Where I read those statement the context did not seem to be a put down.  It was relating to the experience of how Christianity is perceived within the university setting...cms

Isn't it great when you find out after the fact that someone who's impressed you with their sincerity, humour and warmth has an advanced degree or multiple ones?

 

Uncommon, but amazing.

Hi crazyheart,

 

 

I'm not sure if you are targetting the discussion between Houseman and myself.  We did it though.

 

I'm pretty sure we were boasting about our respective wives and not our mothers if that is the case.

 

So why did Houseman do that?  I have no idea.  You'll have to let him speak for himself.

 

So why did I do that?  That I can answer.

 

Houseman in making a point introduces an element that he is giving authoritative weight to.  In this instance his wife who has two university degrees.  In so doing he has moved the weight of his point from the point itself to the support for the point which is embodied by his wife and her two university degrees.

 

Does his wife's observation have the same weight it would if she had never completed any university study?  Actually, yes it does.  Person A's observation is person A's observation.  Person A's credentials do not automatically prove the significance of their observation.

 

For example.  My friend James is a Toronto Maple Leaf fan.  Which means he is sad a lot.  My friend James is also a Superior Court Judge for the Province of Ontario.  So you know that means the Leafs must be a really good team because he says they are.

 

Houseman and I are on equal footing in our discussion because it is not about how much schooling either of us have over and against the other.  The minute he brings his wife and her two degrees in to assist him he has abandoned the point and focussed on credentials.

 

I myself have two university degrees and all of you know how stun I can be.

 

So if Houseman's wife is the left bower I can only beat it with the right bower.  Lo an behold I have trump and my wife with her five degrees is three degrees more than Houseman's

 

That is me hoisting him by his own petard.

 

I could have cried foul.  I chose not to.  I played the ball foul also.  Hopefully by so doing I pushed the discussion back to the ideas we were lobbing rather  than the authorities we were flaunting.

 

It was not intended as a put-down.

 

I may be married to an intelligent woman who has earned a Ph.D. and is rather knowledgeable about some things.  Put her in a car and give her a map and she struggles.

 

Sometimes PhD does mean piled higher and deeper.

 

Grace and peace to you.

John

 

Greetings!

 

 

I don't think education means the educated people have a better handle on religious.  I think it means that they may have more knowledge about certain things they have studied and learned through the course of their years of education.  Obviously someone who has studied theology, perhaps Hebrew, Greek, and Arabic, and the history and formation of the bible will have more knowledge about the bible than someone who just reads the bible.

 

I don't think formal education means someone is more spiritual as I don't think spirituality is book learned, I think spirituality is spirit and heart learned.  The book or university learning just allows for information and understanding of some of the doctrine, history, and perhaps a wider variety of exposure to different faiths.

 

A person who cannot read, write, and has a limited education can be just as, or even more spirtual, than a person who has doctorate of theology or other university degree.

 

Hope, peace, joy, love ...

 

thank you for all your replies.

Well, I've graduated from Grade 8 of a one-room village school in Bavaria and haven't had any formal schooling since. But most people assume I have a higher education.

 

I think one learns inside one's head, not necessarily inside a lecture hall. If we leave the doors to our mind wide open, then we're open to life-long learning. If the door to the mind is closed, then not even a university education will open it.

 

If the doors to perception were opened, then we'd perceive everything as is: infinite.

-Aldous Huxley

As Rev John so eruditely wrote it is an appeal to authority.  It is also a non sequitur - A statement that does not follow logically from what preceded it.

 

Either way it is an appeal to emotion.  The speaker or writer is trying to evoke some kind of emotional response and deflect the argument.  It may or may not work as the original author intended.  It will always deflect the discussion.

 

I had an English teacher who loathed non sequiturs.  Every time a student spouted one he would jump up and down (he was a little fellow with an English accent), waving his arms about, shrieking "non sequitur".

 

His favourite example was someone applying for a job.  The interviewer asks "why should I hire you" and the applicant says "because I have a wife, four children and a dog in university".  The interviewer, correctly, responds "what does that have to do with *this* job".

