Gordw said:

from your opening sermon

In the end God does not demand that we worship in any specific way (I am not entirely sure God "demands" that we worship at all

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John 4:24 : God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth."

God does demand IF we worship that we do so  in a specific way, but not of form but of Spirit, if our hearts are not honest and sincere before Him, we are worshiping in form (religion), and in vein .

God does not demand our worship, but if were desiring to do so, God teaches us how, IN SPIRIT AND IN TRUTH.

I think that if we find that worship is somehow getting in the way of doing good in the world, then maybe we need to look at worship differently. Yes, in the most formal, traditional sense, worship is the ceremonial part of religion. However, can we redefine worship to include acts of social justice and peace? Why not? If we accept Jesus' teaching in Matthew 25:40 (“Truly I tell you, just as you did it to one of the least of these who are members of my family, you did it to me.”), does it not follow that we are, in a sense, honouring and praising the Divine through these kinds of acts. If we see worship in this way, we can make our work in the broader world part of our worship of God rather than something else we do. And bb's comment about worshipping in spirit and in truth applies here, too. If we are doing these deeds to honour the Divine in those we help, then doing so in spirit and in truth is just as important as it is in ceremonial worship. First thoughts, but it is something I've seen discussed in a UU context before.

Mendalla

GordW said: 

When we let out religiosity get in the way of caring for the weak and vulnerable in our society then I believe that God hates our religion.  When we allow ourselves to believe that the most we can do to spread God's love is attend worship faithfully the God hates our worship.  When we let ritual and decency and propriety consume our energy and have nothing left for Kingdom-building then we have missed the point.

Neo says: 

I totally agree with what you have said Gord. And if you've found a church that grounds you in this behaviour then all the better.

Hi GordW,

Well, why couldn't it be both?

Not at the same time obviously.

What was ancient Israel's issue?  It wasn't getting the liturgy wrong.  It appears that their orthodoxy didn't have an orthopraxis which matched.  Why else would God, through Isaiah, refer to Judah and Jerusalem as Sodom and Gomorrah?

V13.   raises the issue of meaningless sacrifices.

Are they devoid of  meaning as they were established or has meaning evaporated from them as they were practiced?

God loves a cheerful giver.  How does God feel when what is offered is given grudgingly?

What happens in our worship?  Do we praise God on Sunday morning and spend the rest of the week ignoring God's instruction on how we are to treat our neighbours?

Does our orthodoxy give rise to a suitable orthopraxy or do we say one thing with our lips and say another thing in our heart?

A question which bears some reflection upon from time to time.

Grace and peace to you.

John

Hi,

I never can say as much as the guys above. I'm simply not that kind of guy. I think it depends. It definitely is in the way when you think about those Mcchurches that seem to spend more money on the worship service and the church building than spreading God's word.

And then there was this story about this Pharisian (I think it was a Pharisian). YOu know the guy who prayed loudly adn thanked God that he wasn't like the other sinners (I think it said sinners, but I don't know).

Thanks Gord... I appreciated your thinking on topic, and the opportunity to engage that thinking in conversation.

I call to mind Abraham saying to Sarah one day, "The boy and I are going up to the mountain so we can worship God." This worship of God is to consist in the offering of the boy as a sign of fidelity to the will and purpose of God above all other considerations.

How do we worship in Spirit and Truth? I suspect when our worship is animated by the Holy Spirit. With this in view we may look to Jesus in the synagogue outlining the prophetic program he finds in Isaiah. It seems within bounds to suggest that worship consists in doing the word of God that beckons along the way. As some of us sing in doxological praise: "Worship and Work must be One."

This said, I am well aware of the gifts of grace given to sustain us as we enact the word of God as mission. In the celebration of poem, graphic art, music and drama we find restoration for the soul. Further, this liturgical enterprise communicates the foundational narratives of the tradition we inhabit and by which our way in the world is constructed. The gospel provides the basic substance of our faith as we gather together to celebrate its presence and influence.

