Hi Jaron:

I think Paganism is a valid spiritual expression, as valid as Christianity.

I would agree with Arminius, Jaron, although I don't know much about Paganism specifically. You're right in thinking that the majority here are Christians (it is a United Church sponsored website, after all) but the kind of Christianity represented is as varied as there are Christians here. That's what great about this site...it's aim is to be inclusive...and, at its best, it does accomplish that. Unfortunately, some don't understand either the value in that or the call to Love and difficulties arise from that. So, you will see lots of interesting conversations and conflict.

Welcome - I look forward to hearing more about your views.

Hello Jaron and welcome to the WonderCafe,

First and foremost all are welcome to enter this place.

Hospitality rules.

If any are poor guests they are soon made unwelcome.

We have a widerange of viewpoints shared here and, for the most part, all are able to converse well enough.

Nobody is banned from this place because of their point of view.  People will be shoved towards the door if their behaviour is offensive or, having been offended others are content to just leave.

Folk may not always agree with you.  So long as you are respectful and courteous they shouldn't have any problem with you being here.

Grace and peace to you.

John

Jaron,

Well, I find a really good way is to take a mandarin. Now, stick some cloves all over it.
 

Now, go to a pagan and offer the mandarin to them.
 

And watch how they take a piece.
 

Each of them does it differently :3
 

Just a Self-writing poem,
Inannawhimsey

Darn InannaWhimsey you posted my personal favourite.

Pagans - like 'em.

Love'em, but then I'm not a Christian myself (I'm Unitarian Universalist). My UU church has two pagans who are active members and they ran a great Summer Solstice service a couple weeks back.

I've found that non-Christians are quite welcome on Wondercafe and some of the Christians have more in common with UUs and pagans than you might think.

Mendalla

Yes, Mendalla, I quite agree.

Hi Jaron...I think I only know one so far and his name is witch on this site.  He's great and I've learned a bit about his beliefs and certainly connect with the nature aspect of paganism.  I'd be interested to learn more...how 'bout it?

Well, I'm not very good at articulating, so I'll give you a whole wack of links to look over. Here's My Site: Paganism in the 21st Century

Wicca + Paganism Links:

Blessed Be

The Celtic Connection

Pagan and Wiccan sabbats and holidays

Witches' Voice Inc

Another aspect of my path is Chaos magic. Here'a a great page with 100s of links

http://www.chaosmatrix.org/library/chaos_all.php

In my path I like to look at all the paths pf the world, find what is true, and then live by it. For me, the most true is Wicca, Paganism and Nature. Secondarily I respect the power that Chaos (Or randomness, if you want) has in daily life. (Ever wondered how string gets so tangled??) The teachings of Bhudda and the Dalai Lama are wonderful as well. Heck, even Jesus had some stuff going for him

Cheers,

Jaron

Greetings!

Like abpenny, my only experience with anyone who is Pagan is on this site with Witch . . . and I also have learned a lot from Witch.  I would be interested in learning more about you, Jason.  I'm sure we'd find there are things in our beliefs and understandings we'd agree and things we wouldn't . . . just like each and every poster here on Wondercafe.

Question for Witch or Jason . . . is paganism and wiccan the same thing?

Hope, peace, joy, love . . .

I'm, sorry Jaron but before I can comment on them I'll have to know who they are.  Maybe if you provided a few names I might know one of them ...

Beloved,

Wiccans would be considered Pagans, but not all Pagans are Wiccan.  So no, they are not the same thing. 

Well, during the next inquisition they've got to have SOMEBODY to burn at the stake!  Of course, in the next inquisition they'll be torturing CHRISTIANS!!!!

Just Fundies, southpaw. Wishy-washy Progressives aren't real Christians.

Now I'm off to church, wishy-washy washed and all.

Talk to you later.

How to disentangle Wicca from Satanism? Can it be done? The former just happens to pre-date Christianity, but the latter actively opposes it. If Wiccans are witches, they practise witchraft ... correct? And witchcraft is anathema to Christians because of its satanic associations. Nazis are German, but not all Germans are Nazis. Devil-worshippers are Pagan, but not all Pagans are devil-worshippers.

I've been told that the pentagram is Satanic while the pentacle is just Pagan, perfectly innocuous. Apparently, it's all about the position of the five points of the star. 1 point up = good. Two points up = bad.