 

I have found that 99% of human discussion will become non sequiturial - if it involves religion, that number jumps to 100% (this is based solely on empirical observation, other results may vary).

 

 

LB - to deflect or not to deflect, that is the question

---

I find a duck's opinion of me is very much influenced by whether or not I have bread. Ducks love bread, but they can't buy any. That's gotta be the biggest practical joke from God.

     Mitch Hedberg

imho, a person can be well-educated and not very spiritual. A person can be very spiritual without any formal education at all. Education can help prepare one for specific roles within the church such as Pastor and Chaplain.

 

We do?  ;)

     I figure that yeah, there is a subtle element of put down with all the waving of degrees. I personally quit university after two and a half years and wonder why I bothered going at all. I state that as a put down to those who didn't have the good sense to extricate themselve from the system and move to the country, learn macame, grow turnips, and milk goats.

I wholeheartedly agree that spirituality and education have very little to do with one another.  Like many people I know very spiritual people with little education and well educated people whose spirituality can be very academic but devoid of feeling. I also know LOTS of people who fall at varyiing places among the spectrum, including people with multiple degrees (some of which are theological) who are deeply and passionately spiritual.  I like to think we've dropped the cookie cutter mold of spirituality a long time ago and look more to our own unique ways of being connected to the Divine.

 

I also think we need to remember that people learn and process information very differently.  People also have different opportunities and make different choices. All of which is to be respected.

 

Waving educational credentials just for the sake of waving them is silly.  However, I do think it is sometimes useful to know a bit about each other's training and background and sometimes that means knowing about each other's education.  And...just like we don't want to denigrate someone who has not (for whatever reasons) studied at a more formal academic institution, we also don't want to belittle someone's education or interest in formal study.  As someone who enjoys and values study and likes the community aspect of studying at a seminary (I am working on a Masters in Theology with the goal of pursuing a DMin) then studying theology more formally is what I need.  I also may wish to pursue employment that requires this training someday...so the credentials are a must.  Some choose other paths.  I will admit though, that I do find comments that scoff at my interest in study, or that belittle or harshly judge my interest in formally studied theology, as upsetting. 

 

Judgemental comments about lack of education are wrong.  However, so are judgemental comments about education or an interest in education. 

I have two degrees myself, but one is a professional credential that doesn't impact on religion/spirituality much (a Master of Library and Information Science - MLIS for short). The other is a liberal arts BA with a major in Classics. As part of the latter, I did take a lot of religious studies courses as part of my non-major electives (as well as a couple that did count towards the major). Does make me more spiritual than someone who didn't do a degree or didn't take those courses? Of course not. Did it change my religious direction and have an impact on my spiritual outlook? Oh yeah, baby. Between courses on various non-Western faiths (Hinduism and Islam specifically) and courses on religious ethics and the relationship between science and theology (touching on process theology along the way), my spiritual outlook was definitely affected by my studies. So education =/= more spiritual, but the right education can definitely change your spiritual direction.

 

Mendalla

 

This came to mind. I have heard derogatory comments about the ministry of someone who is  DLM. I have heard it said that they are not intellectual enough for the educated in the congregation. I think this is definitely a put down. They are suggesting that ordained is better.

 

Ah, but intellectual and spiritual are not the same thing. Intellectual is about "challenging the mind" (to quote my UU fellowship's motto), spiritual is about "nourishing the spirit" (ditto). Intellectual does, indeed, suggest education to a lot of people, although I've met intellectual people (of both the positive and negative varieties) who only had a diploma or bachelor's. Of course, ordination does not guarantee "intellectual" and there are non-ordained persons (e.g. who have Ph.D's in various fields) who probably would be sufficiently intellectual.

 

Therefore, for that particular congregation maybe an educated minister, or one who demonstrates in other ways a devotion to "challenging the mind", is the best option. BUT that does not mean that highly educated ministers are better overall. Just that a search committee from that particular congregation needs to take this desire for an intellectual ministry into account.

