Welcome to Wondercafe, matt4630!

I agree with regarding your comment on forcing beliefs on others.  I support providing information to people about various aspects of Christianity and religion etc. with the intention that they can take this information and make an informed choice to decide whether it is compatible with their values and existing beliefs.  Forcing religious beliefs on others creates an atmosphere of fear and repression, which is simply wrong and not what I believe is the Christian way.

I totaly get you about the tooth fairy and company. But even as an atheist you would have to admit that God is on a totally different level than those clowns.

My parents let me discover things on my own. And as an adult, after examining the evidence and being convinced of my own sinful nature, I made Jesus my Lord and Saviour. Sure I went to church as a child, but it was never forced upon me.

Hang around, Jesus and God have alot more depth and amazing answers than Santa or the Easter Bunny ever did.

Welcome!

Amen, waterfall

Welcome - there is a complex and interesting issue of force - of course force is wrong and no one should be forced to believe.  There are many persuasive arguments for God when you drop the supernatural big guy in the sky image - but that is not what I want to examine.

It is the idea of it is wrong to take children to church - to follow the logic it is wrong to send them to school. to make them go to bed, to brush their teeth, to do their home work, to get dressed in the morning - you get the logic - of course it should be a family activity, not sending them to church - but participating in an important activity  - if it is not then don’t send.

And Pan this is also one of the problems. In this day and age - not like a small town in the 50's or in cities that had churches on every street corner - you can't just SEND kids to church. So No Parents - No Kids.

Hi Matt, and welcome to wondercafe!

Well, if you are an atheist, then you are in very good company. The very best company, in fact: God is an atheist!

God does not believe in God, and God denies the existence of God.

Welcome to the club!

Greetings!

A great big wondercafe welcome, matt4630!  I hope you plan on getting into some more discussions here on wondercafe - it will be interesting to learn more from you, and hopefully you can also learn something from me.  I think you will find that there will be some that don't hold the same views as you, and some that do.  Some will be respectful of your views and not try to convince you of anything, others might not be respectful, and there also may be others that will try and change your opinion.  But, I think for the most part, just like anyone else of any particular belief system, you will be accepted for who you are and what you believe and welcomed into all discussions.

Personally, I do believe in God . . . and Jesus . . . and the Holy Spirit.  When I look back on my life I know there where times when I was forceful in my discussions with others about  my faith, what I believed, and my zeal to convince them of the same - black was black, white was white.  I am older now, somewhat wiser, have a little bit more life experience behind me, and have grown in my relationship and understanding of God.  And I am in place where I share my faith in welcoming opportunities and when I am asked, but no longer in a place of judgement, criticism, or downright attempts to try to change another's personal belief because of a beliefe that mine is the "right" one.

I did raise my children in the church and in Sunday School and I don't feel bad about doing that because I believed that they needed a foundation, and because I was trying to live a christian life and belonged to a christian church that is where I took them.  As their parent I did what I believed as my part . . . they are adults now and their faith walk is up to them.

I did find it interesting that you started your topic starter with "hello God . . . ".

Hope, peace, joy, love . . .

Greetings!

You may have explained this before Arminius, but if so . . . I missed it!  I found your statements very interesting, but need some explanation.

Hope, peace, joy, love,

hi wellcome to wondercafe, the problem i find with this is , from my experance as a parent rasing 4 kids, if parents dont instll there values and beliefes on there kids (hopefully good ones), the world will anways, so regardless a child will be manipulated, either by the world or by there parents, kids are like a sponge.

Matt4630

Well written, and thank you.

I remember similar fears of being sent to Hell when I was young. A small part of that fear came from the church I went to at the time, but most of it came from Catholic friends.

Instilling fear in anyone, of any age, is a terrible part of some organized religions.

You are correct in believing that your initial spiritual beliefs are instilled with your parent's influence. But most people, as they age, get over that very rapidly. Most, if they can get over the fear of being allowed to think, learn to think religion through. I dumped religion when I was a teenager and headed off on my own exploration of spirituality. I never really came back to the standard beliefs and have, over a 45 year period, developed my own version. But I also freqently go to church too, partly in the hope of updating the beliefs of others.

