I would have like to have edited that little piece above me.  I sure would like an edit feature. 

I see, your point fellow Wondercafers.    Whether or not ministers wear gowns is far more important than the trivial actions of pedophiles, rapists and abusers of children and women!

Hi jlin,

To be fair we have been discussing the issue of child abuse in the "Priest Off" thread among other things.

We have also looked at the issue in the "tragic on so many levels" thread.

Your opening post, while presenting quite a bit of information on Warren Jeffs who has been arrested, tried, convicted, sentenced and imprisoned doesn't invite us to engage in discussion.

Unless it is about how Ponzi schemes work.

I'm not a Mormon and I do not personally support child marriage or plural marriage.  I think that Presbyterians are rather mild compared to the FLDS.

Grace and peace to you.

John

Christianity is a highly misogynistic religion.   On one end of the spectrum we have child rapes, teenager rapes, and wife beatings and rapes.  On the other end of the spectrum we still have wives submitting their husbands and losing their identitities.  , (possible and likely abuse in these situations)  We have God giving Adam dominion over Eve.  If women are lesser beings in God's eyes nobody is going to care if they are raped and beaten and mentally abused by their husbands or society in general.

RevJohn

Well, I was unaware of the child abuse thread but my concern is not just about abuse but the added factor of being able to hide behind the legitimized wall of a fundamentalist xian cult while basically cloistering victims. 

Quite frankly, people will avoid it because they think they are powerless in the face of men who hate and get away with it or else it is so depressing & traumatizing that they want to stay away from it.  too creepy.   Jeffs may be tried but the stories need to be heard.  one by one, like the stories of the families and victims of residential schools.  It may not seem like our story but by being xians it is.

As for Presbyterians being a mild source of victimization, -, maybe not - varieties of Presbyterians lead to weird cults as well.  For example the guy who was blowing up oil rigs in Alberta - near Grande Prairie was Presby..  He enjoyed shaming women by shaving their heads.  He also sexualizes young girls - his daughters - long before puberty - he just gets into shame, probably makes him hot - gee sounds like religion.

Sorry for the incorrect spelling of the word, "Ponzy' . . . definitely looks more Italian.  Well, it seems odd to me that the financial issues of this cult are not well discussed in the Media - and all the media seems to hype up is hysteria about the "legality" of Polygamy ( which I do believe is destructive to 'trust" relationships for everyone involved - and must, therefore rely on power over and under relatiionships in order to survive - it's hurtful - especially to women and to children who have no chance at learning about anything but survival in this situation ) .  Losing the financial status one has worked hard to acquire over a lifetime, through the appropriation of private wealth seems to be a trickle down affect, which looks more like a trickle up when one views the direction of the distribution of wealth.

Austin:  Forms of xianity and Judaesm are definitely anti-feminist. But  the Jesus cult was utterly feminist.

As far as I'm concerned they are no more scary than Fundamental hardcore Christians who abuse in the name of God. They also hide behind their religion. Then we can also talk about Fundamental Muslims who kill themselves in the name of God

I agree with what you are saying  --   It's all abuse and who is to say that one case is more dramatic than another.  I guess the pure size and nature of the FLDS, the fact that they continue to lie about it to cover it up, and the abusive power structure of the entire cult makes the abuse of people through and economic control of the cult by the leaders so so harsh and hard core.  IT seems so strange to me that women who leave the cult have no recourse to sue for child support - why not???????  What is up with that??????  Someone's pockets are being lined - it's so obvious. -  If their form of marriage is not legal marriage in the secular society, they are at  the very least, common-law. 

No, of course the issue is that women start to leave and sue for divorce, alimony ( as they are unprepared to live in the world and will require training and support) and child support - it would bring the FCLS to its knees

Also, the local police forces are often cult members which makes reporting abuse almost impossible. 

You do realize that you're talking about an extreme and very small minority denomination within the LDS, right?

Well, yes, Witch. - I can't get a complete figure on their numbers but one figure was 30,000 ( I think but this seems wrong when I put the numbers together with the various townships) - They do own a LOT of REal Estate and are connected to Los Vegas through  the Salt Lake City group of Mormon mainstream ( and the Lethbridge group as well).  As you are an Islander you should be aware that Nelson is divulging allegations about Bountiful being an exporter of Pot ( think Los Vegas).   BC gossip is just BC gossip, but when it comes to pot exports there is usually some truth to it. 

No, husbands who treat their wives like that are misogynistic.  Peter gave some pretty clear instructions on how husbands were to treat their wives. Don't blame Christianity for the failing of some people to treat others with dignity and respect. That is their very own doing.

Hi jlin,

Fair enough.

I think that there are some things that need to be brought out of that discussion.  Some will find them nit-picky things.  I would prefer that the conversation be specific and not general.

Mormonism is not Christian any more than Islam is Jewish.

Mormonism shares some figures with Christianity just as Christianity shares some figures with Judaism and Islam shares figures with both Christianity and Judaism.  That doesn't make all four equal.

The FLDS is not hiding behind a legitimized wall of Christianity it is hiding behind the legitimized wall of Mormonism.

