star stuff

No I haven't gotten rid of all my possessions yet.  If, in this modern world, I were to do so then I would have trouble following in his footsteps.  What I choose to do is volunteer in needy situations and my wife and I often do without in order to help the needy, the oppressed and those living in poverty.  We could not do those things if we got rid of everything.  Being visually impaired I would find it difficult to get along on the streets.  But that's life.

Shalom

Mate

star stuff

No I have not gotten rid of all my possessions.  To do so would prevent me from being able to live with a roof over my head.  This allows my wife and myself to volunteer in several areas where needed.  We often do without each month because we are dealling with the oppressed, the sick, the impoverished etc. on a daily basis.  We try to put our money where our mouth is.  In addition being visually impaired is somewhat of a problem when trying to be totally useful.  However, that is life and I don't complain.

I do hope you do the same.

Shalom

Mate

Sorry about the double post.  One looked like it disappeared into cyber space.

Shalom

Mate

Mate, could you clarify if this is a response to my post upthread?  It seems that it might be, but I am not completely sure.   Thanks ... P3

Paradox

Sorry about that.  It was a response to nighthawk.

Shalom

 Mate

nighthawk

Since I do not know you personally I could not possibly say whether you think you have the only way.  I was simply making a comment based on my experiences as a fundamentalist/literalist.  Only you know whether or not you think you have the one and only correct way.

Shalom\

Mate

How do you know that?  Don't you have faith that god will provide for you, as he does for the birds, like he said?  After all, he didn't say, "sell all of your possessions and give to the poor......unless you live in the future".

Oh ye of little faith.  That's great what you do for the needy, I do similar acts, as well as sponsor a child in Peru, but perhaps you could do more with the extra cash you get from the big garage sale.

Why not ask to be healed?  According the bible that you claim to follow, he did that, and said that he would do it for you too. 

This is what I'm getting at:

.

star stuff

I do not believe in a literal reading of the Bible.  I do not claim to follow the Bible.  I follow the master.  Within the church we accept that there are three authorities:  the Bible, the Counsels and common snese.

Did Jesus actually say "whatever you ask in my name I will do." or are they the words of the early church.

Yes I have faith or better translated "trust" in God but I do not believe that S/he, It intervenes in the world on a daily basis.  We are here and we make our way in this world.  We were not promised an easy road of it but we were promised that "He" would see us through our difficulties and that has been my experience.

I do not ask to be healed of my pending blindness but for God to give me strength to face whatever the future holds. If I am healed so much the better and I will give thanks.

Shalom

Mate

I'm a little confused.  First you say:

Then, in your next breath, you say:

Can you appreciate how that makes no sense to me?  BTW, what/who are these "Councels" you've come up with?  Oh, and common sense is one of the biggest misnomers there is.

It doesn't matter. It's in the bible and you said that you accept the bible as an authority.

Then when does this god intervene?  On a weekly basis?  On Sundays?  And how to you determine when this god does intervene when he clearly ignores us all of the time?

Here's an example:

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2009/01/19/brazil_church_collapse_kills_9_injures_96/

star stuff

I see nothing confusing about what I have said.  I do not follow the Bible I follow in the footsteps of one Jesus of Nazareth.  The Bible is a guide.  To make it anything else is to make it an object of worship:  a form of idolatry.  Yes the Bible is one of the authorities.  That does not mean I take it literally or that I believe every word was God breathed.  The Bible is loaded with ancient widom.  There are many valid interpretations to any part of the Bible.  There are many levels of interpretation.

You haven' heard of the counsels.  There have been a few down through the centuries.  The church meets to discuss and come to conclusions about issues.  It was a Counsel that gave us the present canon of scripture.  That was in 375 ce.

Of course I can appreciate how that makes no sense to you.  You lack sufficient knowledge.  Just as I could not presume to make sense of some of the physicists computations.  Just as physicists do not really understand quantum theory. 

When does God intervene?  I have no idea but then I can't describe or define God.  That does not destroy the reality.

He is ignoring us all the time????  Not in my experience.   Now one might say that that is only a subjective experience.  Do we have any other kind?

Shalom

Mate

star stuff

BTW yep, shit happens.