Oh yes, I am a strong believer in God!

Welcome to the WC, matt4630!  I, like many others I'm sure, am very much looking forward to discussions with you - the open-minded atheist is always a refreshing perspective. 

I will admit that yes, I grew up in the church as well.  But I never felt forced to go, and I think that was due to what Panentheism and crazyheart brought up - participation.  My parents were very involved, and my sisters and I learned very early how to make ourselves helpful in the community.  As a result we all still attend our childhood church regularly and are happy to do so.  I know it isn't the case with everyone, especially those who see worship as something to do privately, or those who have lost faith in the doctrines they learned as a child.  But it's great to see someone willing to talk about it so openly.  Again, welcome!

Farren

When Arminius  says "God does not believe in God, and God denies the existence of God." he is offering a zen comment - however, it does not get at the metaphysical question of the ontology of God - that is is there a divine reality we experience both as more than what is, is in existence,  is in mystery, and is related to this world - that God is a relational reality with God's own agency and agenda and is felt by us and is influenced by us.  The metaphor could be seen this way - you are you and I am me, each of us having existence, and that by the nature of reality connected in the web of life, thus having some influence on one another. God is the supreme example of this reality - is and is related, both the nature of God.  In this sense God cannot deny God existence but the zen thought does get rid of the old supernatural image of God that most of us, theists and atheists, reject.

That's the problem.

You make that statement based on your perception of God, not his.

You don't believe in the easter bunny, and the toorh fairy, and so you relegate them to childish tales. You believe in God,and so you place that perception on a higher level.

The atheist does not believe in God. From an atheists perspective, God and the Easter bunny are on the same level. Therefore your "you would have to admit" statement is not relevant. They don't have to admit, nor would it even occur to them to suggest, that God and the Easter Bunny are not on the same level.

The reason most theists don't understand atheists, is because they cannot see from the atheist perspective. You cannot walk a mile in a person's shoes, unless you actually put his shoes on

Good point Witch.

And cf, I remember as a kid there was a lot more empirical evidence for Santa and the Easter Bunny than there was for god. All three had the fact that everyone I knew told me they were real (which is hard evidence at that age) but Santa and the Easter Bunny also left traces of their existence. Santa left me presents and the EB left me chocolate. I don't remember god leaving me anything tangible. So in a way, Santa and the EB are on a much higher plane than god because there is actual empirical evidence that they exist.

lol, yeah, but hte emprical evidence pointed to a masquerador, killer_rabbit.

anyhow, i echo the welcome from others, and look forward to dialogue at some point.

I  went through a journey from & around churched, atheist, agnostic, questioner, seeker...and still am wondering..so, who knows, we may have similair questions.

matt4630 wrote: I was forced to go to church at a very young age, and I was warped by it.  I thought God would kill me or send me to hell for the smallest thing I did wrong. 

EZ Answer: Welcome to WonderCafe.  For me, the issue involves the kind of God the child is taught.  Bringing a child to church doesn't necessarily lead to fear of death and damnation.  But bringing a child to a church and teaching in death and damnation -- that increases the probability of fear.

My take on the Easter Bunny and Santa issue is different.  A developing belief in God is, for me, more like a child waking up one morning and realizing her parents are not the idealized people she'd been believing in all these years.  At a certain age, I could no longer maintain my belief in "perfect" parents.  But I needed only to readjust the concept of my parents, rather than ceasing to believe that any relationship is possible with them.

In fact, abandoning the inadequate belief and adopting a more realistic one was essential for sustaining a functional, healthy relationship with my parents (who are great).  My parents didn't change.  But my concept did.

Assalaam Alaiykum matt4630.  welcome to WonderCafe!

Here you will find a eclectic variety of beliefs (and non-beliefs).  Pull up a chair, and make yourself at home, I shan't force my religion up on you, and I would hope no one else would!  I'm happy to meet a nice atheist, as much as I would be to meet a nice christian, or nice jew, or nice zoroastrian :)

Again, welcome, Bismillah al-rahman al-rahim, may you enjoy your stay!