Christianity has enough of its own sins to look after without it being responsible for the sins of its brothers.

And, while we are on the topic of legitimacy the fact that Warren Jeffs is behind bars indicates that whether or not the FLDS is legitimate it does not have carte blanche to do as it wishes.

Obstacles that prevent the CPS from taking stronger action may include religious freedom, though I doubt that is going to take precedence over an act of child abuse.  Thus the incarceration of Jeffs in the first place.

What is most likely the greater obstacle is the cultic regulations of the FLDS which are no doubt found in some Christian denominations.  They are by no means common to all Christian denominations.

Until someone is willing to come forward, as Jeffs nephew was, incidences of child sexual abuse will remain unreported and without reports CPS has no authority to invade compounds and remove children.

That isn't a freedom of religion thing.  That is an innocent until proven guilty thing.

There are some connections between the residential schools and Jeffs.  Those connections only involve how sexual predators keep their sexual prey under control.  I suspect that many are willing to hear the stories of those who escaped from the FLDS.  In order to hear we need them to speak.

Which will be one of the greatest healings from the Truth and Reconciliation Hearings scheduled here in Canada.  The victims will speak to an audience that is determined to listen and to hear what is being said.

No doubt.  Wiebo Ludwig (I think that is who you reference); however was not a member of the Presbyterian Church.  Ludwig was, for a while a leader of a Christian Reformed Church in Goderich, Ontario.  It would appear that he left that particular denomination to found his own congregation out in Alberta.  That congregation was comprised of family members and some followers from Goderich.

I had not heard any of these allegations made against Ludwig.

It would probably be more "newsworthy" if there were some high-rollers involved.  There is also very little sympathy given to folk who willingly enter into such bizarre financial arrangements.  A fool and their money are soon parted.

No doubt.  Again, unless the victims or other witnesses are willing to come forward legal authorities cannot get far with simple suspicion.  We can point to how the dynamics, as they currently exist must be injurious, until some injured party comes forward there is precious little authorities can do.

We could blame it on theology and some will be content to do that.  That kind of generalization doesn't lead to improvement.  It isn't theology that makes men like Jeffs do what he did.  He creates theology to justify his doing what he did.  To do that he needs to be in control.

Like Koresh in Waco, Phelps at Westboro Baptist and possibly Ludwig at Good Shepherd.  They are men who are, in some way already unhinged abusing religion as much as they abuse anyone or anything else.

And yet, unless we see any of them pointing a gun at another's head that other participates by choice.

Grace and peace to you.

John

While we are at it, we can talk about Sikh extremists, and Hindu extremists, hell, theya re the ones that started that shit!  And self-immolation isn't really "suicide bombing" so much as just "suicide protesting" but lets throw the buddhists in the mix.

Then we can move onto the ultranationalist political groups that have kille din the name of good government...

As-salaamu alaikum

-Omni

RevJ

Thanks for your reply.  " A fool and his money are soon parted" probably, but on one level we are all fools and if we are being sexualized at the same time as being love bombed, the combination makes a form of hypnosis that many will themselves into and others will find is giving them the love and  community that they need. 

Yes, the name was Ludwig.  I lived in Grande Prairie at the time of the bombings and trial - it was quite weird for sure.  I can't proove that he was sexualizing the young girls.  It's just something that was beginning to be picked up and there were definitely rumours of sexual abuse and incest in the local media.  Nothing was substantiated. 

I had thought Ludwig was raised Presbyterian.

Hi jlin,

Indeed.  There is no law against being fools.  Nor are there many laws that prevent fools from being taken advantage of.  When fools get tired of it they become less foolish and are better able to look after themselves.

Why does it need to be proven?  Why shouldn't we just string him up?

Not much defence against rumour is there?  I mean if we are willing to shred our own integrity by contributing to the rumour mill then why would somebody else's integrity be spared?

Well, if you are wrong about that the law of averages would suggest that you must be right about the other allegations.  What are the odds that you could be wrong about all of those allegations.

I note that Wiebo has written a letter imploring the latest eco-terrorist bomber to consider another course of action other than violence which could lead to serious injury.

Do you think he is just looking for good behaviour time and it is a game or something else?

Grace and peace to you.

John

Revj

Hmmm,  It's interesting that though the women in the media really hate Weibo Ludwig, I can't find one of their articles about the man on the web, at least not at a quick glance.  I have tried a few avenues but I'm not an expert. 

I did discover that the women are not the only ones opposed to his mysogeny; however.  I did find an article by a journalist who sat by while his wife was being berated and accused by the "man" and allowed her to take it while he _ poor little journalist - stared in frustration in the fire.  He appreciated Ludwig's self-reliance at being entirely off the grid in  Northern Alberta and the crap the Ludwig spews at women ( emotional abuse followed by physical punishment and public shaming - which he would do on the outside if he could get away with it) seems to be lost in the gloss of the  "real world" of ecoterrorism.  odd.

And yes, now that my memory banks are clearing, I do remember very clearly that there was an article about him being a minister in the  Presbyterian church and that he split from it. 

