Hi Serena:

It could be that the interventionist God does not exist.

It could be that reality is in a unitive state of synthesis, wherein everthing is united into one inseparable whole, and this whole is God, and experiencing the unitive state is experiencing God as well as the unitive love which is said to be the love of God.

Then, being united with God—a.k.a. godly grace—is the innate state being. We, not God, have alienated ourselves away from that state, and it is up to us to became aware of that state, and re-instate it.

In other words, grace is not up to God, but to us.

Ah, theodcy. Excellent. I await someone who has the answer to THAT. Job. you listening?

Here's a possible part of the answer.  Does/did your father stop you from all possible harmful situations that you faced?  Why not?  Does he love you?  (assuming you have a good relationship with your father)

God could of prevented all pain and agony if he created us as robots.  God did not want robots but relationships.  God gave us all free will though so we could choose to love Him back.  God DESIRES that everyone gets saved, Gods WILL is choice.  We can choose to not have a relationship with God if that is what we will.

And God is NOT idle but active in our lives.  He sent Jesus to die for the most critical area of our life so we could have a relationship with Him.  And while Christ is in Heaven praying for you He has sent the Holy Spirit as a reflection of Himself.  One role is as a comforter.  I've seen God active in our church regarding the exact issues you've discussed in your post.  There is the whole reaping/sowing aspect of life, but there are things that are outside of our control that you were trying to focus on, I think.

Why is a happy/hurt-free life on earth with no sadness the ultimate goal?  Is that what life is all about, a persons personal happiness?  If so I think there is a incomplete view on life and on God.  Job was blameless and look at all the the things God allowed in his life.  What was his response - worship amoungst others. 

God is sovreign, and He desires a relationship with you and will help you in life.  Not by taking away the bad things but He is right there in 'it' with us.  Usually we cannot see him in it but we may have to ask Him where He is and seek Him out.  One of the reasons for life with God being better than without is for that relationship and His caring, loving , grace,  discipline, wisdom and the rest of gifts He wants to bestow on us and use through us.  Sooooo much more I'd like to share but my ideas and time surpass my typing.  Excellent questions though, keep thinking.

Sorry my brother but you seem to contradict yourself in this statement, if God is everything and everything is in God , then it must also become first in God for it to be, including Grace, so it is up to God , we are just the receptions of that which already is.

Interesting question Serena. I particularly like the daisy petal Christianity metaphor. I have a particularly hard time with the notion of believing that I got the raise or won the football game because God is on my side. The notion that I am a chosen person is arrogant in my opinion. I like how you described the prodigal son parable.

phreakyteebz, yes, our parents do sometimes allow us to feel the consequences of our actions, and do not intervene. They also do not stand back and ignore us when we need a hug. I think this is part of Serena's question. I have heard variations of your answer in past churches I have attended, and in this thread. It really is part of the narrative of some churches, and does not answer the question.......but then, can the question be answered??

I have a problem with the notion of us bringing our problems on ourselves or not. It seems that some people are more or less deserving based on whether or not they brought the problems on themselves. I think it is a wording issue for me.......I mean we all find ourselves in messes that we have created ourselves. Do we get punished for them? Sometimes, sometimes not. Often, we just need to face the natural consequences. Sometimes we do need to answer to someone else, and at the very least, to make amends.

I do not believe in a Santa Claus god that grants us our hearts desire, or who knows when we have been naughty or nice. I do believe that Christ came to show us how to worship god, and how to treat others, etc. It is hard for me to put into words. So that makes it hard for me to consider the being in relationship with god the way some churches teach. Perhaps being in relationship with god for me, is being fully in the world and relating to those around me. Perhaps it is learning to face life's difficulties both on my own, and in community. I am good at trying to do things "my way" and trying to sort out my stuff alone. I keep getting these lessons in allowing others to help me out. Perhaps that is how god works. Who knows. I know I am a work in progress.

This is an interesting thread. Thanks Serena.

No, blackie, I didn't contradict myself.

To me, God is not a being, but being—being, period!—the totality of being: the cosmic totality in a state of synthesis.

In my cosmology and theology, God is the only reality: God is all there is. The state of grace, then, is the innate state of being, only that we humans have alienated ourselves away from that state. The illusion of separteness is our worst illusion. As soon as we get rid of it, we perceive the innate oneness: GRACE!

I'm sure you have experienced grace, only that you interpreted your experience according to the doctrines of your denomination.

People of all denominations, however, have experienced grace, and even people who don't believe in anything.