-Omni

Pan: This was meant tongue-in-cheek

Of course, God can't possibly deny God's existence. I make outrageous remarks like that just to shake people out of their complacency and cause them to examine their belief in the supernatural God. If, as you say, most modern Christians no longer believe in the supernatural God--great!

Why would an atheist talk to God??

You don't seem to understand what an atheist is??

Welcome to the cafe, Matt.  Yay, another atheist!

Arminius: Why the common sense all of a sudden?  God can TOTALLY deny his own existence!  He's theoretically omnipotent, right?

consumingfire and waterfall: I am DEEPLY OFFENDED by your comments about Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny.  What the hey, guys.  Would you say that about Allah?  Or the Buddha?  Or the Hindu gods?  Would you have someone say that to you about Jesus?

Like killer_rabbit, I stopped believing in God before I stopped believing in Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny.  (Although, not the tooth fairy.  The notion of a tooth fairy just seems to clash with all the original Celtic fairy lore.  Why does he/she want teeth anyway?  Why would a fairy carry human cash?)  

Either way, you are majorly underestimating the depth of Santa Claus.  He is, like God, a figure to provide comfort and joy, and also a source of moral guidance and enforcement.  As Jesus embodies values of mercy and grace he embodies values of generosity.

As for the Easter Bunny, he/she was originally a RELIGIOUS SYMBOL - the rabbit representing Eostre, pagan goddess of spring, for whom Easter was actually named (the church adapting pagan holidays and symbolism again).

Seriously, guys.  Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny RULE.

blackbelt: Please tell me what's wrong with the values you think reality might teach kids.  What makes you so sure your values are right?  Just out of curiosity - I wanna hear your argument.

Hello matt4630............God bless you.......

Hi matt......welcome to wondercafe....... I am sorry you had the experience that you had growing up.....when I was young.....my parents did not send me to church....but when Gods people came to our door.......it scared the crap out of me.......fire and brimstone was the teaching of my young life and I thought I was bad always trying to be good....or I would go to hell or whereever ...at the time......

But my mon did not teach God but she taught Gods principles.....be a good person....be kind, be loving...be generous...do not lye .....do not hurt others......love the Lord and love others.....

I believe this is what christian churches are teaching.(most.) and with a grandchild on the way....I pray he/she will be shown the ways of God....have the opportunity to learn this way...not being taught about hell and sin and badness.....this does happen...I know ....but I must have faith that the Lord , now He is in my life will teach and guide me ....I believe there are more wonderful christians who dedicate to the Lord than those who dont....

Thanks guys for sharing ......God bless you....

I also believe that all people are on their own path with God/Awesome Cosmos, I am.......Supernatural, Mystical..........

Awesome God We Serve.....

IJL:bg

ShamanWolf: God, to me, is creative energy. I would rather just call IT "creative energy."  The term "God" carries too much heavy baggage, we'll never get anywhere with it. That's why God is an atheist. 

By the way, science is just on the verge of proving that energy is creative.

Witch wrote: "You cannot walk a mile in a person's shoes, unless you actually put his shoes on"

Who says I haven't?

SW said that Santa Clause is a source of moral guidance and enforcement.

Are you kidding. He is fat and smokes a pipe. Yeah, what a great role model. He most likely has high cholesterol, high blood pressure and emphysema. Does he drink Fair Trade egg nogg? He leaves a lump of cole in your stocking if you have been naughty and sees you when you are sleeping. That is kind of disturbing. Not to mention that kids only behave because of what they can get from him, and he reinforces that behaviour by leaving them presents. If Santa was truly loving and provided a source of comfort, there would be no threat of lumps of cole. And what about the poor, they don't get NEAR as many gifts as the rich. Where is the sense of justice in that!!! And what about the poor elves. Are they unionized? Do they get fair wages? Who says they WANT to be working in Santa's sweatshop? I remember as a child geting many toys from "Santa's workshop" that were really made in China. What a stinkin' rip off. Don't even get me started on the Reindeer. I will leave that to PETA.

That is of course unless you are talking about St. Nicholas, the Christian saint and Bishop of Myra in Lycia of Anatolia. Then I TOTALY get you.