Shalom\

Mate

How do you know then what his "footsteps" are?  Do they come to you in dreams at night?

If it's an authority, but just a guide which you cherry pick from, what you are really saying is that YOU and your interpretation are the authority.

Then it is not an authority!!!  You merely like the parts which align with your preconceived notions.

There is nothing more in the bible than what could have come from a person living at the time. And there is no point in inserting the word "ancient" in there as though that means some higher level of understanding. They were highly ignorant of damn near everything back then.  It is also loaded page after page of barbarism, tribalism, chauvenism, slavery, torture, genocide, murder, cutting open pregnant women etc etc etc.  I guess you count the hits but ignore the misses huh?

Yes, I'm familiar with the Council of Nicaea, under Constantine, and it was in 325, not 375.  That's where a bunch of men with political and religious power got together and decided amoungst themselves what is to be included in this trainwreck called the bible.  Men.  Mere men, with motives, biases, and ignorance.  A deadly mix.

I was merely asking clarification on your (mis-spelled) use of the word council that you suddenly injected, there's no need to be an arrogant prick about it.

Let's just change one word and see how that sounds:

When does astrology intervene?  I have no idea, but then I can't describe or define astrology.  That does not destroy the reality.
 

Hi Star Stuff: That's why Hemmingway shot himself, eh?

Woah, Star Stuff. Chill, man! We are all friends here. I'm a bit concerned about the jaded cynicism I'm reading in your posts and tendency to fall back on the ad hominem arguments. I'm sure we'd all appreciate not running the risk of being refered to as "an arrogant prick", eh? Especially Mate.

I'm really not concerned because you are an atheist, and on the original subject of the thread, I would say I don't care what religion someone follows. I do believe that I judge people based on their actions towards others though, rightly or wrongly.  From your posts I don't see that you are getting a lot of enjoyment out of being here. To me, it sounds like you are venting a lot of hostility. I could easily be wrong because the internet removes all kinds of useful cues like vocal intonation and body language. If I am wrong, I am pleased, because that means you are not nearly so unhappy as you seem to be.

Take care, Star Stuff.

P.S. Personally, I enjoyed the quotes, especially G. K. Chesterton. I'm a bit of a quote collector myself.

I empathize with Star Stuff. The fustration when debating people like Mate, who ignore current realities to be informed by dubious "authorities" is completely understandable.

What scares us all in the atheist camp, is that religous voices often make political choices based on what they believe as opposed to what they observe and understand. And that is a very scary prospect indeed.

Personally, I don't care what religion you are. But please have respect for the bigger picture outside of your personal beliefs.

Star Stuff,"There is nothing more in the bible than what could have come from a person living at the time."

Really? Is there another book that someone says they ARE  the son of God and have stood up to everyone they encounter and not waiver on that point?

Star Stuff " And there is no point in inserting the word "ancient" in there as though that means some higher level of understanding. They were highly ignorant of damn near everything back then." 

You don't know your history then. (why quote the "ancients?" Do you leave Epicurus out of your arguments?

 Star Stuff,"It is also loaded page after page of barbarism, tribalism, chauvenism, slavery, torture, genocide, murder, cutting open pregnant women etc etc etc."

Sounds like our daily newspaper doesn't it?

Star Stuff," I guess you count the hits but ignore the misses huh?"

Talk about calling the kettle black. Did you ignore the parts about forgiveness, mercy, love, understanding, seeking knowledge, etc.......?

Why are you so sure that what drives your decisions is different than mine?  Check out the threads in politics and you will see that we had some fairly diverse opinions on voting in Canada...though most of the posters were fairly liberal.

My sense is that you make your decisions based on some study, weighing of your sources, values and goals (personal/local/national/world/...).

I do too. 

Your values were probably devloped through some combination of nurture/nature including life experience.  So were mine.

I'm not sure why you have this block about Christians? 

Spockis 53,"What scares us all in the atheist camp, is that religous voices often make political choices based on what they believe as opposed to what they observe and understand. And that is a very scary prospect indeed.

:Yes that can be scary, but sometimes the morality of the believer does coincide with the will of the people. And sometimes a non believers choices don't. And vice versa. If it's truly a democacy run by the people then we cannot remove our responsibility as to how government follows through in certain areas. If it's really the will of the people there is no outcry.