Serena, that very same question killed my belief in an interventionist God.  If there is a good answer to it, I'd be very interested in hearing it, because I don't think there is.  The alternative to the intervening God doesn't have to be no god at all, though;  similarly to Arminius, for me "God" is the Source of all,who is in and throughout all of creation, who holds us in love throughout life and death - and all that lies in between, both the good and the bad.  

Ditto for me on thoughts expressed by Diana & Arminius.  God just is, and loves us whether or not we might be aware of such love and grace.  My minister often says ... there is nothing you can do to make God love you more, or less.   

Agreed.

The two highlighted words are where the idea goes off the rails. Who indeed would want a relationship with someone who sees your son standing on the railway tracks, doesn't bother to tell him that the 10:30 express to Topeka is coming, then tries to pick you up at the funeral?

But ....

God is not a being.

We are God's fingers.

We can rescue people from, for example,  "cancer, abusive husbands, earthquakes, floods, death of a loved one". (Assuming that you mean unnecessary death in the last case, and not the Lazarus thing.)

Serena, I think the description you have of god is wrong. It's not a personality who judges you or rewards or punishes, or sends you to heaven or hell. People who want a relationship with that sort of god are doing it for unhealthy reasons in my opinion. Think of god as more of an all encompassing, all permeating force that is not sentient or judgental, but ultimately good. The grass grows, the wind blows, time ticks on and you are ok.

When there's no god to judge you, there no reason not to forgive, and in that way there is always forgiveness. Allow yourself to be quiet and listen to that. You will hear it, if you listen to your heart and allow time to carry you there.

I want to recommend a film to you, if you can find it. It's a tv miniseries called Shenandoah. She is Iroquoi and goes through many trials and terrible hardships, but she finds peace near the end.

God's power is only one of persuasion - not force - God has to work with the world as it is to lure it to where it could be - this changes the nature of intervention to one that is naturalistic - like all intervenition it is only one of the causal factors - and the causal factor is love and walking with - it is also dependent on the other actors to add their insight and love to each situation - it trusts that we can be awake - now it does take some people a long time to come awake and for some they never do because of all other causal factors - like drug addiction.

Thus when you drop all supernatural images of power =like only God has power and all powerful - then the question changes when one speaks of intervention.

It is not different in kind from our inteventions.

It is, I believe, natural for us to project our human thoughts, feelings, personalities, experiences onto others - even non humans.  We all do it.   I, every now and then, forget that the computer is a machine and believe that it is a malicious creature out to drive me mad.  My partner projects human behaviour onto our dogs and is constantly mystified when they behave like, well, dogs.

A computer is a computer.  A dog is a dog.  God is God. 

No matter how much we want to shape them into images of ourselves.

If I expect that others are to receive me as I am.  How can I not expect that of others, even God.

But this is just my self projection....

LB

Projection makes perception.    

attributed to Marianne Williamson
 

Serena:

I think once you see through Christianity there is no going back.  God does not make sense.  He is either powerless or a cruel, malicious being.  Society is in the process of outgrowing religion.  Religion gave us history, purpose, and belonging for centuries.  It will continue to bring goodness to mankind.  You need to let go of your expectations of God since He really is not real in the way you want Him to be.  Think of God like Santa Claus.  Santa is real yet he is not.  God is the same way.  As an adult you really do not need to bother with either Santa or God most of the time anyway.

The book discounts the atonement theology though.   The sin in the garden of Eden was not eathing the apple it was not trusting God not disobedience.   The book claims that God desires to have a relationship with us so the whole "if you don't believe in Jesus you are going to hell" is more like a gunshot wedding where the groom says "I do" only because the bride's father is holding a shotgun to his head.  This is why the father in the story "The Prodigal Son" gave the youngest son his inheiritance when he asked him for it.  So we have life and we are given that life as a gift.  It is by grace that we get to Heaven not by a choice because the word "choice" is a verb and that would negate grace by having works.  

I think that RevJohn would approve of the definition of grace and works in this book.  I am not sure though so I cannot speak for him.

The book does not negate that Jesus died on the cross.  Jesus died on the cross as an antidote though not a sacrifice since he always knew that he would rise from the dead and conquer sin.   The whole blood thing was taken by Christians to make Jesus the Lamb of God paralleling Old Testament sacrifices.

I like this explanation better than the atonement theology it does not totally make sense though either.

Yes, that is part of my question.