And. If the Easter Bunny looks anything like the bunny from "Donnie Darko", he can keep his stinkin' chocolate. Who says the Easter Bunny is all cute and cuddly? Has anybody really seen him? Do you really know what is in the "chocolate" he leaves? Sure, you can read the ingredience on the package, but how do you know he isn't injecting a little something of his own making into it? Would you eat chocolate you found in the street? Nooooo sir, no bunny chocolate for me. He doesn't even care about your health. He leave "chocolate" and "candy". In these times of childhood obesity, would it not be better to leave carrot sticks and fuit instead. Perhaps the Easter Bunny can leave insulin and diabetic socks for all the children he poisons.

The fat of our youth is on the Easter Bunny's paws.

You don't even want to know what I read in a magazine about the Tooth Fairy. Let's just say she is not as innocent as she makes herself out to be (if you know what I mean), and a little something about misappropriation of funds. And what is a tooth pulling in these days? I bet kids are gettin' ripped off. The rich keep gettin' richer.

killer. And did you call your parents liars when you found out that the Easter bunny and Santa Clause did not exist? Did you discover on your own they did not exist, or did somebody tell you?  I am willing to bet however that people don't tell their children God exists, only to pull the plug when they are older. The difference being that their parents believe in the existence of God.  Most people believe themselves out of beilef.

It's funny. A lot of people say that when they got older and more educated, they stopped believing in God. When I got older and more educated, the more I believed God really did exist (as is the case for other people as well). I became a Christian while I was in university, the same place a lot of people say they gave up such "foolishness."

Punkins and everyone else!!!

It is a breath of fresh air to hear this coming from a religious person!  thank you for not shouting at me like most do!

yours,

Matt

Hello matt......God bless you .......

I believe the easter bunny, the tooth fairy, santa clause.....are all fun times that grows a child's

imagination......books depict these things as fantasy....and I believe as the children grow...they learn...that these existed as a way to play and expand imagination.....

how many children still believe in santa clause once they grew into adolestant.....it is all fantasy..

IJL:bg

I hear Yahweh has every STD i existence and passed them all onto Marry. That's real nice.

God wanted to fix the population crisis with a tsunami in the Indian Ocean. He also seems to hate Mexicans and Americans because there's a lot of hurricane activity in the Gulf Coast.

God sees you when you're sleeping AND when your awake. I heard he tapes the good parts and sells them to Lucifer at a high price.

They don't seem to be getting anything from god either.

I could say the same about angels and devils.

My sister was actually skeptical before I was, however, her bedroom was closer to where the tree was than mine so she had an edge there. Even when we said we knew he wasn't real, we still got presents from Santa. The same with the Easter bunny, except that now the chocolate is in a basket on the kitchen table on Easter morning instead of hidden somewhere.

wow.  i am amazed at the quick feedback and the debate that sparked out of the easter bunny and santa clause comment...  ok.... i'm just going to make some points....

First - my topic was a catchy slogan...nothing more... i am surprised by the comment that I must not know what an Athiest is.  I thought it was a clear paradox but i will be more careful in the future! lol

second - I was slightly panicked at the beginning, it would be like one of you in a forum with only athiests lol.  but I am very glad to have some other Athiests to help me with some of my ideas and thoughts.

thirdly - I was intrested by witch and Killer_rabbit79's posts.  Witch is correct in their statement that an Athiest's mind classifies God as belonging to the same level as the easter bunny and santa claus. Killer said

"I remember as a kid there was a lot more empirical evidence for Santa and the Easter Bunny than there was for god. All three had the fact that everyone I knew told me they were real (which is hard evidence at that age) but Santa and the Easter Bunny also left traces of their existence. Santa left me presents and the EB left me chocolate. I don't remember god leaving me anything tangible. So in a way, Santa and the EB are on a much higher plane than god because there is actual empirical evidence that they exist. "

This is much like my beliefs as a child.  I have since grown and tried to find evidence of God's working's in MY life, (I say MY life because I am sure some people have car accident stories or such that they survived and so therefore God exists, but I have no evidence in MY life.)  And my largest concern was that many say that the Bible is proof of God existing, yet it was written by men, hundereds of years after the events took place.

