Hi crazyheart,

If truthfulness matters than all of the above matter.

They matter as claims which can be explored and investigated until truth is found.

If they are held as unassailable truths which must not be questioned they aren't really interested in truth so much as controlling it.

Grace and peace to you.

John

yes and no - yes there are certain defining beliefs that underpin our values - but those beliefs are mutable and never seen as orthodox - what is crucial is orthopraxis and faith has something to do with that.

Theological reflection on the story gets us to core issues beginning with the God/world relationship - what does that mean and how does a faith in a loving God energize us?

Then we get to second level doctrines like the virgin birth - concepts that tell us about the God/world relationship - incarnation is the theology behind the myth.

So all the concepts are important to be reflected upon - not to give a definative answer but some answer - like incarnation is spoken of in God in Jesus and then there is a secondary doctrine of Jesus as God's son, not to be taken as definative but to theologically explored for what that metaphor is saying about the God/world relationship.

Yes some reflection on the concepts is important to indicate what group informs one - to claim to be a christian has some outline thoughts and if one rejects them all then are you out of the club?  Not to say the person who does not believe in the guidelins is bad or sinful or going to hell, but they belong to another community and the judgement on all communities is does it lead to abundant life for all of life?  For the common good.

If the Chrismas story is mythology and metaphor, then it does not matter.

If it is historical truth, then it does.

And if it is a little bit of both, then it matters a little bit.

Armi, at first glance I thought you had it in a nutshell--but Pan is right, too, just takes longer to read Pan's post. 

If it's a myth, it still matters, because the myth carries the truth meant to be conveyed--which is not historical fact, but a statement of faith.  If the myth says Jesus was born of a virgin, that means to me that he was so special to the people who experienced him that they could scarcely express his specialness, but this is one way, in this story.  If a lover says to one beloved, "You are the most  beautiful person in the world, and the most important person in the world to me" that's not a historical, factual statement.  But it sure as hell matters to the beloved one!

blessings, weeze

So true, weeze

Hi weeze:

To me, the metaphorical meaning of the Christmas story is far more profound than the literal one. The literal interpretation appears unlikely and slightly ridiculous; the metaphorical interpretation points to a deep, profound and universal spiritual truth: the birth or re-birth of the inner Christ, or Christ Consciousness.

Christ Consciousness, of course, is the same as Buddha Consciousness or Unitive Consciousness or Nirvana or Enlightenment.

The birth of Christ, however, is not the only meaningful metaphor of the Christmas story. There is also the annunciation, the virginal aspect of the conception and birth, the place and cricumstances of the birth, the angels, the three Wise Kings, and others.

Apart from the Easter story, the Christmas story is my favourite Christian story. I celebrate it with all my heart!

Me too, Armi, and I'm sad for those who reject it out of hand without daring to examine it for the beauty and joy it offers. 

Interesting questions.

It doesn't particularly matter to me on a personal level.  I assume all of the above are false, because there has been no good reason put forward to believe that they are true.  But if by some fantastic coincidence any of the above are true, it still wouldn't change me.  I have no need to worship a god, and if the crazy stories are true and commandments were actually made, I would have a hard time following through with the requisite level of reverence for God, because I don't respect the god of the bible.  Plus, I don't feel the need to bow down and worship anything.

At the local and national level, I think the validity of the claims of religion are very important.  If religions want to weigh in on public matters, then the truth matters a lot.  If their entire point of view is based around a series of ancient lies, which they seem to be, then religion should have no influence outside it's circle of believers.

What matters is that we let go of the need for it to matter.

Whether atheist, who need it to matter so they can prove it a "lie" and therefore validate their worldview, or literalist, who need it to matter so they prove it "true" and therefore validate theirs, its the need for it to matter that is the obstacle to agapé  (oh, btw Pilgrim -he said in his best John WAyne drawl - hold down the ALT key and type 130 on the number pad to get "é".)

Does it matter if Mary was a virgin?

Absolutely not, since it has since been proven academically that the language the gospels were originally written in, use the same words for 'virgin' and 'young woman'. This, much like the assumption that Mary Magdalene was a woman of ill repute and not a very wealthy aristocrat and sponsor f Jesus' Ministry, is a trick of language which I feel has become all too set in the more rigid quarters of our faith.

Does it matter if the Christ story differs for different people?

Again, no. The actual, canonical Christ stories differ from one another in chronology and in some actual, factual storytelling (how could Christ be born both in a cave, and in a makeshift barn?); I think a general belief in the message of Christ is a requirement, simply as a definitive central tenet of any Christianity; but short of that, I do not consider anyone 'less of' a Christian for believing in a different Christ than I do. In fact I question the soundness of the Christian learning done by those who are unwilling to debate and hear other viewpoints, and judge others for differences in understanding.

Does it matter if people believe in a physical, spiritual ressurrection or no ressurection at all?

I'm taking the easy way out here and pleading the 5th as this is probably the stickiest one in this list. This is probably my own personal biggest grappling point as a Christian, as I disbelieve in ressurection as a general concept, but also believe God can certainly overcome his own rules and the limitations he himself has set. What I will say is; whatever the ressurection turns out to be, literal or metaphorical, it is a powerful story of what the Christ-light in all of us can help us accomplish.