 

Interestingly, my UU fellowship is fairly intellectual (a lot of university profs, scientists, engineers, and the like esp. among the humanist crowd) but has never (in my time) had someone in the pulpit with a doctorate (just the requisite Bachelors degree and MDiv). My UCC, by contrast, seems to pretty much require both ministers to be packing doctorates. So, intellectual needs can be met without heavy duty education, but it ultimately comes down what the congregation needs/wants.

 

In this case, the congregation may not feel the DLM is intellectual enough and are wrongly ascribing that to a lack of ordination/education when maybe the real issue is more that the DLM just needs to shift their focus a bit to match the congregation's expectations.

 

Mendalla

 

 

Or maybe the DLM is what the congregation wants. The search ctte got it right. And a few of the monied in the congregation who THINK they are intellectual got it wrong. Always two sides to the coin but Money is Power.

There's very big difference between education and wisdom. Education is the acquiring and application of facts and figures. Wisdom is garnered through life experience and correct living. One doesn't have to be formally educated to be wise. 

The context of the reason I mentioned her was in the fact that university educated people can also be church going types,who might feel the education institutions weigh heavily their curriculum on the matters one holds to  or believes in in their own personal conviction.

She was just an example,as well as the list of other people who have degrees and might go to church!

 

I just have a college diploma and it has been able to keep me employed for quite a while now,so I'm not worried that I'll need a degree, I can just go to the library and find a book about the Renaiisance, or Plato, or Socrates, or evolution.

a university education is not required for a deep understanding in spirituality.

 

Well, some people do. Others look through my bluff and realize that I am lowly educated.

 

To those who ask for my degree I say that I have a B.S. degree from T.U. When they ask me what university that is, I reply, "The university in which we all study, the university of universities: The Universe!" After that they usually don't ask what the B.S. degree stands for.

 

I have a PhD. It means that I have the capacity to state the blindingly obvious in terms that are totally impenetrable.

It is a way of persuading you to put up with my bullshit without knowing what it is that I am up to, and with the least possible hope of asking me a question I will stoop to answer.

It is thought more acceptable to announce possession of an advanced degree than it is to simply tell you to piss off.

Economists get away with doing both at the same time. I am not an economist so I can only do my best to hide behind my lexicons of obfuscation.

 

 

 

True enough, but there may be ways to reach out to that group and help them see what is right about the DLM. However, if a monied minority are running the congregation as if it was their own private preserve regardless of what the rest think, there are bigger problems than the minister's qualifications.

 

Mendalla

 

Yes, I can and often do the same thing with my managers. I can techno-speak to them to the point where their eyes become glassy and vacant. Sometimes they will interrupt me and confess that they are drinking from a fire hose. At this point, I have to step back and explain the issue in terms that my grandmother would understand.

 

Does any of this make one wise? Only, I believe, if one is honest and sincere in what they are are presenting. This, I would think, would be hard to do for economist, since they have a specific and usually selfish agenda in behind what they are doing.
 

 

 

 

 

Hi Neo: I make NO claims about my wisdom. Ever.  I am far too fallible. 

I see no connection between spiritualty and education.  Its like comparing apples and oranges.

 

Of course I don't know what individual people were thinking when they were talking about there or there mothers degrees.

 

 

 

Same here Mike. I don't think a day goes by where I don't think .. hmmm..could've handled that better...

In the broader scheme of things I see that there really is no difference from spirituality and education. In fact there is reallly no difference between spirituality and politics, or spirituality and the arts, or spirituality and science. They are one and the same in the sense that everything is Spiritual. There is nothing that happens on this earth that isn't part of the great Spiritual Plan. Even us, be one saint or sinner, we are all part of an unfolding of nature.

Some of the largest faith followers of any religion seem to be from the poorest and lesser educated countries in the world ..... that pretty much says it all ....  i think it's fair to say educated people can better tell fantasy from reality

 

Well. Your foot just landed in a huge pile of road apples.

that the best you can come up with ?

 

it's much easier to convince peasants than professors .....

