Thank you for the reminder.

Nicely written Freundly.

LB

The thing I hate about an argument is that it always interrupts a discussion.         G. K. Chesterton

Thanks.

Hi Freundly-Giant,

I wonder.

I wonder if that is surface picture or if it testifies to the depth.

I wonder if what has been read as hate has not been, more often than not, hurt.

I wonder if what has been read as deliberate and contemplative has not been, more often than not, emotional and reactive.

Reading tone in this forum is difficult.

Knowing how long someone has sat and composed their thoughts is impossible.  All I can see is the time an "offending post" was posted and the time between strong responses.  I do not know that the strong responders have sat for seconds, minutes or hours before they have clicked on send.

We use the term community here a lot.  

I think we fool ourselves into thinking that we have everything community normally has.

I hear my neighbour's voice and I get clues about what they think or feel.  I read your text and, well I imagine that I think I know what you think or feel.  Likewise, you do the same to me.

I look at my neighbour's posture and I get clues about what they mean or how they feel.  I read your text and I have no clues in that regard.

So, to reiterate; I don't get any verbal or non-verbal cues from written text and I am forced to deal with the text alone.  That is 20% of effective communication which means, pragmatically, that 8 out of 10 times I'm misreading you.  Or said another way, 80% of the time communication here is failing.

The thread is very appropriate because of the concern.  I respect that you are not cool with what is going on.  I'm not cool in that I think it is a good thing to happen.  I am cool in that it is a thing that is always happening.

On one level the fact that folk are willing to be vulnerable here does testify to the ability to generate the illusion of "safe space".  I deliberately use the term illusion because as much as we wish it to be other wise there is no "safe space" when one makes one's self vulnerable.

If I lay my heart on the table for all to explore some clumsy oaf who is interested is going to handle it roughly.  Whether that is by intent or design the damage will be the same.  All that intent and design do is make reconciliation difficult, if not impossible to reach.

So, maybe instead of creating a "safe space" which is an impossible goal we can focus our efforts on creating a "non-abusive" space.  Understanding that this speaks only to the intent from which communication is offered not the damage it has the potential to cause.

Delicate things need to be handled with kid gloves.  Intention is never prevention when it comes to injury.  "I didn't mean it" never equates with "It never happened."

While I respect this sentiment I do not for a second believe that it is an absolute.  Taking it as a given creates the illusion of "safe space".  It allows us to delude ourselves into thinking that "it will never happen here" which of course leaves us extremely unprepared for when it does happen here.

I cannot control how others respond to any post I make.  I operate out of hope that they will understand when I am being light-hearted, or pushing or good-natured rough and tumble.  Sometimes my posts completely fail to get that across.  That should mean that I try again and attempt to be more deliberate to the point of deliberately saying what I intend.  Sometimes I see others expect more out of others than themselves.  I expect I've been guilty of it myself because I am not perfect.

One other thing that I have come aware of lately.

Wondermail is a different place and beneath the relative calm or occasional gale in the public forae there are currents dark, deep and sometimes troubling.  Sunshine above the treetops and shadow beneath the canopy so to speak.

Recently I had an exchange with another poster.  Publically it was very different than our routine discussion or banter.  There was an edge to it.  Later that other poster came to me privately and we were able to strip down the public conversation and this is what I found.

This poster has a particular weakness.  We all have them.  An area where allowing ones self to be vulnerable also allows ones self to be hurt.  Our conversation waded into that area without my even knowing it.

I responded to the initial post in character.

Privately, an third poster decided to interpret my post and use that interpretation as a club to beat on my conversational partner.

I can think of nothing more underhanded and intentionally schismatic than that in a public forum.

My friend and I have resolved the problem and we are reconciled with one another.  We will always be aware of that issue.  You now know that it happened.  You don't know, other than myself, who was involved and how.  I don't even know who chose to use me as their club and I honestly hope I never find out because I think I would have a difficult time respecting them knowing that.

Wise advice.  Still, it is only half the job.  When I am not writing I'm reading.  When I am responsible for providing 80% of the message how I am feeling has the potential to scuttle community more than mere text on a window.

I have friends.  We engage in banter.  We poke, we prod, we laugh and through that we grow.  We grow to the point where we know that now is not the time for poking, prodding or laughter.  My avatar doesn't tell you that.

So, we develop a friendly routine of give and take and all goes well until my real world takes a tremendous dive and I come to this virtual world beaten, bruised and bloodied.  I may not be up to the friendly routine.  You may not know that until you cross a newly drawn line.

Then a process that happens in real life, in real time is forced into casual chunks of time.

That isn't community.  That is a role-playing game.

Thank you for sharing.

Grace and peace to you.

John

Thanks for the insight, John. I'll reopen this topic later, but for now I'm pressed for time.

Thanks for raising this FG.  Keep on plugging along and try not to be discouraged. I'd miss you if you left!