Does it matter if Jesus is Son of God or God's presence in the world?

I misunderstand this question - is this asking about two different understandings ('Jesus as God's son' vs. 'Jesus as God himself'), or about the same understanding phrased in a couple of different ways, and whether or not it is true? Either way I will say THIS matters; perhaps not in the literal 'he begat Jesus' kind of way, but in the sense of if Jesus is not held as special, and representative of what the Holy desires of us, again, why do we call ourselves Christians?

If it matters, why?

As you can see above, I think some of this matters and some does not; I DO think it all matters from the point of view that these are the things which tear us apart as Christians, when they are supposed to bring us together, so obviously they matter *too us*. I do however think a lot of the opinion differential and the 'matter' is artificial, however, and not divine.

I think very little, if anything, matters in the greater sceme of things. All we are is dust in the wind.

Interesting! It has been said above that it wouldn't matter if the proposition was put as a myth. That however is not the case! Christianity, as it is still presented in most denominations and congregations to this day makes it the foundation of the Fall-Redemption paradigm. 

The Fall-Redemption paradigm insists that one couple (Adam and Eve) was created "Good and Sinless", disobeyed a specific command of God and "Fell" from grace. Consequence? As of that moment sin entered the scene and the cozy relationship God-Humanity was destroyed. Could it be restored? Yes, at a price, a price humanity couldn't bring up. God in His grace and love for humanity however sent his son to pay the price for the human race.- (John 3-16) From that day onward Western society has lived in the knowledge that the human being (all of them according to the NT) is sinful and beyond salvation unless certain formulas are repeated and sincerely believed prior to death. 

In my opinion this is an erroneous understanding of Reality and should be corrected. Is that possible? Easily! How?

Many, if not most of us, have children. While the child is growing up it is told the myth about the good man Santa Claus who comes around once a year and distributes presents to deserving children. The children, as a rule, are rather intimidated and are apprehensive about meeting this good man face to face --- till --- they walk about in the shopping mall and see 3, 4 or more Santa's at work. This may go on for a number of years till they come to the conclusion that all this is very exciting, but only a game.

That is the moment we have to start weaning our children of their old beliefs. Keep them in awe about the Reality of the Creation story till such time as the child figues out that is very exciting but just a game. Not later than the age of 10 they should have figured out that they are taking part in a charade and that Reality is different. With the dawning of that understanding the real education of the child starts.

Take it from there folks!

Till the child starts digging for answers, feed them porridge. Afterwards start feeding them solid meals, stuff he can grow with. The least this will accomplish is that children, growing up, are maturing into well educted adults. There will be mysteries galore to wrestle with as they move through life.

Shalom.

well, if you believe that the central message of Jesus was "my mother was a virgin and yours wasn't", and that this is why he preached and died, then it is terribly important. I don't think that was his message.

Is the mind of love the only thing bor of a virgin? Isn't that Light?

If nothing cares and you met a person in a dark alle without any ideals ... like pathe-logical and no thoughts beyond himself; how would you feel? Confortable with that! The there is the psycho-pathe ... only suffering from desires without thought! Would youlike to meet this person in a dark Mir of that alley?

Ah the beauty of a balanced mind of lovein thought in a monolithic realm ... sounds like a good story ... Beautyful Mind? Would they lock up such a person until they began to examine what he really was saying? Isn't that prizmatic for bringout the whole spectrum against him for going against the moral flow? If we could only understand our Gods/ideals would the situation improve. Sound's almost bi-ble-K'aL like the water's a Ba'bellon ... the words required to describe infinite ... a God that Roman types hated as they knew they couln't control such a thing as a mortal enemy. Would an authority use deception here to change the image? God what a bunch of grape when busted open ... a' gape'ease so they could see in the end? Some would call it flawed ... requiring a pathologist to find what is wrong before redemption of the dam'd thing-heh. Keep the shimmering ones? Ain't that Gaul'd thought ... like Gael-IC Light requiring those three beneficaial traits in proper social order you know fraternity, equity and all that knowledge stuffing in a small point of space ... mote in God's eye? Isn't that a funny expression like .. acronym for phoe-Ton ... Light messanger in a swirl ... helliotrope? It's hard to shove a light string in a hard hole, pi'n mine'd head, sown shut like a Wahl Nut as pseudonym!

I think the answers are not easy. I certainly know that for many it does matter and I cannot and should not answer for them.

Each question, for myself,  can be answered "not to me" and yet I am also aware that I have to say "very much matters to me" also. It matters not to me and my beliefs, yet it matters tremendously to me that we keep repeating the same language and wondering why people hear what they hear. We keep saying the same stuff and they keep hearing the same stuff. It matters to me, how people interpret that or how do we expect they get from there to there or even if where they are does nto matter, how do they even know where we are....?

As far as a quest for "truth", I would hope that all could one day agree that "truth" on some things just won't be found. I would hope one day we can say "I believe" or "we do" as "educated guesses" or "majority reached conclusion" or something else... The quest for "truth" and agreeing on or demanding what "truth" should be, not IS- but should be or will be, has blotched, scarred, checkered and blackened our past and will our future....