Look at the last 8 years of administration south of the border. The bible belt voted as a block successfully swinging the election and getting weekly access to George Bush's Whitehouse. And a couple of hundred thousand muslims died as a byproduct of that political support.

So, sorry. It's time for the Christians to be kicked in the pants for that thoughtless act of thoughtless decision making.

whoa....what happened to logical thinking?   Are you presuming to pronounce a decision on all Christians because of your understanding of a few?  Who even says that I agree with them, or your analysis.  There were many factors which drove the difference in voting between the North & the South..and religion was only one visible part of it.  I can connect you with some bright folks who live in the States, in the north...who would be happy to give you a run for your money on that one!

sorry, spooky..but that is as bad as saying all Muslim's are terrorists, alll Americans are capitalists...all men are rapists...all women are dumb blonds or all dumb blonds are women...

when you are ready to actually use the reason that you profess to have, then please, let's dialogue.

I guess I'll start off by saying I'm agnostic. This is my first post so just for reference I guess. Even though I don't deny the existence of a god I don't subscribe to any one particular faith. I believe it takes a combination of all of them to get an entire grasp on each others ideaolgies. We all want the same things out of life, freedom peace, safety, love, etc. and each sect of religion comes from that persons historical heritage. All religions basically teach the same things, the differences between them are minute and insignificant. If we listened to each others side of thier own story we understand each other better.Each religion has something to teach.So I guess my answer would be no it doesn;t matter what religion you are, just don't think yours is the only answer.

         Jubilee, that was the most intolerant thing I think I ever heard, Thank you for reminding me why I left christianity in the first place.(much love, i hope you can change your thinking.)

I called him an arrogant prick because that is precisely what he was being.  It was not an personal attack, it was an observation.

I'm glad you mentioned that, as I am highly aware of how not being in person limits in a huge way a full understanding of a person.  I am not angry, but what does anger me is intellectual dishonesty and the refusal for christians (or anyone holding supernatural beliefs) to place those beliefs under scrutiny, and just prance away saying: "Nope! God said it, I believe it, that settles it."  What angers me too is when particular claims are shown to be untenable, (a nice way of saying BS), the person still refuses to change their mind.  It's like trying to nail jello to a wall.

Which reminds me of two more quotes:

You can't convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it's based on a deep-seated need to believe. (Carl Sagan)

In science it often happens that scientists say, “You know that's a really good argument; my position is mistaken”, and then they actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again. They really do it, it happens every day. I cannot recall the last time something like that has happened in politics or religion.  (Carl Sagan)

.

star stufrf

Hell I've been called worse.

325 Council (oh did I make a spelling error?  My heavens that's tough.

"367+ Canon of the New Testament slowly collected and confirmed.  Books recognized as authoritative by Athanasius, bishop of Alexandria, in the East and Coucil of Carthage in the west."

"381 Council of ConstantinopleI finalizes the Nicene Creed and condemns heresies about Jesus."  "Christian History Time Line" published by Rose.

I may have been out a few years.  Big deal. 

I did not attack you personally what I attacked was your obvious lack of knowledge of where the church today is heading and what it is thinking.  You have confirmed my  thoughts.

Perhaps you are angry with me because I speak from the "emerging" church perspective and not the 400 year old perspective that far too many think.   Its something that many atheists simply don't know and don't bother to educate themselves on.

As for the authorities I read Dom. Crossan, one of my teachers is the recognized premier Jesus scholar in the world.  Marcus Borg is right there beside him.

To quote another world recognized authority,  Hans Kung p466 "On Being a Christian"

"As we have said, Christianity is not a book religion.  The Scriptures are not themselves divine revelation.  They are merely the human testimonies of divine revelation in which the humanity, independence and historicityof the human authors always remain intact.  I do not believe first in the Scripture or even in its inspiration and then in the truth of the message it provides,  I believe in God who revealed himself in the history of Israel for believers and finally in a liberation message in the person of Jesus, and who is authentically attessted in the Scriptures of the Old and New Testament.  My faith arises from Scripture in the sense that the latter provides me with external evidence in an authentic form of this God of Israel and of Jesus Christ.  But my faith is not based on Scriptures.  It is  not the book as such, but this God himself in Jesus who is the ground of my faith."