I've been told that pagan religions like Wicca had nothing to do with satanism until the Church came along and painted them all as worshippers of the Christian devil. A character assasination from which they've never recovered. I dunno, is the Christian Church evil? At one time, it was. But it should be remembered that the church is run by men, men who are not immune to all the sins they preach against.

Progressives are content with being the Light, but do they balk at being the Salt? Not everyone likes salt, so compromises are made.

Salt = Flavour. Christianity (in its pure state) has a distinctive flavour. We've all probably lost that flavour which the Gospel spoke of ....

Merry Meet, Jaron.....

....from a once Dianic Wiccan.  I didn't discard that tradition -- yes folks, I'm a bone fide, but non-practicing witch (ok, so I celebrate both Solstices, and Beltane, and Samain...), and it informed my current hybrid faith by bringing in the dimensions of Divine Feminine and Earth-based spirituality.

Most of the Pagans I've met are remarkably open to, and learn from many traditions (First Nations, Buddhist etc). 

Good to "meet" you.

One of my students was into Wicca and gave me some background information.  I didn't realize modern Wicca is only about 50 years old, the form that is the fastest growing religion, or at least was a couple of years ago. 

My son was a self-described Norse Pagan for a few years, but now he is nothing at all -- for him religion is just an intellectual curiosity at this point on his faith journey.  A Lutheran pastor friend said he was a Norse Pagan when he was a teen -- Just that darn Norwegian blood expressing itself!

Your question was about "feel" -- for most people on this site, I suspect the answer would be curious and welcoming.  We tend to be less accepting of those who are close to us in doctrine, but threateningly different in some small way.

Okay now we have a name.  Based on my dealings with ninjafaery I would have to say that Pagans are good, decent and honourable people and that paganism can provide spiritual benefits.

Here are a few examples of Pagan / Wiccan sacred poetry.  For anyone who is interested.

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Hear the words from the Great Mother, who was of old called amongst men: Isis, Artemis, Astarte, Dione, Melusine, Aphrodite, Diana, Arionrhod, and by many other names.

Whenever you have need of anything and better it be if the moon is full, shall ye gather in some secret place to adore the Spirit of Me, Queen of all Witcheries.

Ye shall be free from all slavery and as a sign that you be free ye shall be naked in your rites.

Ye shall sing and feast, make music and love, all in my presence, for Mine is the ecstacy of the spirit and Mine also is joy upon earth.

My Law is love unto all beings.

Mine is the secret that opens upon the door of youth, and Mine is the cup of the wine of life, the Cauldron of Cerridwyn, which is the hloy grail of immortality.

I am the Gracious Goddess who gives the gift of youth unto the heart of mankind.

I give knowledge of the spirit eternal, and beyond death I give peace and freedom and reunion with those who have gone before.

Nor do I demand sacrifice, for behold, I am the Mother of all things and my love is poured out upon the earth.

Hear ye the words of the Star Goddess, She, in the dust of whose feet are the host of heaven, whose Body encircles the universe.

I am the beauty of the Green Earth, and the White Moon among the stars and the Mystery of the Waters.

I call unto they soul: Arise and come unto me: for I am the Soul of Nature who gives life to the Universe: from me all things proceed, and unto me all things return.

Beloved of all Gods and men, let my worship be in the heart.

Rejoice, for behold, all acts of love and pleasure are my rituals. Therefore let there be beauty and strength, power and compassion, honor and humility, mirth and reverence within you.

And you who think to seek me, Know that your seeking and yearning shall be in vain, unless you know the Mystery, that if that which you seek you find not within yourself, you will never find it without.

For behold, I have been with you from the beginning, and I am that which is attained at the end of desire.

Wiccan Rede (long Version)

Bide the Wiccan Law ye must,

In Perfect Love and Perfect Trust;

Live ye must and let to live,

Fairly take and fairly give.

True in love, ever be,

Lest thy love be false to thee.

With a fool no season spend,

Nor be counted as his friend.

Soft of eye and light of touch,

Speak ye little, listen much.

Ever mind the rule of three,

What ye send out comes back to thee.

This lesson well, thou must learn

Ye only get what ye do earn.

Eight words the Wiccan Rede fulfill -

An it harm none, do as ye will.

Deosil go by waxing Moon,

Sing and dance the invoking Rune;

Widdershins go by waning Moon,

Chant ye then a freeing tune;

When the Lady's Moon is new,

Kiss thy hand to Her times two;

When the Bow rides in the eve

Turn to what you would achieve;

When the Moon rides at her peak,

Then thy heart's desire seek;

When the Sickle shows Her face

Release the old with proper grace.

