perhaps most surprising is not the figure Satan cuts, but his notable absences in the Old Testament. In the Bible's first reference to Lucifer, for instance, Satan doesn't appear - even by implication, Kelly points out. "'Lucifer' is Latin for light-bearer," he said, and was the name given to the morning star, or the planet Venus. Originally written in ancient Hebrew, the passage, on face value, refers to the tyrannical Babylonian king who boasts of his conquests but who is "about to be cast to the ground." Kelly insists there's nothing more to the reference than an apt use of metaphor, but the third-century Christian philosopher Origen of Alexandria argued in his best known work, "On First Things," that the reference applied to Satan. "Origen says, 'Lucifer is said to have fallen from Heaven,'" Kelly explained. "'This can't refer to a human being, so it must refer to Satan.' Subsequent church fathers found this reasoning persuasive, and so did everyone who followed them."

Ironically, the only mentions of Lucifer in the New Testament - and there are three of them - refer to Jesus, Kelly said. "Jesus is called 'Lucifer' or 'the morning star' because he represents a new beginning." Another prominent omission in the Old Testament, Kelly said, can be found in Genesis. "Nobody in the Old Testament - or, for that matter, in the New Testament either - ever identifies the serpent of Eden with Satan," Kelly said. "The serpent is just the smartest animal, and he's motivated by envy after being jilted by Adam for Eve."

Kelly traces the correlation of Satan and the serpent to not long after the New Testament was completed. In his "Dialogue With Trypho," the second-century Christian martyr Justin of Samaria first argued that Satan appeared as a serpent to tempt Adam and Eve to disobey God, according to Kelly. "This is what I call 'The New Biography,'" Kelly said. "It starts with Justin Martyr, who implicates Satan in the fall of Adam and Eve. By causing Adam and Eve to fall, Satan caused his own fall. "The second step in this new and phony biography comes with Origen, who said, 'No, Satan's first sin was not deceiving Adam and Eve or refusing to go along with God's plan of creating Adam in his own image,'" Kelly said. "'It was to sin out of pride like the morning star, like Lucifer in the passage from Isaiah.' Turning Satan into God's enemy is a two-step process."

Meanwhile, in passages in Luke, Matthew, Corinthians and elsewhere in the New Testament, Satan continues to act as a tester, enforcer and prosecutor but not as God's enemy, Kelly points out. "Everyone else has said that by the time Satan gets to the New Testament, he is evil, he's an enemy of God, but that's not so," Kelly said. "The whole biblical picture of Satan is that of a bad cop to Yaweh's good cop in the Old Testament, and to Jesus' good cop in the New Testament. Throughout, Satan is someone who works for God."

A scene in the New Testament's Book of Revelation is often cited today as evidence that Satan was the deceiver of Adam and Eve, but the interpretation stems from a fundamental misunderstanding, Kelly argues. "'That ancient serpent' refers to the giant sea serpent Leviathan, not the garden snake of Eden," he said. "In Revelation, Leviathan has morphed into a dragon, or large serpent, with the seven heads and 10 horns, which is still further removed from the seductive serpent who deceived Eve." In addition to linking Satan with the Garden of Eden, the passage from Revelation also has been used to prove that Satan fell early on in the Bible, but Kelly insists that is not accurate. "Satan's ouster from heaven in Revelation is explained as taking place in the future," Kelly said. "In Revelation 12:10, a voice says that 'the accuser of our brothers is cast out, overcome by the testimony of martyrs.' Since there were no martyrs until Christ died, that has to be in the future."

Similarly, a passage in the Gospel of Luke, when Jesus reports having seen "Satan fall like lightning," has been misinterpreted, according to Kelly. "Jesus saw the fall in the past because he had the vision the day before he describes it to the apostles," Kelly said. "But Jesus is referring to a future fall [of Satan] from his position as God's attorney general." This is not to say, however, that Kelly contends that Satan is likeable. "Jesus doesn't like him, and Paul doesn't like him," Kelly explained. "He represents the old guard in the heavenly bureaucracy, and everyone longs for him to be disbarred as the chief accuser of humankind."