This view is supported by many theologians around the world.

I could go on with the history of the Bible as a book but I doubt you care to read it.

The last thing I care about is personal attacks.

And yes I can and do make mistakes.  It seems to be part of the human condition.

Shalom

Mate

Bullshit.  Out of the blue you mentioned something about a "Councel", and because there was absolutely no context (there's all kinds of Councils), and it had a different spelling, I asked you what you were refering to.  Your reply?  Oh, you lack so much knowledge.

Thanks for showing your true colours christian boy.

Do you refer to them as "authorities" because they agree with your existing beliefs?

Well it must be true then!  Ad populum arguement.  Fail.

The thing from that paragraph that you cannot explain is how that miniscule moment in history, and miniscule point geographically, makes any sense whatsoever to support the idea of a deity's devine plan to save all of humanity!
If I have to spell it out for you:  What about the billions of people all over the planet who lived & died prior to and after what amounts to that nano-second in the Palestinian desert?  Or do you not recognise the fact that there were lots of humans elsewhere on the planet?  Please don't tell me that you pin the hopes of their "eternal demise" on this rediculous, nonsensical fairy tale that you have swallowed hook, line and sinker. And by the way, "We'll leave that up to god" is not a coherent or acceptable answer.

 .

Starstuff (& Athiesto)

A quote for you:

"The harmony of natural law, which reveals an intelligence of such superiority that, compared with it, all the systematic thinking and acting of human beings is an utterly insignificant reflection"  (Albert Einstein)

At least some scientists belief that there is an intelligence involved in the universe

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/?pageId=88107 

Here is what Obama said at the National Prayer Breakfast

This is the United Church man. Our values coincide way more with yours than with the warhawks in the states. We're on your side.

And a quote for you:

"It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it." From a letter Einstein wrote in English, dated 24 March 1954.

and another:

"Thus I came...to a deep religiosity, which, however, reached an abrupt end at the age of 12. Through the reading of popular scientific books I soon reached a conviction that much in the stories of the Bible could not be true....Suspicion against every kind of authority grew out of this experience...an attitude which has never left me."  Albert Einstein

and another:

"During the youthful period of mankind's spiritual evolution, human fantasy created gods in man's own image who, by the operations of their will were supposed to determine, or at any rate influence, the phenomenal world... The idea of God in the religions taught at present is a sublimation of that old conception of the gods. Its anthropomorphic character is shown, for instance, by the fact that men appeal to the Divine Being in prayers and plead for the fulfillment of their wishes... In their struggle for the ethical good, teachers of religion must have the stature to give up the doctrine of a personal God, that is, give up that source of fear and hope which in the past placed such vase power in the hands of priests." Albert Einstein, reported in Science, Philosophy and Religion: A Symposium

and another:

From a correspondence between Ensign Guy H. Raner and Albert Einstein in 1945 and 1949. Einstein responds to the accusation that he was converted by a Jesuit priest: "I have never talked to a Jesuit prest in my life. I am astonished by the audacity to tell such lies about me. From the viewpoint of a Jesuit priest I am, of course, and have always been an atheist." "I have repeatedly said that in my opinion the idea of a personal God is a childlike one.You may call me an agnostic, but I do not share the crusading spirit of the professional atheist whose fervor is mostly due to a painful act of liberation from religious indoctrination received in youth." Freethought Today, November 2004

We can play this game all day.

What is religion? A pracitse? A way to follow? just a word?

Whay do you have a religion? To fit in? to belong? to practise? A routine?

Who is Jesus? Just a name? a man from long ago? do you really know him at all?

Religion is religion....Are you born again? It deosn't matter what kind as long as you you have him as your personal savior You can't go to heaven without him for he is the way, the truth and the life, no man comes to God but though Jesus Christ. So if ever you hear on the news that people have disapeared and vanished unexpailned... Then that will prove he was the way.

Hi crazyheart,

Yes and no.

Yes, I care who you are because positive relationships are built on compassion, care, respect and understanding.  Knowing who you are helps with all of that.