Also, I think that if as one person wrote about Weibo "women are subject to men and men are subject to God" and  Weibo gets away with that in public then, in the democratic world a woman is completely within her rights to get up and deck him one in public and say, "Welll, in my personal mythology, that's allowed."  This is not subjective "abuse" everyone is enjoying the drama of  having the  man get away with shaming women.   

As physical and sexual abuse follow one and another - especially with someone as hostile as Ludwig gets, I'm sorry but I don't doubt the "rumours" as much as you.  Is it his personal mythology that incest is bad and God will git ya.  We can only hope so.  But sexual abuse doesn't have to be overt.  merely the act of shaving a woman's head and telling her it is because she is a bad woman, is enough ( in the real world  -- of phsychoanalysis) to scar someone - sexually and non-sexually.

Hi jlin,

I've looked also and can find very little.  The one site I found which seems to contain the most biography is an excert from Andrew Nikiforuk's book entitled, "Saboteurs:  Wiebo Ludwig's War Against Big Oil."  It is taken from the October 2001 issue of Canadian Business.

http://www.saboteursandbigoil.com/saboteurs.htm

Can you pot the link to that article.  I'd be happy to read it.

While I can find links to a lot of pages that reference both the Presbyterian Church and Wiebo Ludwig I have yet to find any that point to the connection that you claim.  An excerpt from Nikiforuk's book, referenced above points to the connection I have raised upthread with the Christian Reformed Church.

http://www.amazon.ca/gp/reader/1551991012/ref=sib_rdr_ex?ie=UTF8&p=S00H&j=0#reader-page

The excerpt on the Amazon page points directly at Wiebo's religious affiliation and quite bluntly lays out his beliefs which appear to be somewhat puritanical and they are a slap in the face of contemporary society, even for the day in which the quotes are taken.

The excerpt on Amazon shows Nikiforuk quoting that particular teaching as coming from Ludwig.  To be fair though it is Ludwig interpreting Paul.  While "submit" is a problematic word for the contemporary ears the ideal leader is not a dictator.  The same bit of text which Ludwig lifts up to show wives should submit to their husbands (Women and wives are represented by the same word in the Greek text as are men and husbands--context controls the translation--I think Ludwig is allowing his particular bias to control his) also calls husbands to love their wives as Christ loved the Church.

Ludwig's mistranslation aside condoning physical violence should be a non-starter in a thread denouncing abuse.

That works as opinion.  Nikiforuk reports that the congregation Ludwig served was quite torn by his leadership which clearly means that some, at least, actually did not enjoy the drama of having the man get away with shaming women.  Painting with a wide-brush is not good truth telling.

Ludwig certainly is not my kind of guy.  I don't know if anyone needs to go out of there way to make him anymore distasteful than he already is.

Whether it is or isn't is not something I have uncovered in my research.  So I choose to continue to look rather than to cast aspersions on his character based on the assumption that it is so.

By which you mean you will not hope you will continue to assert that it must be so.

No doubt.  I have found no record that Ludwig actually did that.  I would be happy to see your link.

Grace and peace to you.

John

RJ

www.skuncle.com/rants/weibo2.htm

Is the only article that I could find that has anything like what was going on in the Grande Prairie region in the late 90's for reality on the man.

The shaved heads were not only common knowledge in Grande Prairie ( one woman - midwife -  in the La Leche League in Grande Prairie knew one of the women in the colony) and in the local new but I do so absolutely remember Ludwing yelling at either a journalist or a lawyer at either a pretrial or some kind of a hearing that if she was one of his women he would have her head shaved.  I could not find this anywhere on the web, but I do remember reading it in the spring or summer of 1999.

Please remember that Grande Prairie is an intense place with lots of stuff going on.  People don't really sit around and deal with rumours.  They are all too busy dealing with reality. Because of my childcare  I was visiting the gym often at the same time as the highschool kids.  In the gym , girls - from one weird xian spin off religion or another would be in the weight room in full length skirts and long sleeve shirts.  . . somewhat more fashionable than the local Hutterite colony but not really as open as individuals. In fact, I found the Hutterites so suffused by the prejudice around them that they warmed up to me really quickly, the moment they realized that for some reason, I didn't hold that ideology.

which can also tell you that I am not realy judgmental about the religious aspects or the clothes or the weirdness, just when the abuse issues are being screamed about in a place as intense and patriarchal and prejudiced and redneck and abusive as Grande Prairie, you gotta know it's substantiated; whether or not proof will be "out".  As for the shaved heads.  That is an absolute fact.  The computer is not an adequate research instrument.  And Alberta is a reactionary police state state.  Let's just start with googling "Alberta" and "Feminism" and see if that doesn't bust the computer. 

RJ 

Sorry.  Wrong address, but having followed that loony tune really WAS a blast from the past!  And  I am having problems with the other address.  The author is Tooker Gomberg, the activist who tragically took his own life in 2004) >  and I really can't get my computer to do the address properly but it you google it its www.greenspiration.org/environ/articles/SurvivingWithWeibo.htm