Satan is the teacher in the world of form. In the symbolic story of Adam and Eve Satan was there to reveal that the world of form leads to suffering if attachment to that form (as symbolized in the consuming of the forbidden fruit ) is over emphasized. Satan has been with us ever since (at least our personification of this energy), teaching us, tempting us into a higher way of thinking.

Lucifer, on the hand, (I believe) has been totally misunderstood by Christian groups who associate Lucifer with the devil. From what I understand this is totally not the case. Lucifer is said to be the name of the great angel Who ensouls the human kingdom. Each human soul is an individualised part of one great oversoul, and the name of that great oversoul is Lucifer.

The story of the 'fall from paradise' of Adam and Eve is really the story of the incarnation of the human souls into human evolution. It was not a fall from grace but rather a deliberate part of the plan of evolution. Human souls gave up living in paradise (pralaya) and began to take incarnation into the physical plane.

What do you mean by "satan"? Evil? That would bring up the question whether evil existed before "mans" existence or if it took the existence of  "man" to determine what was evil. 

Satan, in its purest form, is the energy of involution, the energy that lies in and behind all manifestation. It's just a energy but we've personified and mythified it to the point where we've lost the original meaning. Without this downward energy, form could not exist.

Did evil exist before man's existence? I think it took our existence of mankind to determine and define it. During the individualization of man, that is, that point in the myth of the Garden of Eden when Adam and Eve took the fruit from the tree of knowledge and, in it's most basic form, consumed it, we began to know 'good and evil'. Adam and Eve suddenly became 'aware' that they were naked. It was at this point, according to the myth, they first became aware of evil and how it could hold them back from getting 'back to the garden'.

This event marked the bottom of the swing of the pendulum. They could only move forward from there, out of the garden to till the ground from which they were taken. In other words they had to live out their physical lives of form wrestling with the pairs of opposites of good and evil.

If the involutionary forces crept into their stand on the evolutionary scale of things then suffering occurred. It was a huge lesson to learn and it culminated, amazingly, with our Earth producing a Christ, a God-Aware Master of Masters. I think it was amazing for our Earth because of the ignorance and selfishness that abounded in the world at that the time (and still does abound!). As a race we are now slowly beginning to awaken and become aware of the 'good and evil' forces that effect our being.

****

As a side note, I read once that all of us, as souls, started out incarnating in this world in a reverse direction around the Zodiac, the Wheel of Life.

From Aries to Taurus, via Pisces it went around and around, involving itself into this world. But eventually, and gradually, the soul's incarnations (us) began to become more and more aware of the inner forces of their (our) being, and therefore they (we) began to gain response from the soul.

The soul, in turn, responded by beginning a reverse direction around the Zodiac. It was starting to evolving itself out of this world. From Aries to Pisces, via Taurus, the soul began to "walk the path" of enlightenment. And this forward momentum is felt in our little (daily) lives and so we, in turn, respond even more to the energy of soul.

Eventually we reach the point of salvation where we identify more with our soul, the Christ Consciousness within, than with our own personality, out little life. And thus eventually our personality is left on the fixed cross of the Zodiac (e.g. Taurus, Leo, Scorpio and Aquarius) and we, as souls, move forward into the next kingdom of Earth, the spiritual Kingdom of Souls. Thy Kingdom come.

With all this said, I should add that not everyone is walking the Zodiac in the same direction, hence one of the main reasons for strife in our world.

I kind of want to say "...duh".

As-salaamu alaikum

-Omni

It's all about energy Omni. However we personify it, it still comes down to energy and how it plays out in the manifestation of our physical universe and the other planes of nature - the many mansions that Jesus talked about.
 

Everything in existence is just an projection of our mind onto the world.  So of course we invented Satan.  We devoted our energy to it, so it exists.

All we need to do to kill it, is stop devoting time to it.  Then we will see the true face of oppression.