 

And that's the best you can come up with? Sterotypical conjecture with no grounding in fact. 

 

Canada - 77.1% of Canadians identify as being Christian (2001 census).

 

America - 81% of American adults identify themselves with a specific religion: 76.5% (159 million) of Americans identify themselves as Christian (2001 ARIS study).

 

Australia - 63% of Australians identify as being Christian (Australian Bureau of Statistics).

 

Italy - 91% of the population of Italy identify as being Christian.

 

United Kingdom -  76% of those living in the UK identify as being Christian (2001 census).

 

Religions in the UK

Religion/Denomination
Current religion
 
Percent
%

Christian	42,079,000	71.6
No religion	9,104,000	15.5
Muslim	1,591,000	2.7
Hindu	559,000	1.0
Sikh	336,000	0.6
Jewish	267,000	0.5
Buddhist	152,000	0.3
Other Religion	179,000	0.3
All religions	45,163,000	76.8
Not Answered	4,289,000	7.3
No religion + Not Answered	13,626,000	23.2
Base	58,789,000	100

Source: UK 2001 Census

 

2001
1991
% change
(in numbers)

Number
 %
Number
 %
Total Population
29,639,035
 
26,944040
 
+9.8
Christian
22,851,825
77
22,503,360
83
+1.5
No affiliation
4,900,090
16.5
3,397,000
12.6
+44.2
Other

Top Religious Denominations in Canada

- Roman Catholic	12,793,125	43.2	12,203,625	45.2	+4.8
- Total Protestant	8,654,845	29.2	9,427,675	34.9	-8.2
- United Church of Canada	2,839,125	9.6	3,093,120	11.5	-8.2
- Anglican Church of Canada	2,035,495	6.9	2,188,110	8.1	-7.0
- Christian, not included elsewhere¹	780,450	2.6	353,040	1.3	+121.1
- Baptist	729,470	2.5	663,360	2.5	+10.0
- Lutheran	606,590	2.0	636,205	2.4	-4.7
- Protestant, not included elsewhere²	549,205	1.9	628,945	2.3	-12.7
- Presbyterian	409,830	1.4	636,295	2.4	-35.6
- Christian Orthodox	495,245	1.7	387,395	1.4	+27.8
- Muslim	579,645	2.0	253,265	0.9	+128.9
- Jewish	329,990	1.1	318,185	1.2	+3.7
- Buddhist	300,345	1.0	163,415	0.6	+83.8
- Hindu	297,200	1.0	157,010	0.6	+89.3
- Sikh	278,415	0.9	147,440	0.5	+88.8
¹ Includes persons who report “Christian”, and those who report “Apostolic”, “Born-again Christian” and “Evangelical”. ² Includes persons who report only “Protestant”. * For comparability purposes, 1991 data are presented according to 2001 boundaries.

2001 census.

 

 

 

 

I have a Ph.D.  It's not a big deal.  It only stands for "Piled higher and Deeper".  It's just a piece of paper with ink on it.  Knowledge is the foundation of any decision making process.  Some people hide behind their degrees.  Likewise, those without  a degree may hide behind their years of experience, mentoring, self-study, etc.  The relationship between educaiton and spirituality is an individual response.  After high school, I was an agnostic.  Through years of studying in various fields - science, mathematics, business, theology, social sciences, etc., I move toward an understanding of the spiritual dimension.  Although we experience life through our senses, there are times when our senses can't be trusted to give us complete or accurate data.  The more I learn, the more I realize I don't know.  People can hide behind spirituality as much as others can hide behind education.  Some choose to hide behind both.  Whenever someone uses the 'education' argument, nail them down about what they learned, where they studied, what was the topic of their research, but mainly, corner them on how this knowledge influenced their values and beliefs.  If education and/or spirituality are used as masks, both are practically useless.  If they are used to strengthen your values, then they are mutually beneficial. 

So jes. If you think that out of all the hundreds of millions (if not billions) of people that profess a religious belief, that there is not a PLETHORA of educated souls among them, you have a lot of explaining to do.