Do we know for sure that he didn't?

All we can go by is how the story is told.  And yet the story is clear that there were women who were part of the close friends.  Maybe they were disciples in fact but the storytellers chose not to name them as such?

(assuming by Disciples you mean the inner circle)

I agree with Gord: the storytellers were men, telling history, not her story.

[quote=crazyheart]

Why do you suppose that Jesus picked these particular people to be disciples? Fishers, lawyer, doctor, (correct me if I have misspoke)

Luke the physician apparently lived near Troas in Western Asia Minor (western Turkey), and was not a disciple

You might add to your list tax collectors and zealots. 

Why didn't he NAME women?

Jesus had many female disciples.  The named ones include Mary Magdalene, Susanna, Joanna the wife of Chuza, Herod's business mamager, Mary the mother of James the Younger and Joses, Salome, the mother of the sons of Zebedee.  Not only did He name women; He depended on their income to finance his ministry (Luke 8:1-3; Mark 15:41).  The only concrete evidence we have for Jesus' financial support are the earnings and contributions of His female disciples!   Probably His wealthiest female disciple was Joanna, the wife of Chuza, Herod's business mamager.  His brave female disciples stayed with Him at the cross, when the cowardly Twelve all abandoned or denied HIm and were the very first witnesses to His Resurrection.  You must remember that Jesus was constantly traveling from town to town and sleeping outside.  There were safety and sexually appropriate reasons for His female disciples to keep themselves separate.   

Was Jesus an Essene? And were they celibate?

It has been suggested the Jesus and/or John the Baptist were Essenes.  The evidence is inconclusive at best

I was just thinking if they were a celibate sect that women wouldn't be around to be made disciples except during their travels.

They could also have been Ebionites or Nazorites, which is just as speculative.

If Jesus and John were indeed unmarried, then hey could have belonged to one of these austere Judaic mystical sects that practiced celibacy. Jesus' famous 40 Days in the Desert allude to him being one of those desert mystics who sought enlightenment through lonely vision quests in the desert.

John the Baptist is described as wearing a camel hair coat. This is typical of Mid-Eastern desert mystics who wore felt coats hand-matted from the hair of camels, goats, or sheep. In the Arabic world, these desert mystics became known as "Sufis" ("woolen ones") from the Arabic "suaf" for "wool."

Thus, both Jesus and John could have been pre-Islamic Sufis.

It is to the great credit of women that no woman wrote any part of the bible.

There is no proof that this is an accurate statement.

Priscilla is a leading candidate as the author of Hebrews.  And the earliest document in the Bible, the Song of the Sea in Exodus 15:1-21), is usually attributed to Miriam. 

I certainly do my best to be complimentary towards women, and my post was to the best of my knowledge.  If Berserk is right, perhaps this compliment is not well-founded.

At the very least, I can congratulate them on not writing much of the bible.

Besides, how much proof is there that the bible makes accurate statements?  It got the names of some places correct.

Another of your endless dumbass screed.  In terms of your bigotry, it might be to their "credit" if they had a choce whether to write or not write Scripture.  But in a patriarchal culture, that choice wuold normally not be available to them.  So no question of credit can be raised.  But as i said, Priscilla is a leading candidate as the author of Hebrews and Miriam as the author of the oldest text in the Bible, the Son of the Sea in Exodus 15:1-21. 

We don't know that.

I love how evidence-based some of you can get when I try to compliment women on not being part of the scam.  As if evidence suddenly becomes important to you.

Last I checked, it wasn't me believing in a baseless triune Godhead and all the craziness that entails.  You're not in a great position to be calling anybody's words a "dumbass screed".

So you're saying that I shouldn't give them credit, because they were prevented from contributing to the bible, rather than chosing not to participate?  You may have a point there.

So, were women prevented from contributing, or not?  And after 2000 years, the best you can do is name two women as "candidates" for authorship of Hebrews and twenty-one verses in Exodus.

crazyheart

Meanwhile, back to the original question.

Did he pick them, or did they just latch onto him?

Did they see something in Jesus not visible to others?  Was it his message?  Or was it as simple as they were the outcasts and they were craving companionship, to belong to something.  I know that there are certainly similar folk in the church who are there because they are a bit odd, but still need to be loved and to think they belong and matter.

IT

Russ

Not to derail but I have great difficulty believing that 12 men would leave their work to follow a man they didn't know or knew very little about.  These men were fishermen whose daily toil fed their familes.  Suddenly they are unemployed...and their families go hungry....or do they still fish part-time.  Not enough detail is given.

My interpretation is that the "call" to the 12 is more symbolic than historical fact.

Why disciples?  Maybe he'd found something just too good to keep it to himself?

And you want to travel with him,

And you want to travel blind,

And you think that you can trust him

'Cause he's touched your perfect body

With his mind.

-from "Suzanne takes you down" by Leonard Cohen

Twelve is the number used for the Apostles but he may have had many others.  We are simply not told.

Shalom

mate

The number 12 has deep meaning, being the product of 3 and 4.

The number 7 is also important since it's the sum of 3 and 4.

3 and 4 are important since they represent the triangular trinity of spiritual forces combined with the four-square forces of materialism.

I seem to remember reading somewhere that Christ had his 3 closest to Him, 12 disciples, 70 true followers and 500 interested.

Not much of a following for a Son of God.

Arm,

I love that song.

When I first heard Leonard sing it - many years ago now - I remember thinking it was beautiful.