I agree up to a point.  Say somebody stole a car.  Yes, they should go to jail.  That is their own mess.  I don't think God should bail them out of jail.  Say a woman stole a loaf of bread to feed her children.  Different motivation.   I don't think she should go to jail.  I do think that she should be on probation or something.   She probably would not be stealing if she had a good education or if the child's father was supporting the child etc.  Some of the messes we create for ourselves are because there is not a good choice.

Why does a God who ignores His children and allow tragedies to happen deserve to be worshipped?

God has, however, taken note of you, and most certainly will do same at the day of judgement.

I'ts great to have confidence in one's self, but we are only capable so much of what God has us to do.

Human resources are only so potent, to go beyond our comfort zone sometime I find I have no other recoarse, but to put my trust in God for an answer,  intercetion,or both.

Bolt

lol - that is a hoot Aquila.

Do you see lightning and hear thunder when you make pronounmements like that? You oughta change your avatar to something more appropriate - a pic of Torquemada maybe.

Thanks for my chuckle of the day, man.

David

Good point. I have a hard time putting things into words. I think I would rephrase my previous comment to say that I believe that Jesus came to teach us how to live and treat each other. It is more than that for me though. As I said, I do not believe in a Santa Claus god that takes notes of when you have been good and bad, or grants wishes.

Now that just makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside.  I have already had my day of judgement on wondercafe.  When you all and even a thunderbolt reverand were interested in the paternity father of my baby.

Here is why I don't need a paternity test.   I had an affair with a woman.  Because of that I am fairly certain that my husband is the father.  You can pronounce that I am going to hell for that as well Aquilla.  Don't miss the opportunity to scare the hell out of me.

The whole idea of "believe in Jesus or you are going to go to hell" is like being blackmailed.   We were born into sin by Christian theology so why would God condemn us to hell for it?  It is not our fault that we sin (if indeed we do).  It is like God is saying that a particular nationality is going to hell.  People cannot help who their parents are.  Or all the brown eyed people are going to hell.  Eye color is a matter of genetics.  Of course you can get colored contacts now.

Serena, have you ever tried reading Marcus Borg?  The Heart of Christianity, for example.   He has a different way of understanding God that gets beyond the traditional intervening-omnipotent God understanding, and he makes it all comprehensible.  He's given a lot of people a new faith when they thought their only alternative was to turn their back on God altogether.  (I'm one of them).  

Aquilla:

You do realize don't you that in a thread that is supposed to be about love and grace that you are making God out to be a controlling, abusive husband?  The kind that says to his wife who wants to leave the relationship that he will will track her down and kill brutally one day IF she dares to leave because he owns her.   It is best to get out of a relationship like that even if it is feet first.

This is off topic of the thread but you were all hysterical about a paternity test so if your boyfriend was really a girlfriend than why would a paternity test bother you?

I am curious as well why after all this time you tell us this.  Is it for shock value or did it really happen?

I agree with this.

If God is alive why does He need us to do anything for Him?  Why can't He do it Himself?

I think all death is unnecessary.

At the moment of conception we were catapulted out from some other realm and our adventure on earth began. We will squander all knowledge of where we came from and live vicariously, only to become stardust, molecules and whatever else, once again when we die. We will return to our original home. And there will be room for us within the void that was created when we left. 

If we were given the opportunity, then it is only to increase our understanding.

Okay, I really don't recall just what you're talking about here. It seems off topic.

God calls us all to stop our rebellion against Him. He gives us grace, the power to believe in Jesus Christ, through several different conduits. We cannot blame God if we do not choose to accept said grace. We must answer for that decision.

If I have done as you suggest, Serena, then I have not worded myself well. It's my deep and sincere conviction that God loves each and every one of us.

This is the post Serena was speaking of. I agree with her.

What a coincidence.  That's exactly what Iran is calling for from its opposition.

Please feel free to rephrase your statement then.

The thing is GOD gave us a way out of hell, salvation. There are a lot of views/analogies for GOD. My personal favorite is that of a loving father (because my baby is the light of my life) but there are others. One good one is to look at JESUS as our defense attorney in a court room. The evidence is presented, we are found guilty (because we are guilty) and then JESUS stands up for us and demands that the sentence be cast aside because the penalty was paid in full on the cross. All we have to do is accept that gift of salvation.

Well said, jon. Amen and amen.

Actually, at this point I would disagree. That sounds to me like a salvation by works rather than faith. At one point my theology was of the need-to-accept-Jesus kind, that I must admit. Now I see things differently.

It is faith in Christ that saves, and that faith comes as a gift from the Holy Spirit. For this reason I believe it is an error to say that we are saved if we choose to accept salvation. I believe rather that we have faith because God saves us.