Heed the North wind's mighty gale,

Lock the door & trim the sail;

When the wind comes from the South,

Love will kiss thee on the mouth;

When the wind blows from the West,

Hearts will find their peace and rest;

When the wind blows from the East,

Expect the new and set the feast.

Nine woods in the Cauldron go,

Burn them quick and burn them slow;

Birch and fir and apple tree,

Hawthorn is sacred to Thee,

Willow, hazel, rowan, grape,

And oak will shape the weave of fate;

Elder be the Lady's tree -

Burn it not or cursed ye'll be.

Heed ye flower, bush, and tree,

By the Lady Blessed be.

Where the rippling waters flow

Cast a stone and truth ye'll know;

Four times the Major Sabbats mark

In the light and in the dark:

As the old year starts to wane

The new begins with dark Samhain.

When flowers blossom through the snow

Fair Brighid casts her seed to sow.

When winter yields to warmth's return

Let the Beltane fires burn.

As summer turns to Lammas night

First fruits and Grain Gods reach their height.

Four times the Minor Sabbats fall

Use the Sun to mark them all:

At Yuletide, with feast and mirth

We celebrate the God Child's birth.

Spring Equinox, Eostara's fest,

All newborn creatures will be blessed.

When the Sun has reached its height

Celebrate the greatest Light.

Offer thanks at second reaping;

Mabon poised for winter's sleeping.

Cast the circle thrice about,

To keep unwelcome spirits out.

To bind the spell well every time,

Let the spell be spake in rhyme.

Four Powers of the Witch fulfill -

Know, Will, Dare, and then Be Still

'Tis by the Sun that life be won,

And by the Moon that change be done.

If ye would clear the path to will,

Practice that the mind be still;

What good be tools without thy Light?

Shun magick made without true sight!

Follow this with mind & art,

Bright the cheeks and warm the heart,

And merry meet & merry part

And merry meet again!

The Witch Alone
(by Scott Cunningham)

Beyond the town, beneath the moon
Beside the standing stone
There lives a woman, fair of faith
We call the witch alone.

She sings to sun and moon and stars
And gathers herbs and weeds
With which she fashions ancient charms
And other magic deeds.

She worships not at altars built
By hands of mortal men
But in the misty glade
Beyond the farthest glen.

What need has she of flashing swords
Of crystals glowing bright
Of censors and of colored cords
That grace the wiccan rite?

Her tools are fashioned from the earth
And wind and fire and rain
Her rites are dances wild and free
That call the gods amain.

When spring and summer pass to fall
And twilight fills her eyes
She'll lie upon the browning grass
And smile as she dies

For though she leaves her mortal shell
Of flesh and blood and bone
She knows she does not die but lives
On, as the witch alone....

Thank you Rowan, I really loved The Witch Alone. Its a wonderful poem. :)

 I respect Pagans, as I come from a once a Pagan country. I guess I always liked the idea of Paganism in general, and scorn those who claim that Paganism is "Satanic". Paganism is very spiritual and peaceful. I can tell that from my dealings with my country's Pagan past.

I read once a very nice little nursery rhyme that I found in a memoir of a real witch, apparently. I can't remember how the book was called right now, but it was good, especially since it was a real memoir.

In the town live witches nine --

three in rags,

three in worsted,

three in velvet fine. 

I have no idea why, but sometimes I repeat this in my mind again and again, just like in the book when the girl falls asleep while repeating it to herself.

Aresthena, That sounds like:

Hark, hark, the dogs do bark,

the beggars are comming to town,

some in rags, some in jags,

and some in velvet gown.

an old English nursery rhyme.

Jaron, Having once called myself a pagan, I have sympathies with it, but I also have a gripe or two. For myself, I don't like the focus on sexuality and fertility or belief in magic. I don't go for charms or spells or old wives tales any more, and athame and chalice really turns me off. But I still consider pagans kinfolk, greatly enjoy their presence on wondercafe, and have a great respect and pain inside for my ancestors, whose religion was taken away from them. I am very interested to study historic pagan cultures and the significance of various rites and deities, but I no longer read neo pagan books or call upon pagan deities myself. Although...I love many children's pagan picture books to read with my son:

The Red Heels

Wild Child

Child of Faerie, Child of Earth

Daughter of Earth

The Winter Solstice by Ellen B Jackson

Cider Apples

These are our most precious children's books.