Our dilemma consists in the failure of integrity. What we say and sing in church is not what we carry out into our homes, neighbourhoods and cities. There we live by the standards of possessive individualism, which is hostile to the interests and purposes of our gospel. Folk familiar with the ancient ways know well this represents a perennial challenge and opportunity.

I believe that the Bible states that "God inhabits the praises of His people." & that "God desires worshippers who will worship Him in spirit & truth."

Thank you for pointing that out, although I find it strange that the "THIS way or Hell" crowd never seems to "get" that Jesus was talking about them.

I have in mind some small band of followers in the hands of ruthless persons. They are bound hand and foot to a stake piled round with kindling. As indictments are read and authorizations articulated, the small band is bowed in prayer. When the official match is struck the prayer turns to praise. As did Stephen, these turn their eyes to behold the saving grace of  God on high. Truly God inhabits such praise.

I cannot affirm as easily the endless repetitions of praise and worship given by some as the foundation of God's appearing in history. Those who emotionally immerse themselves in the atmospheres of enthusiasm and exhibitionism, ostensibly invoking the name above all names, leave me quite cold. Specially when I observe them at work over the heaping platters of their after church lunches at Smitty's or the Pancake House. To day nothing of their dollars spent serving the economies of hedonism.

Seems to me we will want to watch for the strange leaven at work in much of Christendom these sad days. Doing so may equip us for our desired worship in spirit and in truth. For we do not pretend to have obtained the goal or the prize.

seems to me your are judging the external without being able to see the internal of ones praise and worship to Jesus. 

This is very similar to the editorial (provided by Rev. Erin Sterling) for Connex in September (coming up!).  The gist of her article is that there is time for talk, and time for action, and discerning what to do when is the way to decide the "one thing" (talk vs. action?) to do.  Actually, I don't do it justice. Read your Connex at the end of September! (for non-members:it's available to read online at : http://www.united-church.ca/communications/newsletters/connex

Judgement belongs only with God. I observe the external and discern the internal. What I appreciate is integrity, where what is said is equal to what is done. I am aware of my own limit and so appreciate if what is done even approximates what is said. It is the flat out contradiction of speech by action that stands problematic for me. For example: the spirit of possessive individualism that leavens the evangelical lump with its pernicious influence.

Surely the book of Acts has something to say concerning our identity and function?

I  fail to see why this cancer is limited to the "evangelical lump"

I think the usefulness of worship entirely depends on what is done with it. For myself, I honestly feel like I am a better person for going to church. I am the queen of good intentions when it comes to helping this world, in terms of charitable giving, volunteering, stewardship of almost any kind; I believe in all of it, but often find myself too busy, too broke, too distracted to follow through. Yet when I go to church, I do not go without my offering, for example, which I might not provide any other charitable organization without going; when I see in the announcements that there are donations to be made or volunteer opportunities to be filled, they are right under my nose and I am inclined to fill them, where I might not go searching through my daily paper or bulletin boards at my community centre. Even when such things are not so immediately and obviously present to make things easier for goodhearted but busy procrastinating types like me, it serves as a reminder every time I walk into and out of that building that worship should not end there, but be taken out into the world and lived - something that can be forgotten if time is not made for church.

That is not to say, however, that there aren't some who can almost feel they've done something just by going to church, saying a lovely prayer and singing some lovely songs, and not feel as inclined to live that worship outside of that hour a week. I think it is incumbent on clergy to provide as inspiring and creative a worship service as possible, but it is also up to the congregants to take that message and be open to being inspired, and spurred to action.

This might have missed the point - I have to admit I haven't taken the chance yet to read Gord's full thoughts - but just based on what I've read here, I think worship only gets in the way of living a Christian life if we as Christians let it.

"Our dilemma consists in the failure of integrity. What we say and sing in church is not what we carry out into our homes, neighbourhoods and cities. There we live by the standards of possessive individualism, which is hostile to the interests and purposes of our gospel. Folk familiar with the ancient ways know well this represents a perennial challenge and opportunity."