Four - this point hasn't been brought up yet but I have it on my mind, the bible.  I urge many to look on YOu Tube for "Penn and Teller Bullshit Bible".  I do not mean to tred on anyones feelings by having the word "Bullshit" in there but that is what their show is called.  In this show they delve into the bible and ask questions like "How could Noah gather and fit all 10 billion species on a boat?". 

I am sure that I have forgetten many more arguments but I must be getting to sleep.  I work night shift so I sleep in the day and work at night.  but I will stay posted.

I hope very much that I did not hurt anyone's feelings or anythigng.  I honestly and not trying to do that.  I just have very strong beliefs in this matter and I am very protective of them. 

I will talk to you soon,

Matt

killer. Why are you under the impression that God causes all the natural disasters and STD's? I don't believe He does.

Oh, and dude. I am just having some fun broseph. Sarcastic wit and all.

matt. No offence but, Penn and Teller are hardly serious Biblical Scholars and I believe lack even basic Biblical understanding. It is fine they ask questions but they attack the Bible with such glee and delight that it would be hard for me to think them unbiased. Also, Penn took the "Holy Ghost" challenge on youtube in which he believes that if he denies the Holy Spirit, he can never be forgiven by God, thereby sealing his fate. That just goes to show how ignorant he is about the ways of God. Plus, why should I listen to two people (well one really) who Bullshit others for a living. They are however entitled to their own opinion.

killer. The charges I have leveled against good ole Santa are some of the same that have been leveled against God. I am merely reversing the questioning. Why should Santa go unchallenged?  Plus, could the name Santa be an anagram for Satan?  

I guess what i am saying is this. We tell our children not to lie.But, when we tell them that there is a fat man (human and mortal)) who travels around on a sled pulled by reindeer (animal and mortal), who leaves presents for all the children of the world in one night (those that celebrate Christmas), what are we doing? We are lying. When we tell our children that there is a giant bunny (animal and mortal) who hopps around, breaking into peoples homes and leaves them chocolate and candy, what are we doing? We are lying. And we perpetuate these lies when we tell our children that it is all true.

But, when we teach our children (for those of us who do) about God (divine) and Jesus Christ (fully human and fully divine) we are teaching our children about what we believe is the truth, not perpetuating a lie.

I stumbled over onto this thread while searching for EZed the squirrel (I kid you not).

Anyway, found the last few posts fascinating, although I have not read the whole thread. Matt 4630...the thing about throwing around your Bible argument is that you're in the wrong forum for it to stick. Not that you're in the wrong forum by any means! Welcome and high-fives and handshakes 'n'all...

But the thing is - United Church of Canada scholars do not support the idea that the Bible is historically and scientifically true, nor was it ever meant to be. That does not, however, make it bullshit. Oh sure, there's some bullshit in it...just like there's a fair bit of bullshit in Richard Dawkin's book.  By way of example, when the Lord says to Aaron in the book of Leviticus "drink no wine or strong drink" this is bullshit.

However, the Bible is a wonderfully woven collection of stories, wisdom, customs, laws (although the majority is story)...all of which attest to the relationship that people have had throughout the ages with God - the way they see God, experience God and relate to God. People of all religions believe that their Scriptures also have a "holy quality" about them that we call "sacrament". It is mysterious, but wonderful at the same time.

So we interpret the Scriptures metaphorically...and in that way we bring out their power and mystery...and God speaks.

As an atheist I assume you don't believe that God exists anyway, so how can God speak through the Scriptures. Therefore you are well within your mindset to claim that they are all "bullshit". No problemo. Just don't wave around the "Noah couldn't put every animal on the ark" argument at wondercafe. We know that dude.

Hello matt4630 and welcome to WonderCafe.ca

Can you unpack this a little bit more?  Like yourself I grew up in a home that had the tooth fairy, Easter Bunny, Santa Clause and God but there seemed to be something of a dividing line as far as I understood it.

Primarily the tooth fairy came when you put teeth under your pillow.  The Easter bunny comes only on Easter and likewise Santa Clause only comes once a year.  God, however; was more of a full time 24/7 character.