Oh, I also celebrate the solstices, Oestara, and halloween (pretty conventionally but to us it is a family holliday, not just for the kids). Never knew what to do on Imbolc...other than make hot cross buns! Gee I forgot that one! Used to mark Beltaine, but now don't know what to do then either, though...I do have a tape of spring songs I play May 1st.

We did the Maypole on Beltaine once.  There was a strange, but opportune occurrance.  Our group was trying to get the sequencing right to braid the ribbons around the pole, but we weren't having much luck.  Just about then, coming down the path for her evening walk was an older lady from Bavaria, I believe. 

She was happy to see Mayday being celebrated like it was in her girlhood and proceeded to show us how it's done.  It all took shape and it was gorgeous.

It was Magickal!!!!

I like that about salt. Very cool and I think very true as well.

Well Jaron my personal views are kind of an odd mix. When it comes to your hot button political issues I'm very liberal but in my views of GOD, spirituality, etc. I'm a pretty traditional Christian (raised Southern Baptist). I say that to let you know while I obviously don't share your religious beliefs I hold no animosity at all and I hope you participate in this great community. We have good people here and all are welcome. Welcome and don't be shy about making yourself heard.

Everyone finds a way to express their spiritual side, even if it is in atheism.  Pagans are no different in their feelings, only in their specific quirks :)

Everyone is free to express themselves in healthy ways and for the most part, paganism is healthy.

As-salaamu alaikum

-Omni

Hi Jaron:

Good to see you here.

I have been made to feel very welcome here over the last couple of years

Paganism it's about religion and religion is always humain construction.

True christianism it's something else. Isn't a religion but Truth give to human being by God to receive forgiveness of our sins.

Christians we don't have law (wicca have some law)... we live under the grace of God in a world of disgrace.

Actualy Patrick, religion need be nothing more than a belief in a higher power, i.e. if you believe in God, you have a religion.

Christianity, of "Christianism" as you put it,  is a religion, despite the fancy slogans you folks seem to come up with "It's not a religion, it's a relaaaaaaaaaitionsship" (sounds like something you'd hear from a used car salesman,  lol).

You can't change the meaning of words, just because you don't like who you might be associated with.

And as for your unsubstantiated claim of "Truth".... well anyone can claim truth. That's nothing new for religions at all. When you actually have something substantive to show that your religion is truth, and mine is not, you be sure to let us know.

I won't be holding my breath.

Quote: And as for your unsubstantiated claim of "Truth".... well anyone can claim truth. 

It's not my opinion. The Bible is the Truth and I can accept that because God give me is Holy Spirit when I accept Jesus in my life. You can experiment this with an easy prayer. Just ask God to forgive your sins and accept Jesus in your life.

But I respect your choice to not following Christ. I just want to tell my hope.

1 Peter 3:15

Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect.

I'm with Witch on this one. Chillax Patrick...

http://www.sanfords.net/Pagan_Humor_and_Thoughts/Other_People.html

I first read this story many years ago. I think some of you might find it interesting. It speaks rather pointedly to at least one Pagan's views of Christian clamis of absolute truth.

I figured posting the link would be much eassier than copying the whole story into a post.

Pretty standard reply. Not very substantive. I can reply in two equally efficacious ways. I can either;

1.  I can simply adopt the same stance as you, and make statements of "truth" that are just as substantive and have as much veracity.

"It's not my opinion Patrick. God's Word is the truth, and God has told me that your Bible is not His word, and that I do not need Jesus, or any other human prophet to come to Him. I know this is truth because I obtained the Holy Spirit of God when I accepted Him into my life."

Now I doubt that you would believe me, for exactly the same reasons I don't believe you. Yet I believe what I believe just as fervently as you believe what you believe. You believe you have proof by way of your experience with God, just as I do. It does show, however, that this tact puts us on exactly the same course. It puts us both squarley in the position of having made bold statements of opinion as if they were actual statements of fact, with neither of us having any basis or defensible position for making such a claim.

2. I could invite you to prove, by way of substantive, objective evidence that what you claim is "the" truth. When you fail to do that (which is likely, considering no one ever has been able to), I could point out the foolishness of calling someone elses beliefs wrong when you have no capability of proving yours right. I could also point out the counter-productive nature of witnessing by insulting your targets belief, especially given the lack of evidence for your own.