As-salaamu alaikum

-Omni

Wow.

I have come from Satan's siliminitude in the O.T. and the new, to the rule  of evil being the materiality of the universe...

The complexity!

My simple view is that there is no such thing as 'evil' --- it's all ignorance.

Sides Why after building heaven did God want a 'chief worshiper' ?

Or let him become The Accuser ?

Or want worshipers ?

Or allow 'evil'?

Or so limit the human   life-span?

Or only allow us to be aware of 40% of the number of dimensions there are?

Or hide from so many?

-----

This thread seems to be peopled by those with the answers to these things.... 

I await with pleasure....

Ah... quantum quirks....

BAD universe! (The collider searches on for the Naughty Boson...)

I too regard the Adam and Eve story not as a literal fall from grace into a sinful world but rather I regard it as a symbolic 'coming of age' story. Mankind graduates, so to speak, from a completely innocent animal nature into a fully self aware human nature as free moral agents.

Ha, ha. Yea I'm sure that the quantum physicists are not thinking about the involutionary forces while they look for the infamous God Particle.

I've long thought that we make monsters out of powerful people so that we can believe that they are evil and somehow different from us.  It lets us find excuses for not doing more to help.

You mean like Satan being a scape-goat for all our problems?

I quite agree with the idea of Satan being simply a personification of the failings we have. My objection of it being a personification is that it wastes out time, and misleads us, by setting up a straw man as the cause of our problems.

A handful of Saudis crash into New York? this is the work of the devil. We mourn with the US because we all oppose Satan.

The US responds by killing a ,million Iraqis, and we join them in killing Afghanis and Libyans. Most of us do not mourn Iraqim Afghani or Libyan dead. Nor do we blame this much greater slaughter than New York on Satan. We just don't give a damn.

It's indifference that leads to evil.

Yes, Satan - and I use the name as a proper noun on purpose - does exist.  And I would consider indifference to suffering or the creation of suffering an evil thing...a sin of omission if you will.

We all know good exists - and for me as a Christian it is embodied in Christ.

We also all know evil exists.  Satan is the embodiment and director of that evil.

God bless,

I agree.

It is a personification of our failings.

Once we disown what is rightfully ours we can then absolve ourselves of responsibility  for our failings.

Once personal ownership for our failings disappears - it can lead to projecting them, not only onto Satan - but  onto other humans, which compounds the tragedy.

There is definately evil in the world, and we definately see it personified in various figureheads throughout history...but then again, they were just humans and probably weren't pure evil either...but they let evil take dominion over them...I choose not to put a name and specific face on it--or to give it power in my life, no matter how tough life gets--to do so creates a kind of primordial fear that leads to a kind of idolatry...because you become bound by fear by focusing on it. You can see that manifested when people (like one who has recently been on WC) preach fire and brimstone apocalyptic stuff. They are giving evil...primordial fear...power. Don't pay it any attention or spend too much time analyzing it...in my opinion, if there is a devil, to have you wallow in fear and misery is exactly what it would want.

Hear, hear Kimmio.
 

And for you I have a little song, it's just for you..
 

, Neo!

Hi Graeme, I am sitting here in my corner following the conversation. This thread has me putting on my thinking cap. On the other hand, did we invent Santa Claus? Santa Claus was part of my life before Satan. About the time I started to realize Santa Claus was made up, I started learning that Satan was a real problem. Here at WonderCafe, I am starting to realize that Satan is something made up because we needed a scapegoat.

Seems to me, we also needed pie in the sky so we invented Heaven. It also seems to me that the American military machine is doing a pretty good job of creating Hell in the poorer countries.

Jesus seems to be our best invention so far. But we tend to put him in a back seat.