Also, there is something of a scam going on with Santa, Bunny and Fairy.  One that gets found when you start to recognize that Santa's handwriting looks more like mom's or dad's than it does a strangers.  After a while the tooth fairy shows some ageism in that in your teen years if you place a tooth under your pillow it rarely gets exchanged for anything.

What kind of stunts do we pull in the attempt to convince kids of the reality of God?

Do we dispatch Gramma to a hospital bed, hook her up to a heart monitor that is remotely controlled to flatline so that she can appear to die, we can pray for a miracle and suddenly the old gal's heart starts beating, she leaps out of the bed and is miraculously cured?

Yeah it might work with spot the goldfish living an incredibly long, long time.  Much longer than any other goldfish has ever lived but seriously I've never heard of anyone telling their kids that Jesus resurrected spot while Great gramma gertie is still throwing up the daisies.

Even weirder is that with God we try to teach our kids to have a relationship.  True we do write notes to Santa but that isn't really to inquire about his cholesteral levels or the impact of global warming on his toy workshop it is simply to provide him with a list of things that he can bring us.  Sometimes prayer can seem a lot like that but I think you will find that the longest traditions of prayer are not so much gimmee, gimmee, gimmee as they are, "hello friend . . ."

So for me there was obviously something different even though on some level there is an appeal to sameness.

Cussing is also another give away.

We'll give God and Jesus an earful but not the toothfairy or the Easter Bunny or Santa Clause.  Getting angry at imaginary things seems a little ridiculous not so much if there is really something to get mad at.  Not a very convincing proof I realize but it could point to the seed of something.

Sure, likely that is true.  How does that make the belief wrong though?  I've heard lots of parents scold their children for running with objects like pencils in their hands saying that if they fall they could poke their eye out.  I've never seen it happen nore have I ever met any who claimed that they lost their eyes doing that very thing.  Sounds believeable though doesn't it?

In my job I hang around a lot of dying people.  Some handle it well others are a mess.  Some even in their last agonizing moments are holding on to the idea of a God who will meet them.  It gives them hope and maybe meaning.  Those are real things even if God isn't.

While most parents don't believe in Santa, Easter and Tooth for all the same reasons you and I have learned not to there are many who don't feel that they have been able to disqualify belief in God at the same level.  I'm not saying you are wrong and they are all right because I believe the many can be wrong as easily as the one can be.

What would you suggest as an alternative.  If the parents believe and presumeably they do or they wouldn't be attending church why is it wrong to include children in that particular community?  We don't forbid Americans from keeping their children in America.  Imagine how the world could benefit from Americans in general having a better awareness of and appreciation for things that aren't draped in red, white and blue bunting every July 4.  Instead we allow them to raise their children under the narrow blanket of patriotism where global geographical awareness is limited only to those nations where there is or has been military conflict and the Americans are/were a part of it. 

Yes and no.  The child will be able to make a decision based on what they have been exposed to.  Expose them to nothing and that is what is chosen.  But look at your own arguments.  You were exposed to Santa Clause, toothfairy and Easter Bunny yet you were able to escape those.  If God is more of the same why do we need to take extra steps to keep children away from it?

Do I need to erect a barrier in my front yard to keep people from getting too close to the manticore that lurks in it?

If I accept that at face value how do I know that what you say isn't warped in some way?  I think you are in earnest about what you do believe but how do I know that your earnestly held belief isn't warped itself?  How do I know that you haven't made some mistake somewhere?

I don't think that forcing a child to go to church is a good thing.  I don't think that leaving the kid home alone is always a good thing either.  I know of no child who enjoys going to the dentist, I still have to force mine to go but I know what will happen if they do not go until the pain is unbearable.  I raise that because both are parents forcing their will on their children but you appear to lable one as being manipulative.  What about the other parent?

Well, the atheists do seem to jump all over that kind of depiction of God but you know something, theists were there way ahead of them.  Here's something else that is interesting.  The concept of the scorekeeper God, though it is ridiculously old keeps getting reinvented in every age primarily by those who do not put a lot of stock in critical thought.