I don't "experiment" with God. Even so, I might point out that I did try that prayer you suggest, a few decades ago. It didn't help. I found out why a couple decades later, when I found God by leaving Christianity.

If you truly want to show respect, I suggest you not go around telling people they are wrong and you are right. Telling people what you believe, without resorting to meaningless claims of 'truth", is much more effective.

Telling people your hopes and beliefs is never wrong, unless you wrap it up in "I'm right, you're wrong" paper.

1 Peter 3:15

Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect.

No where in that verse does it tell you to claim to have "the" truth, but it does tell you to have respect. I suggest you follow the scriptures you use as examples.

 Witch, awesome to see you post--I haven't been around enough lately to see if you were still active. You give pagans a good name, as if it wasn't good enough anyway!

Pagans--love 'em. Favourite song: 'The Christians and the Pagans' by Dar Williams:

One thing a former pastor said a lot is "Christianity is not a religion, Christianity is a person, JESUS CHRIST". I always liked that. My ideal would be as much JESUS as possible and no religion at all. I can't claim to be there, just that I like the ideal.

Witch we can know what's happened in our lives. I know the Holy Spirit lives in me so Patrick, myself, and many others can speak from our own personal experience. We know what has happened inside us. I get your argument that it's not something external that is easily seen by others. Still if it's in your life, you know it.

And I can know what's happened in my life. I know the Holy Spirit lives in me so I can speak from my personal experience.

It is in my life. I do know it. Yet you still want to insist that my experience of God is wrong and yours is right, based on your experience?

Can you not see the inherant fallacy?

If you believe in Jesus as God, then you havwe a religion. It's what the word means.... fancy used car slogans notwithstanding.

Just wanted to say witch, your discussions are amazing and you are extremely verbose. Wonderful posts!

I didn't say that. I spoke for myself and noted that Patrick spoke for himself. I didn't speak for you pro or con, I don't know your life experience to say.

Jaron

In your initial post you asked How do we feel about Pagans?

I guess what you are really asking is how we feel about earth based religions since "Pagan" is a very broad term and can include almost anything outside standard Christianity-Judaism.

So, to answer the question - I'm fine with any searching for beliefs. I'm likely either at the very edge of Christianity myself, or completely out of it (possibly in more ways than one). Therefore I might be a Pagan too.

And what does that leave for the unfortunate people born prior to 5 BC, or for those who, for the first 1000 or so years after His time, had no clue what you are refering to?

How long until the UCC is no longer the salt of the earth? Not long. It's too permissive, always favouring popularity over tradition.

Fortunately for them, the salvation offered by Jesus extends both ways in time, covering those living before before and after His appearance on Earth. The cross was for people of present, future, and past (relative to the actual date of the crucifixion). And the people living elsewhere on the globe at that time were also included. Everyone living then, before then, and everyone living now. The most gracious offer of salvation expires when Jesus Christ returns, but by then it will have been too late.

Too late for what Squire?

And what of those of us who have God, but without your Jesus?

The pagans of Ancient Rome made a sport (literally) of killing Christians. Early Christians were rounded up and killed/eaten by lions in the Coliseum. So before the Christianization of Rome (by way of Emperor Constantine), the roles were reversed. And today, the greatest enemy of the Church (Islam notwithstandstanding) is probably the Church herself. More accurately, the greatest enemy of the Church is how vulnerable she is and always has been to the Evil One.

Historically, those who "had God without Jesus" were either killed by the bible-bangers of the ancient world or conformed to Christian orthodoxy under extreme duress. The Gospel of Christ was almost immediately profaned by those who kept it, turned into a weapon of unthinkable power. In its most wrongheaded, senseless, and brutal form, Christianity was a social / militatry / political tool. 

 Squire, and likewise Christians launched crusades against people who believed otherwise.

Look, we cannot argue about these things - it is obvious that in the past everybody made mistakes. Religions were too harsh, people were forced into abandoning their own beliefs at one point - that is what religion has always been. It's been violent. People have been murdered because of their beliefs. No religion can ever be justified, because of these events.

I agree with Witch on this - I also found God after I looked past Christianity. I am aware that God has helped me, but I believe that the Truth lies not in what is obvious. The Truth does not lie in religion. The Bible has been added on to for centuries. It has been translated to hundreds of languages. You cannot expect to find much of a truth in it now.

And by the way, the Church is already corrupted, Squire. Just like religion, it is flawed. Whether you believe that Satan is the cause of that, is your business.