Well, I'm a UU, so by definition it doesn't matter to me what faith path you follow. Our first principle: respect the inherent worth and dignity of all persons. Likewise, and by extension, it doesn't matter to me where you go. My only proviso: respect my inherent worth and dignity and extend to me the same freedom of conscience that I'm extending to you.

As for you last paragraph, which is really another question, I think RevJohn is on the right path here. It's not that we need to throw them out, but instead that we need to recognize that these are simply guides to the Truth rather than the Truth. The Truth, at least an important part of it, is found in your line about living in Agape Love. The debates are part of how we seek the Truth found in these guides and are valuable, but only if ALL involved are open to a free discussion instead of pushing agendas with no intention of opening up to what others are saying.

Hi Mendalla, 

A few years ago, my family and I did some exploration of Unitarianism.  In the end, we decided to remain in the United Church, but it was time well spent.  I have noticed in some of your posts that you have expressed interest in the United Church.  Are you considering making a switch?  (I hope you don't mind me asking!)

Some people have told us here on wondercafe that they found UU too intellectually focused.  I didn't pick that up in my visits, but of course members and visitors to any church have different perspectives. 

Interested in your comments ... P3

Oops - sorry Stardust . Yes; I was referring to Star Stuff...cms

Well, it is Saturday morning and there are not too many posters that care what religion, I am, or what place of worship I go to. So if that is the case why do we get in such a twirl about Religion and Faith? What is it about talking about Religion, or Non- religious gets the hair up on the back of our necks and we all seem to come out swinging? What do you think the reason is?

Not right now, but my wife isn't happy with the situation at my UU church so wants somewhere else to go. The UCC we go to is very much on the progressive Christianity end of the spectrum, so I can handle going there even if it isn't my ideal.

Oh, we can be overly intellectual at times, especially the humanist segment. I try to hit the balance myself when I'm at the front (e.g. a sermon on spirituality and astronomy that was one of the first times I actually talked directly about panentheism in my church), but we have a regular speaker from the humanist side of UU'ism and his sermons, as much as I like them, are more like talks or lectures. It comes down to each congregation and even each individual worship leader as to what the tone is going to be. One of the real joys of having principles and sources instead of a set theology.

Really? Well *shrugs* okay then... you're going to hell.

Have a nice day.

What threat??? The second coming is something to be eagerly expected.

The "hairs stand up"  because there is an increasing sense of danger. Religion and Faith are very poor foundations for practical decision making. Why is it sooooo difficult for people of faith to undersand this?

Actually the values that my church holds up as being worthy are very good foundations for decision making. We focus on love, compassion, integrety, honesty, justice, dignity, care for our environment, etc...cms

I appreciate that. 

But what is your opinion about faith-based decision making?

I belong to nearly all planetary religions, and I am an atheist as well, so I don't care what anyone's B.S. (Belief System) is.

So you don't care what anyone's belief system is?

When you are making a choice to empower someone who will perform actionable decision making on your behalf, don't you want to know what they believe, even a little bit?

Inform us. Why do you think religion and faith are what you say?

Define faith-based decision making, spock. If you mean, "making decisions about political/social issues based on literal interpretation of prophecies in the Bible/Qu'ran/religious text of choice", I don't think most people here would support that (other than some of the evangelicals). If you mean "making decisions based on communal values such as those cjms mentions which are derived from our religious understanding of existence", then yes, many of us probably do make some faith-based decisions. Even those like me who are not practicing Christians.

Atheisto

I come to bring you bad news. You won't spend eternity in hell (sorry about that)  because it seems the word "eternity" as defined in the NT doesn't mean forever .....lol...teasing you!

I'm O.K. You're O.K................ chuckle! 

P.S. There is a belief among the older orthodox Jews that everyone suffers in a kind of purgatory for one year after death. They say many prayers for the soul of the dead for the first year, It must be where the Catholics got their idea of purgatory .

Hi Spockis53. I am frightened by people making political decisions based upon a 1st century understanding of the world. People like Bush (either incarnation) or Palin scare me with their escatological theologies. Does that help?...cms

Faith-based decision making is exactly that; making decisions based on faith, as opposed to making decisions informed by gathering objective information. 

Look, I am not so concerned about thoughtful, articulate people such as yourself making stupid decisions. But when you get a cross section of the population into a 'church' or in front of a tv screen on a Sunday morning, the interpretations offered up are taken on faith. That is dangerous. And it happens all   the   time.

Hi jubilee:

I didn't actually write that. Spockis did, and I qouted it in a reply to him, but my reply got got lost, and spockis' quote appeared as mine.

Anyway, I was going to ask spockis what he thought the foundation for practical descison making should be? Logic?

In a reply to spockis yesterday, on a different thread, I said to him that I believe the universe to be in an ultimate state of synthesis, which can only be intuited or experienced in the direct, unconceptualized experience.

The direct or intuitive experience then becomes the foundation for our logical thinking, and the intuition-based logic the foundation for our practical decision making.

If intuition or direct experience is regarded as spiritual, then this would constitute a union between intuition and reason, sprituality and rationality.

Yes, that is encouraging. But I remain concerned about the power religions in general have over the larger cross section of the populations they influence.

Facts should determine decision making. Faith should temper it. When you mix up the two is when you run into problems.

Hi spockis:

Of course I care; a lot! Allow me to explain:

I think cultural evolution is similar to natural evolution: a continuous progression up the evolutionary ladder. But, in cultural evolution as in natural evolution, past stages do not get left behind but are incorporated and carried forward into the next stage: development through envelopment.

Scientism and rationalism are as much a stage of cultural evolution as the religious traditionalism that preceeded it. But rationalist scientism may not be the ultimate stage, and cultural evolution may progress forward to an integral stage that integrates all previous stages and, at the same time, is wide open to further evolution, and is an active and creative co-evolver in that process.

I fancy myself on that stage. Thus, I internalize all previous stages, take the best of each, and disregard the disasterous aspect of each, which is absolute self-righteousness and disdain for other stages, and actively and creatively co-evolve human culture ever forward and upward.

But then spockis53 we believe in democracy and if a larger percentage of voters support faith-based decision making that's what we get. I agree; it certainly can be bad news!...cms

You give me hope, Witch.

...and, if that happens, welcome back to the dark ages.

Arminius,

I've read several of your post regarding 'evolution'. There is a basic mistake you keep on making about evolutionary biology and with Darwin's birthday coming up it might be a good time to clarify.

1) Evolution does not progress; it is simply change in order to adapt to a changing environment. There is no "progress up the ladder".

2) Past stages are not "incorporated"; genes that were viable in the past are lost as circumstances make them inviable.

3) There is no "ultimate stage" that evolution is moving toward. We were not 'less' evolved in the past and we won't be 'more' evolved on the future.

I'm pretty sure that's the way science sees it. And as you want to invoke science, accuracy is important.

But back to my original question... Don't you want to know the belief system of a person you are empoweing to make decsions on your behalf?  I could not find any mention of that in your response.

Oh yes, spockis, I answered it. I know most belief systems fairly well—except yours. Thanks for informing me.