It seems I completely missed the original point of this post. I was distracted by another thread when I wrote my above comment. Yes, I do think ignorance and indifference play a role in the spread of evil....and also selfishness and for some the need for control over others. Evil itself is a negative energy that leads to harm...manifested as fear, anger hatred, greed. I was not suggesting we ignore evils effects in the world, and not  look at our own behaviours. Rather, I was pointing out that both good and evil are personified within individuals to various degrees depending on which "force" we focus on...which one we allow to inform and  guide our decisions....for me that includes the spiritual perspective...and I am aware of the tendency for some to promote fear in spiritual matters...which was not the main  point of this thread and I got sidetracked as I said . But change, waking up to our own ignorance and changing our own behaviours towards others for the greater good, starts within each of us.

Similar to what  Naman said...Jesus, although I don't believe he is our own invention, I personally believe he's our best role model, lest we forget!

Mmm... pie in the sky.

any one who believes in heaven as a place - and as a place above the clouds - is, indeed, seeing pie in the sky.

I think that we invented both God and Satan to some extent and that both have been used as strawmen and scapegoats at times. The former should be a metaphor for the creative powers that sustain and strengthen us, but is all too often used as a blunt instrument to justify whatever stance the user supports. The latter should be a metaphor for the urge to do wrong, to go against what is best for us and society, but often becomes an excuse for avoiding the real problems in our lives and society. Religion should be upholding the best meanings and purposes of these metaphors but all too often does the opposite and upholds the strawman side.

Mendalla

Personal aside to MC--I get your humour. You were just trying to lighten the mood a bit. I read on another thread that you're an INFP, me too. I haven't met many, but we're an odd bunch and easily misunderstood I think. Good intentions that get misperceived by people at times...or sometimes get too hastily expressed...that's been my own experience.  

As for Heaven being a physical place ...we don't know. It might be good energy manifested in some other form from what we experience now, it could be good prevailing on a transformed earth. We can only believe that whatever happens, God's plan is good. Good prevails in us through God, as evidenced in Jesus...and God's goodness is evidenced in us through Jesus. I believe. I also believe the Holy Spirit guides us to discover our better selves...and works through all of us so we can learn from each other and help each other. All things are possible, I believe, but it's for God to know what that will look like. That's all I can do, is believe. If someone believes heaven is a physical place, or a spiritual plain...or  triumph over evil on earth, thus transforming it...as long as they are believing in God's greater good and living wholeheartedly and sincerely in good conscience and goodwill towards others in this life with their faith set on love prevailing, I see no harm in accepting what another thinks heaven looks like might be different from what I imagine...because none of us knows, we just have faith.

Hi Naman,

Just want to say how much I enjoyed reading your post.

Nobody has talked yet about what Jesus said about Satan.  Jesus spoke of Satan in the Bible as a tangible, cognisant being.  How can one state that "we"  invented Satan when Jesus spoke of this being?  Are we also saying that we invented what Jesus spoke?  I know this is the position of the Jesus Seminar.  How many feel the same way? 

Have the words of Jesus found in the Bible fallen into such disrepute that we no longer consider them worthy of inclusion in a discussion like this?  Because that would make me very, very sad.

God bless,

I also notice most of the clergy aren't touching this thread with a 10 foot pole.  Hmmmmmm....

I'm personally not denying that Jesus spoke about Satan. I'm just not pressuming to put a face on Satan in our present time or figures in history or name anyone as such ...as people try to do...allowing evil to gain power. I see that it leads to more hatred and war and widens the gap between people. It's a gamble, and the devil's game, to go around judging other human beings as Satan...so many people waste time trying to figure out who on earth is the ulltimate embodiment of evil...who we should be going to war with...look at all the war going on....people get persecuted and killed needlessly because of it...and as Greame mentioned...the rise of corporate corruption at the expense of the people...and yet completely miss possibility of "evil" in the form of xenophobia and greed in ourselves, which contributes to the problem, and are content to judge others as the problem instead..."Do not judge, lest ye be judged" being a good example.

I think the We is the human race, not us in the nowadays.  So of course Jesus could have talked about Satan in a literal sense, because the idea had already been created hundreds (thousands) of years before Jesus' birth.