Thank you for your insight in this post, John.   I too am having difficulty with the agressiveness of some rresponses.  It is good to be reminded that some may be expressing this out of hurt.

I find the more aggressive respondents are not here for long. They bore at always being right and move on

I have no doubt that some here have been hurt and are lashing out.  It's probably accurate to say that I'm not quite as sensitive to it as others here.  But the direction of WC will be set by the admins or whoever run the place.  Just being an anti-theist, I had my doubts that I would be around here for long, but that suspicion was proven incorrect fairly early on.  WC admins are very tolerant, as they seem content to remove profane posts, but not profane people.  Fine by me, but not fine for others, it would appear.

Speaking of which, where is Tom?  I miss my spiritual twin...my soulmate in Christ...my partner in preaching.

We should also remember that sometimes people here are hurting or in need and should be treated extra carefully. I can have fun to argue politics or points of faith and that's not wrong, but there are other times when being really gentle is being called for.

 I appreciate all the well chosen comments and helpful advice given on this thread so far. I especially thank RevJohn for pointing out how empathy on a chat line is not the same as in face to face contact.

Freundly, I am not attempting to start a fight in your thread, but it seems to me that the fundies are rather apt to read the devil into our posts and thus feel the need to resort to warfare in an attempt to bring us back into line with their feelings.

 Beshpin, my post was rather spur of the moment and rash on my  part and I hope that it does not disrupt the good examples that have been set by the other posters in this thread started by Freundly-Giant.

I have started a new thread called Warriors For Christ in order to explore my thoughts without disrupting this so far pleasant thread.

I share your dissapointment.   I too have seen many threads disintigrate into name calling and bashing.

I totally agree with you.   I don't like the split.  I think that it is very appropriate to start a thread about this.

Thank-you for the reminder.  

I think that that there is more to it than RevJohn's explanation (good explanation it was) about taking offense because we can only see 20% of the conversation.   I do agree that is the case in some flame wars but not all.  There are some posters who have an agenda and are just deliberately loud mouthed and nasty and start fights.  For example in the Priest Off thread where Crazyheart started the whole nasty sockpuppet business.  RevJohn made a mistake.  Crazyheart picked it up and several posters joined in being very nasty to She_Devil and I.  That was not about body language.  Although it is doubful that if we were all sitting and talking someone would get falsely accused of being my sockpuppet when there are two people in the room.  Still that ugliness was not about body language or lack of it.

And I did apologize to you and Rev John. You can only say you are sorry so many times. I read John's post wrong and carried on. I did not take time to think. But I am not going to wear that mantle forever, Serena. You either accept the apology or you don't but either way we move on.

My two cents, Crazyheart.  You may not always where that mantle, but (as I experienced--and note that I don't post very often anymore) you like to try it on fairly frequently.  Yes, you should not have to apologize for the same thing over and over and over again.

Hi Jeffery. Good to hear from you. you have been missed. I think we had some good go arounds that i always lost. We miss you.

You did not apologize to me and it was because of your "not thinking" that other posters were ridiculing my child and I.  Just because they thought I was Serena when they were ridiculing me does not make it any better.

The only thing I was questioning about you, she-devil was your profile.

FG,

Thanks for spelling 'too' correctly.

That means I love you.

M 

By calling me a sockpuppet of Serena's you devalued me as a user/poster and basically called me a liar.  Then you apologized to revjohn and Serena further implying that I do not exist.

What do you want?  A cookie?

Even I'm willing to apologize to you by now, just to make it stop.  And I have no idea what I'd be apologizing about.

Chanson said:

This is all because someone called you a sockpuppet?  Fine, you're not a sockpuppet.  Any ridiculous opinions or beliefs you hold are your own ridiculous opinions or beliefs.

Besides, if anyone wants to test if someone is a sockpuppet, just flag a post and ask admin if the IPs match another member.  Simple.  Assuming nobody had the foresight to do that, they shouldn't be calling you a sockpuppet.

This is all because someone called you a sockpuppet?

No.  I am not sure what the whole thing Freundly is referring to I think that it is only part of it.

Not Freundly's thread - just your complaints here.

I'd like to bring this back to what Freundly said and reiterate, having been privy to and involved in, some 'discussions' last week, I agree it is important to approach even those we disagree with with a mature and balanced approach. Sometimes that is rebuffed, and the best thing at that point is to realize no minds will change, and to save everyone the aggravation of hammering square pegs into round holes. If there is a receptive audience who disagrees without being disagreeable, that's fair game; however when it ceases to be fun, the idea of ending the conversation, finding another thread, or perhaps changing the tone ourselves, and having some empathy with the place of hurt or anger our 'opponent' might be coming from and vice versa, is a good idea and again a good reminder from FG.

You will just have to deal with my complaints here.  That is life.

Hi FG

Sorry I didn't take time to read the whole thread tonight. Someone sent me this by email and I'd just like to send it along to others.