The scriptures of the Hebrew and Greek testaments are constantly bashing the idea of a God who is contantly constipated and looking to take his discomfort out on the first slob who gets in range.  The book of Job which is widely considered to be the oldest book of the Bible turns the whole idea of a punishing and vengeful God squarely on its ear.  The great bulk of the prophets are constantly singing the praises of a God who is rightly pissed but still reigns it in long enough to promise that he will not be angry forever and one day the mercy of God will flow like a river.  By the time you get to the Gospels you need a special kind of wilfull myopeia to be able to miss all the overatures of love God makes.

So, maybe it isn't the existence of God per se that you are standing up against so much as it is a particular image of God which is only that?

Issues of belief and/or unbelief are something that I can take lightly.  I consider it to be very serious stuff.  That doesn't mean that I can't have fun with it or approach it in a relaxed manner.  Bring your questions and I am sure we will do the best we can to engage them even if we cannot answer them.

Fair warning first.  Not everyone here is up for these kinds of discussions and not everyone has the grace to let them happen without trying to find some jab that will hurt you.  For the most part folk here are pretty relaxed and capable of discussing.  I don't want to poison the well I just want you to be aware.  We are all human here and that means that no matter how hard we try there will always be an element of unpredictability in this place.

That seems very reasonable.  You might want to check your responses for a bit though.  You might be surprised to find that while there are a good many who would identify as Christian here not all Christians are the same.  If one of us attacks you I am confident another one of us would attack your attacker instead of piling on.  Though there are some who will pile one.  Watching a Christian come to your aid in the face of an attack by another Christian might answer some of your questions or it might furnish you with some new ones.

Well, for the sake of conversation we don't have a lot of children participating here at the WonderCafe.  A fair number who act like children we admittedly have.  I think that their parents should have forced them to grow up but that wasn't my call . . .

If you want to outline how you think the normative practice of including children can only be negative I think that would be an interesting conversation.

I think I understand where you are coming from and have grasped the points that you are trying to make.

Once again, welcome to WonderCafe.ca I hope you enjoy your time here.

Thank you for posting.  Thanks also for sharing how you found your way to the WonderCafe.ca.  We have some members who like to complain about what a waste of money our advertising strategy is.  By sharing your story you help us to show them how they couldn't be more wrong.

Grace and peace to you.

John

...why is it bullshit...? O.O

Assalaam Alaiykum

-Omni

Welcome, Matt. I go back and forth with similar thoughts. I don't think belief in God is rational or rationally proven, though. My faith is more based on my experience of the divine, which some might interpret as brainwave activity that is shared by all. I quite frankly, don't know what to think but I do know that, on the sensory level, something is going on. I just don't know what it is -- God? Altered brain states?

I don't know but I find it interesting to participate here to hear the thoughts of others on the subject.

killer said:"I could say the same about angels and devils."

Angels and devils have free will. I am not so sure about Santa's elves.

Omni...I've been honored to be reading your responses and contributions on here for quite some time now. Please, pleeeeeeeeeeease don't shatter my illisions and lead me to the conclusion that Muslims have no sense of humour.

Because United Church Ministers can trace their beginings to the Levites.

 - I can also trace my beginnings to the god Bacchus

LOL. Is there something we should all know LoveJoy? Do we need an intervention?

I've always thought that ministers & good scotch go well together :)

Welcome Mike!  I guess you've found a bunch of people who would love to talk with you, atheist or not.  (BTW Anyone seen Atheisto lately??)

Re:  truth/bible/factuality/literalism... how's this:  I don't believe in the fire & brimstone God in the sky either.  I'd like to say about what I've learned from the bible, and many many other good sources, includling such wisdom as Horton hears a Who...  (quoting Marcus Borg)  "I don't know if it happened this way or not, but I know this story is true"

I have kids.  They go to church.  And I teach them to wonder & ask questions.  They have learned that the Spirit is about making the world a better place, and they are loved.  Beyond that, we ask questions about everything.    By the way, If you think you have answers, I have questions for every one of them :)

So...I can trace my ancestry to a bunch of drunk-ass germans and scots...but I don't drink...O.O

lol :)  I get the joke I was just playing you guys :D

Assalaam Alaiykum

-Omni