As-salaamu alaikum

-Omni

but that makes no sense, if Jesus is the truth then He  would have know wether satan was true or man made, and Jesus always stated i speak the truth. 

luke 10:18  He replied, "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.

If Jesus did not see satan fall, then Jesus is not telling the truth 

Hey there,

I'm having a slump day, so I am all over these threads today...I think Omni's comment makes sense when we look at it in terms Jesus being the first and the last...in this sense our linear perception and concept of time is challenged by metaphor.. if we consider that metaphor tells spiritual truth.

Hi Kimmio,

Have you heard of the Screwtape Letters by C.S. Lewis?  Wherever you stand on this issue, it's a fascinating read - and gives voice to the proposition that Satan, as Jesus stated, is a sentient and very real being.

 I agree with what you say about people using faith - and labels - to foster hatred and violence.  People and groups who do such a thing in the name of God or their faith are perverting it beyond recognition.  Having said that, the Psalmist states that we should recognize evil and fight it at every turn.  As Graeme often points out so eloquently and passionately, sometimes that evil can often take place at our own back doors.

God bless,

Hi Dave,  I did read the screwtape letters...it was creepy...but a work of fiction coming from the mind of a writer with his own view.

I believe evil is at our own back doors, but not just that...the tendency to judge or be afraid of another because they are different, or to be jealous or greedy, is us allowing evil to fester in ourselves and spread it onto others. Whereas we should focus on and foster love,which takes the power away from evil to hurt us or others. I'm not saying it doesn't exist, I'm just saying it doesn't deserve a soapbox or to be the subject of fascination. It is overcome by loving "over and above it" if you will...  it then gets put in it's proper place, renders it powerless.

I just remembered when Jesus said to Peter "Get behind me Satan"...he wasn't literally naming Peter as Satan, but was pointing out that Peter was working against the greater good that Jesus was teaching. I learned that Satan actually by translation means adversary...that could have a variety of implications, as sometime we are our own worst enemies and hence are not so good for others.

There are different ways of seeing things than simply with the physical eyes. True spiritual vision can only be described by using analogy and metaphor.

It was mentioned above that Jesus actually talked to Satan. This, of course, was in reference to the three temptations of Christ during his forty day fast in the desert, His "wilderness experience".

Rather than simply reading these temptations literally, each one could be read metaphorically and in symbolically. The following could be one way of reading deeper meaning in these temptations.

Each temptation could represent one of three of the main main glamours that we must overcome, e.g. the glamours that beseech all of us.

1. the "maya" or "maze" of the physical world
2. the "glamour" of our emotional experiences
3. the "illusions" that the mind creates
 

Maya refers to the physical world and is related to the first temptation. We live in a world of energies where everything of form is nothing but an aggregation of energies in motion. It is literally a maze of energies of which the physical world we know of is but an image or a projection cast upon a backdrop of matter.

Glamour refers to our emotional world where our desires live. It colours our lives with worries, anxieties, and false values. Glamour is age old, it is the desires of men and women all down the centuries that have driven them to want and need the usless and fruitless things of life. Once the light of the soul is cast into this plane of nature then the glamours are dissipated, like sunlight burning away the fogs of confusion.

Illusion refers to our lower mental faculties and is a attitude of mind of those who are more intellectual than emotional. The illusions of the mind comes in the form of being over attached to thought forms and the general misunderstanding of ideas and concepts. It is generally a case of not thinking clearly. While glamour has most of the world in it's grip today, illusion can be very powerful since it can manifest in a form of mind control that the aspirant may not be aware of. The sin of the mind is pride.

Note that each of the temptations start with the word "if" and are responded to by Christ with the worlds "It is written". The word "if", I believe, was meant to bewilder and to create doubt. With each temptation, however, Christ's replies with clear cut principles. "It is written" was not likely another way of simply saying "The Bible says", but more likely to be in reference to the fact that He was the Word of God, a Word which was written upon Him like a signature. He knew the truth because He was the truth. The truth was "written" in His very flesh.