No, I don't care because your value is not based on who you are but what you bring to the table.

Where you worship doesn't hinder me from attending where I worship so if it makes a difference it would be slight.

Affect me?  Not really.  Although it sort of is a variation on the first question isn't it?  Who you are matters if relationship is going to happen.

Can't live without any of the above.  Even if we did take everything we have now that fits into those categories and we burnt it all to a crisp how long do you think it would take before we replaced all of that?  Some of it wouldn't be all that new either.

And even if we don't pitch all of that stuff out is there nothing common in all of that that we cannot work with?

See what I mean?  You want to throw all of that stuff out and then you start your new world with this which is hardly new and quite plainly lifted up in most of what you wanted done away with.

Who says that all of this is time wasted?  Go back to the first question and answer and the building of relationship.  Would none of this be important to any of that?

Grace and peace to you.

John

Ahh, finally someone who is true to the bible.

Sadly, your arguement is based on fear and fear alone.

Fail.

Ahhhhh...I haven't really had a good day unless someone tells me I'm going to hell.

Cheers.

star stuff

As I said I was commenting on the fact that you were not up to date with modern Christian thought.  It was not out of the blue.  I was asked about the authorities in the church.

For someone who is an antheist then why are you so concerned about what view I take of the Bible.?

As far as what I say and do I definitely don't go about  calling names.

As far as the tragediesies around the world go I do react and do what I can to help out.

Incidentally I came to my position long before I had read any of those scholars and it was indeed very refreshing to find dozens of scholars  who think as I do.

Blessings and peace.

Mate

star stuff.

i wouldn't say that person is true to the bible.

they may be true to their interpretation.

So the Council of Nicea comes from modern christian thought?!?!?!?

Please stop squirming.

star stuff

Its definitely not me that is squirming.

And no there has been more then one council and all are considered.

Anyway rant on.

Shalpom

Mate

 A little perspective for everyone. Enjoy and no offense intended. It really is funny.  

I am a Christian, but I am 'non-religious'.   I can laugh, enjoy life, feel free, without reducing my faith to a set of do's and don't's.  (I can laugh at myself, and I can laugh even at each one of you).  For example, if I LOVE my neighbour, I will do nothing to wilfully hurt my neighbour.  If I LOVE God, I will not seek blindly after material goods beyond what I need for life.  The possession of material goods is not, in itself, bad.  Motivation and means become the operant actions.  I have been exposed to many religious (especially in this forum):  atheism, secularism, humanism (both secular and religious), agnosticism, etc.  All I am saying, is Give Love a Chance (with apologies to John Lennon).   

 I too am a Christian but am not above a little irreverent humor.

trishcuit, I laughed

What about we Pagans? Do we also worshipt the "one true God"? Or do we worship "false Gods"?

Just getting a handle on whether you're exclusivist or universalist, or maybe somewhere in between...

Thank you for your concern, but God tells me I am going to heaven anyways, so I have no need for your Jesus. I don't have a problem getting to God. God never leaves me.

"You'll see" has never been a particularly good debating ploy. People have been using the "any day now, you'll be sorry" excuse for 2000 years, and so far, no second coming. You can only threaten us with the second coming for so long before people figure out thaat it's an empty threat.

Please don't tell me you just gave nighthawk a verbal spanking for having a "hauty self-awarded position" To quote a wise philosopher on this site, "that's too funny, son." 

I hope the glass house you live in is bullet proof because you are tossing some very large stones in there star stuff.

Sorry Star Stuff.

CF and i don't agree on a lot of things, but I have to go with him on this one. You're not giving Atheism a very good face right now.

You're coming across just as judgemental and unthinking as the straw man image you've set up for Christianity.

One thing in Star Dust's defence - at least he isn't a drive-by. He's been sticking around for the debate...cms

This is true.

Hello Mate

How do you know this?

Jazzman

 Crazyheart, 

Thank you. I am glad SOMEONE got to enjoy some levity in this.

cjms

LOL...again your post speaks about Star Dust!

It should be Star Stuff altho' people know who you mean. Three people have mixed  up the names so far.

So who is more offened by that mix-up? stardust or Star Stuff?