I think the virginal conception is a powerful metaphor, alluding to the conception of the "Christ within," which, after a due time of gestation, wil lead to the birth of the inner Christ.

I just had a grand conversation with a man that condemns free thought. Perhaps he feels this way as the significant other thoughts are a pain in the as-is for his determined wills (gods if you wish).

The funny thing was that he closed with a thought (feeling, intuitive reaction, whatever) that life was for learning, it it seemed that this was one-sided ... leaving the impression that he was the significant other when the truth is that the significant other is a vast field of array ... a spectrum when passed through the Gem (jinn) we call mind ... an emoitvational ghost the germans call geist! We could go a long way with that one in passing through Wahls. Is word epressed a funny thing? Then the book says that god is word; is god funny or just travels with an ode sense of humour ... that leaves us feeling we're missing something? Cosmological sniggers, or is that snickers where 'c' and 'g' are interchangable when going from Cyrillic to German and to English stirs of the mental chaos. Something will comb out of the Heiry Maas! WiiBytes?

Namaste Arminius, Namaste.

As-salaamu alaikum, Eid Mubarak!

-Omni

I think that it matters. 

As an example of why, I have met quite a few schizophrenic people (well, maybe seven or eight) who were brought up in a Christian environment or who have converted to Christianity at some point in their youth. (I'm sure that any religion would apply but in my case I have only witnessed conversion into Christianity as I myself belonged to the Christian faith once upon a time).  I have also known a few (3, i think) schizophrenics who didn't believe in God at all.  The point is that the religious ones were more dangerous to others, they would get violent and one of them attacked one of my friends.  Somehow he seemed to think it was God's will.  I'm sure everyone is capable of violence, whether mentally ill or not, religious or not, but I think that there is a greater chance for evil doing when you can cloak it under "God's will". 

So yes, in my opinion it does matter. 

Your example is missing the point - yes ideology can be dangerous.  However, your illustrations are not to the point you wish to make.  Schizophnenics are mentally ill and can be dangerous without a belief system or not dangerous when they are undercare, with or without a belief system.  One and only one of the manifesttion is hearing voices and that can be a projection that it is a voice of God.  It comes with the illness. 

If you want to make the point that religion is dangerous show with other empirical data.

Pan,

It works two ways: psycho pathe' ... or pathe' logical singularities. Without balance the person involved becomes Ire'd without thought, or the alternate ... thinking without a care. Now in a word that worships monotheistic ideals ... where does this lead?

Consider God and J'sous as simple as black and white (initiation of Jinn Ass-ist) ... is the balance a bit of enlivened grey manna ... bread fruit of the tri we call mankind ... a sort of hybr-id of physical and metaphysically Os-eM alchemieis (powerful means of relating in old tongues) requires a gross Love ... infinite Go'de? ID's the primary driving force for the machinations of Cos-Mos (alternate meu's, or Moses, small things in quantum string theory). Isolated peoples (eM, paradigm just haven't got IT yet to create a natural IC, code name for J'sous Ai under Shadow, Cle' O'pat Roues of he'art and solais).

Wouldn't that jiggle the phat la-deis in the scull'n place ... har tac is a seamon's bread ... it has to be soaked in water before consuming ... old terms for baptising the soul with means of thought (wa'Terre, Ur's an old expression of the medium of the mind .. Ba'aL antes point?).

Now, in a realm where you were not allowed to learn or love as common pholk ... how would you share idees? Ah, the myth of thy's Torah with depths in the dark poeL in the wil'der N'ESS ... Mir, or mere spirit of emotives ... MOe! Exchange of spirits and th'oughts goes on with great panes ... Go'des in integral sum dew have a dampening humour on the pas Zions ... leaving you a shimmer, like a ji-eagle at Christ-Maas ... preying for the light of an objective to consume. And life goes on ... changed like words, yet god's word is empire-IC (equal to light) in certain sense of transcendance, absorbing the past and getting by it as a suffering of learning about greater things ... Loves community of spirits ... all over the place and physical beans can't see the beauty in the Kode th'ought ... Theo?

Is the Sole'mon dual character, one unconscious in a book and the other consciouly active in the mind ... but needs awakening? Finnegan's cataonic state of one side or the other of metaphysical Ayres, Eires when whetted, dampened Pas-Zions ... arrested Light? Does this sound like a scientific theisis, or an observational antitheisis of separating the physical from the metaphysical nature of the black and white on pa-Ba Roues ... a firm edict that the infinite would change over time ... th'Eire patient ... resting ... stile the seventh day ... cycle of Lovein amongst the work. Just you wait until the work begins and we're all reciprocated in all th'is shi-ite we've created in negative equity, egael-ite, and Frae turn-idee ... you'll hardly be able to catch your brae'th'inside eL all alite like a Christmas tri ... Andrew Greely called it Angel Pyre, oops f (Ire)! A function of mad cap enterprise that we do not allow in the sharon even though the story says: "take a little whine for you b'elle's sake, and your many sundried illness's." It seems we are not perfect yet---Amon! Perhaps  SIC racein compared to the infinite?