In the first temptation Christ was confronted with physical force of strength. In the second temptation the devil attempted to drain Him with the emotional use of His divine power. In the third temptation the devil tempted Him with the illusion of (temporal) power.

There are many ways of reading the Bible. Reading it literally, e.g. the dead letter, runs you the risk of missing the inner and deeper symbolic meanings.

Hi Kimmio,

Again I agree with you, love is the most potent force that God has given us and will overcome all things.  However we should also remember Jesus pushing over the vendor's tables at the temple.  Sometimes the love we have for humanity must be made manifest through a powerful arm. 

Don't think I'm a hawk; I'm not...and I agree with many points Graeme has made about dirty little wars waged to prop up regimes and regions that serve larger, evil ends.  Why has next to nothing been done in the Sudan, given the atrocities being conducted, yet other countries were invaded and occupied during that same period at such great loss of life?  Why for the political and ultimately economic ends of course.

But I also believe there are times we must actively fight evil and rescue those in danger from it, although it should always be something we undertake with bitterness and gall.

In your other post about Jesus using the term Satan in terms of a general adversary, the fact remains he used the name Satan, as a proper noun, to give voice to the Peter's adversarial statement.

God bless,

...Hi Dave

Did you say we should always fight evil with bitterness and gall, or was that a typo?

Hi Kimmio,

I guess I didn't communicate very well.  What I mean is that if we are forced to fight evil in a physically active way, all the way through to armed conflict, we should do it only as a last resort.  And even then we should not be happy about having to do so - that is to do it not for the glory or any sense of dominance - but rather with bitterness and gall  that evil has forced us to take such measures.

God bless,

Not a typo, just my lousy communication skills...

Hi Dave,

Well...I wish we could fight evil through means like 60's style love ins or WAR IS OVER signs...aka John Lennon style...or could you, imagine g20 leaders having group hugs....lol...yes, I am naive...but maybe it's not such a bad idea...which is crazier...guns or hugs?

Hi Kimmio,

There's nothing naive about hoping the hug (read diplomacy, dialogue, communication, negotiation, education) works.  You're right, we should always use the hug, or a form of it,  until we're completely out options and hold that hug up as the standard we work toward...

God Bless,

Suppose we embrace Jung's view that all minds are connected via the collective unconscious.  Then however Hell be understood, hellbound evil humans would generate the negative energy of a group mindset.  Other intelligent lifeforms opposed to pure unconditional love (beings from other  planets, elemental spirits, demons, etc. might contribute to and intensity this mindset.  "Satan" (= Adversary) might be a term that poetically personlfies all negative conscious energies that are freely opposed to pure unconditional love.  Remember, nowhere does the Bible explicitly identify Satan as an angel, let alone a fallen angel. 

Hi Bersek,

I already see that negative group mindset alive and well in political sphere everywhere...just watch the news...there seems to be an unconscious energy whereby vengeance rules, and  compassion and forgiveness are not  priorities...that's why I was saying...let love conquer it. But we have to conquer it, even the smallest hint of it in ourselves first...I mean, among common everyday people, I read news threads and hear tones of vigilante justice when you see what's going on around the world.....not only war, but .there is  the crime, like the rioting...and then there are the people out to get their pound of flesh for the crime...which I am not convinced makes them any better.. but.that would be up to God to decide. Hard to exercise inner peace these days ...there's lots of stuff in the world to be upset about or scared of....but we have to do it anyway, I believe.

...btw, I believe the negative mindset is coming from people...people allowing evil to dictate their behaviours.  People are capable of generating negative thoughts without a doubt, and cumulatively en masse that can become evil. Something to be aware of in ourselves, not just in our external world.  I have never met a person in my life who has never had a negative thought, even my cute old grandma, so we can't blame aliens. We humans generate enough bad energy as it is, that's why i believe we should focus on the good potential in us to drown it out...then sort of "pay it  forward" ...resist" satan" that way, whatever that is...meaning any tendency to do harm. Love always wins. God wins.