"For example: the spirit of possessive individualism that leavens the evangelical lump with its pernicious influence."

Quite right. I speak of the evangelical responsibility as an evangelical aware of my own complicity. While the second quote above does not make my position explicit, it is informed by the first quote in which I make it clear that it is "our" and "we" that I am concerned with - not some other.

Isn't worship about strengthening our individual and collective relationships with God and each other?  Doesn't such worship automatically include our relationships with all those, (people) and that (creation) loved by God?  IF worship is God-centered ( as compared to institutional-centered or doctrine-centered or leader-centered), how can it be an obstacle to walking humbly with God, seeking justice, and living generously and mercifully?

 In the parable of the Pharisee and the publican (Luke 18:9-14), the pharisee went to tell God how good he was, not like other men, not like the publican, his 'good' behaviour.  The publican, on the other hand, stood back and said "Be merciful to me, the sinner."  Attitude is the key.  I've attended services in which the choir wanted to be praised by everyone (even though they couldn't sing), the minister was equally egotistical, and humbleness wasn't part of their church culture.  I attended a church in my teens in which they had a woman minister (back in the 60's) and the teens would call her gross names to her face, with their parents approval, people would criticize her during the service (whisper, whisper, buzz, buzz).  The poor lady was so flustered one Sunday, she'd forgotten the offering, so we had it after the benediction.  The tongues wagged over that incident.  I can't speak for God, but I'm sure he wasn't delighted with that scenario.  Perhaps we need a sign at the church entrance, "Hey, Dude, drop the 'tude, don't be rude, we're here to worship God.'  Okay, maybe it wouldn't fly, but people need to cop the right 'tude when they come to worship.

What does God need from worshipers and why did He not need it in the beginning and wait so long to create, LOL, us.

Regards

DL 

as an evangelical myself, i still fail to see why one would single out a certain denomination out appose to just commenting on the human condition (sin) , The church needs to drop barriers, denominations and institutions and be what they are called out to be, the called out ones with the human condition being supressed daily under grace.

BB - GeoFee, I believe, is refering to "evangelical" in the generic sense (of "being enthusiastic for the cause"; the origin of the word coming from "bringing good news"). One can find evangelicals in any and all denominations, so he does not appear (as you indicate) to be singling out any particular denomination. Possibly a poor choice of words on his part for this audience, that's all.

ha ok, thanks for clearing it up

GIA said "What does God need from worshipers"

 Answer: God needs worshippers to be working on "right relationships" with each other. Without developing such relationships with each other, we cannot develop a right relationship with God (an extension of Christ's dictum that "what you have done to the least of these you have done unto me" - and who are we to say who is the least? So it applies to all those we meet). So the real "glory to God" in worship comes from a change in our attitude, whereby to honour God we undertake to heal our broken relationships.

GIA said " why did He not need it in the beginning and wait so long to create, LOL, us."

Answer: because God works through evolution and that takes time, just as God is waiting for God's process to create those that come after us.

My contribution: lorenz.seboldt.net/music-downloaded/MontyP/MontyP%20All%20Things%20Dull%20and%20Ugly.mp3

In other words, human nature, EGO, is and always has been, stronger than piety.  I think this is a basic truth, proven over and over and over by history.

Faith without deeds is useless.

As-salaamu alaikum

-Omni

You can state it more plainly than that:

Faith without deeds is useless.

It's the deeds that are important.  Faith is superfluous.

In your opinion.

But you plainly don't need faith to do good deeds.

No, but it is a motivator for some people and that's what it takes for them to do good, then so be it.

I could also answer that you don't need faith in God (or other supernatural forces) but in some cases you do need faith that your good deeds really will have some impact, esp. when the deed is one whose impact is longer term so that you may not see the results right away (or possibly even at all).

Mendalla

I have faith in human goodness chansen, is that useless?

As-salaamu alaikum

-Omni