And that it was, in some mysterious sense, spiritual. 

If there were women disciples - and I rather think there would be - I can't help feeling that some, if not many, would have seen Jesus in this way.

Yes, PP, if Jesus touched some of his followers, male or female, mystically, spiritually, and emotionally—and I don't doubt that he did—they would have followed him blindly. I certainly would! I can just imagine laying down my tools and following him without a moment's hesitation.

I think that the disciples (at least the first few) knew Jesus prior to his call.  Other thread have speculated on this -  was Jesus part of the movement around John the Baptist?  And weren't some of the other disciples also part of this movement?   According to John's gospel, Andrew certainly was:

" . . . John was standing with two of his disciples . . . they followed Jesus.  . . . One of the two who heard John speak and followed him was Andrew, Simon Peter's brother."    Might the other one have been James or John?  

So they didn't just meet him and follow immediately.  They got to know him, be influenced by him, and choose to follow.  He came to know them, and eventually singled them out.

And did they leave everything?   I don't think so.  I think both fishing and travelling with Jesus might have fitted together quite nicely.   Fishing when the time and the season were right.  Travelling with Jesus when they could or during the off season.  Several times there is mention of Jesus sitting on, or in, a boat - who's boat?  Why one of the fishermen's boats.   Even the post resurrection story at the end of the gospel of John has the disciples going fishing in a boat.  Somebody must have been maintaining their boats - and I think it was them.

Thanks for your explanantion of some of the background, seeler.

Hi crazyheart,

I think that there is a distinction between the Apostles who were chosen by Jesus and many of the other disciples who appeared to do the choosing.

Nothing in the narrative actually says what they were looking for.  The narrative suggests that they were swayed/attracted to Jesus and thus took up his invitation to follow.

We do not know for certain that he didn't.  We do know that according to the narrative there were no women among the 12 that he called.  It appears that there were women among the larger body which followed after him.

Grace and peace to you.

John

I am flagging your post due to the above comment. There's no reason to be anti-ass. Asses are loyal and intelligent animals. Long live the ass!

MorningCalm

And without the ass, there would be a lot fewer songs on the radio!

IT

Russ

Um...okaaay.  But I didn't write that sentence.

Back to the original questions.  Why do we need to know why Jesus picked who he did?  There are many people, including quite a few on WC, who have a strong feeling of having been chosen by Jesus to serve in particular ways.  The invitation usually comes in such a way that the why question is quickly replace by 'What now am I to do?'

Why did they follow?  There are some invitations that are so compelling that saying 'no' does not seem to be an acceptable response.

Speculation can point to people inviting people he perceived as ready to surrender their lives to the service of a greater good.  Looking at the circumstances of the time, we can speculate that life was so desperate, or their pride was so hammered by the Romans and the religious authorities, they would have grasped at any opportunity to change their circumstances.

Now,  regarding women as authors of the Bible, a Jewish scholar wrote a book (The Book of J) arguing that the J part of the Torah was written by a woman in the court of King David, which would make her an important author. 

I regret that some people have an extremely negative view of the Bible.  For me it is a challenging collection of reflections on spiritual, life, and social experiences over thousands of years, a collection that includes diverse points of views.  We have exclusivists wanting a pure Jewish race, and the author of Ruth who argues otherwise.  We have philosophers arguing for a mercantile God (large parts of the Psalms, Proverbs, etc.) and at least one philosopher (the author of Job) who argues the opposite point of view.  We have a God of the Jews, and a God of all peoples (Book of Jonah).  One of the tragedies of Judaism and Christianity is the number of times selective reading of scriptures has been used by people against someone else.  It is almost certain the Bible includes large chunks of material from people of other ancient faiths and cultures, such as Jonah and Job, along with many of the myths.

These particular people represented a cross section of common people. Why Jesus chose those particular people is likely beyond any of us to ever know why.

As far as being swayed or convinced, I think that the disiples were already disciples of the spirit. Jesus must've known this. All students of the spirit seek to serve, it's the natural progression for anyone on the path. 

Good question. We should ask him one day!

My thoughts are more about the number of disiples: the number 12, which is supposed to be number of completion. Which makes sense if you one thinks of this number as being associated with the 12 signs of the zodiac, the completed wheel of the heavens.

Mary, the mother of God herself, is often depicted with a crown of 12 stars, each which must symbolize one of the 12 signs of the zodiac.

In mathematics the number 12 is said to one of only two known sublime numbers, the other one being a number that has 76 decimal digits!

The number 12 is found throughout Abrahamic religions and is also central to our western calendar and units of time.

There are many meanings attributed to this number, such understanding and wisdom. The Tibetan, however, views this number to a number of completion:

Of course we don't know how many Jesus called who didn't answer.  The ones who might have said "Are you crazy?  I've got better things to do."  or the ones like the rich young ruler who turned away sorrowing, torn between his desire to follow Jesus and his love of his home and possessions.  

History doesn't record those who turned their back on the call.  The old testament tells of some who tried to wiggle out but who in the end could not resist - Moses (I am slow of speach), Isaiah (again speach), Jeremiah (I am but a child), and Jonah (who ran off in the opposite direction).     But what if there were others who had been called in each of these cases, who continued to refuse until God cast the net a little wider and found the ones who would and did, and who went down in history as God's prophets or leader or  as Jesus' disciples.

And don't forget Noah. According to Bill Cosby, he didn't immediately jump at the opportunity to serve.