I feel a conversion experience coming on…

....I saw the light........!!!!!

Well, I do have a relative who's up for sainthood.

Yes, the Pope is right: moneyism is evil!

What's next on the Pope's list of universal evils to be eradicated? Absolutism?

Capitalism allowed people to be "Christian" in a sort of a way… monetarism excludes the possibility. Monetarism is evil.

Does this mean the Pope will be selling all the idols contained in his universal church?  Unlocking the vaults of the vaticans treasury and distributing the money to the poor?

Admitting Simon bar Jonah is buried in Jerusalem  and he never was in Rome and that the papacy is a lie? Yaaay!

What a touching speech. I wonder what else he can do to help the poor?


http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/02/14/16957985-inside-the-vatica...

Interesting how people change the subject to avoid facing the issue. I am neither defending nor praising the pope. I am pointing out that  his statement should have some meaning to Christians.

However, it seems Christians would rather discuss whether there will be shuffleboard courts in heaven.

I agree Graeme. His statement is pretty bloody clear. And — I don't want to be thought judgemental here — but time and again on WC threads, anything a bit challenging soon attracts the yada-yada-yada-yada denials from the comfort zones, the pompous, self-righteous  little Vaticans of suburban middle class Canada. Without claiming pontifical infallibility as a justification, I'm going with Papa Francisco on this one.

I don't mean to knock the new pope, he's only been on the job for three month and hopefully he will be a people's pope. At least his first speech is talking about poverty, a real world issue.

Wow! I think this guy is playing everybody....but hey, to each their own.

How so? I think even if I don't agree with the pope on all of his viewpoints, I can agree with that with which I do agree. And I think he himself is being honest about his views even if I don't agree with them all. My heart tells me he's right about this one. And if millions of wealthy Catholics are listening (or anyone) and taking that advice-thinking about it- that's not a bad thing- regardless of what reforms happen or not at the Vatican.

The Vatican, IMO, has become a powerful business. They are currently dealing with high level cover ups and sexual abuse by priests, fraudulent dealings at the Vatican bank which includes money laundering, and blackmail allegations to name a few glaring inconsistencies with what God intended for his church. Remember, we will know who are Christian and who are not, by their fruit.

Do I really believe that the current Pope was chosen to clean up this mess? NO! I do believe he is the perfect solution and patsey to push before the public to preoccupy everyone, while they hide their "money trail" and others various misdealings. They say they are going to be more transparent with their banking, hopefully that means transparency for the last 50 years, I doubt it.

To me the new "Pope" has been chosen just like one would pick a new CEO for Coca Cola if they required a good spokesman for damage control. Some likable smuck that diverts attention away from the real issues. So here we have a man that stands up and says he's against the "cult of money". Isn't this calling the kettle black? Does no one see the irony? He unfortunately does not get to distance himself from the institution he was chosen to represent, IMO.

I am still waiting to hear him speak out about the scandals within his own church and what he plans to do about it.  The silence is deafening.

I really like this pope....

His words ring true on this topic.... well and truely said indeed....

We are going to see amazing things from this leader....

Now ..... I am looking at how to apply what he said in my own life as well....

Sincerely

Rita

In many ways, the Vatican operates like a medieval principality or kingdom. It is old, cumbersome and wealthy in a particular sort of way. It is worth a visit. Popes are elected but it would be silly to think that means "democratic" principles might apply.

It has played a tremendous role in the formation of "European heritage"… we are, to some extent, all somewhat "Catholic".

The Pope is more like an olden monarch, obliged to treat advisors well enough to cover his back, vulnerable to treachery, but with autocratic powers to steer the whole enterprise. A Pope can make decisions that affect the next century or two of Catholicism without too much concern for the coming year's annual report. A good Pope is reading the future on the basis of what he knows of people, of culture, of history… and interpreting it through prayer, study, ecperience within the church and knowledge of the church. A priest is always and ultimately an "outsider" in every community in which he serves. He is responsible to Rome, not the local authority.

The Catholic Church is cluttered with baggage, good and bad, sublime and horrific, and Popes generally are aware of the dangers and the opportunities that baggage provides. And, crucially I think, the Vatican is one of the World's very few non-militarised states.  The differences between the Papal role and the roles of a civil government leader or a business CEO are enormous.

I think Franciscus sees the unsustainability of the economic and political thinking that's in vogue, I think he recognises the flimsy state of civil society and sees more clearly than most the rise of pragmatic totalitarianism of the sort he experienced in Argentina… he's from the middle class Buenos Aires bario of Flores; his father left Italy to escape the Fascists.

If you think any Pope will have a sudden fire sale of artworks and other valuables to please Protestant critics, you'd be off your rocker. The "treasures" of the Vatican are held in trust for the people of God… they do not belong to the Vatican in the usual sense but belong to God as witness to the faith of ages and the bezuty of relationship with God.

It's worth remembering that the Catholic Church has produced some brilliant theology, spiritual resources, justice initiatives and progressive thought, even if it has proscribed and persecuted it at the time. It has somehow been a crucible for progressive thought and action, especially in South America, despite its aloof conservative heirarchies.

Talking about business, Waterfall, how do you rate the efforts of the present Canadian government to ensure economic justice, and address poverty and exclusion? It seems to have been working well for Senators and oil company executives.

A lot of anti-Catholicism arises from prejudice, ignorance, stupidity and frustration. And I say that as a Protestant and as a not very conventional Christian. In seeing irony in the Pope's statement, Waterfall, you are revealing prejudice, not reason.

If you prefer a system run by the Chicago School of Economics, you are well on the way in that direction. I hope people "get" where that wil lead us. There was a time when usurers and pirates were loathed, and hung, They are now having a field day.

I'm happy for the Pope to encourage his subjects — the Catholic Church — to frustrate the monetarist ideologues' ground plan. Protestants seem far happier, by and large, to sell out to the highest bidder… and that's a path to disaster for our children and our children's children. 

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Matthew 18 starts with some hair-raising stuff that's sort of pertinent at this point:

"At that time the disciples came to Jesus and said, 'Who then is greatest in the kingdom of heaven? And he called a child to himself and set him before them, and said, 'Truly I say to you, unless you are converted and become like children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven. Whoever then humbles himself as this child, he is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. And whoever receives one such child in my name receives Me; but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to stumble, it would be better for him to have a heavy millstone hung around his neck, and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.

“Woe to the world because of its stumbling blocks! For it is inevitable that stumbling blocks come; but woe to that man through whom the stumbling block comes! If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than to have two hands or two feet and be cast into the eternal fire. If your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out and throw it from you. It is better for you to enter life with one eye, than to have two eyes and be cast into the fiery hell."

The late Archbishop Dom Helder Camera (of Recife Brazil): "When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist."

While it's true this pope seems less pro-rape than the previous pope, let's wait a while to see what he accomplishes in terms of reforms before the beatification.

As for an explanation of the Vatican, I'll repost something I posted earlier:

Chansen: What will YOU do for the World in the next 10 years or so? Can you name a pope who has advocated rape? If not, what is your problem? Canadian mining companes seem more effectively "pro-rape" with far less resources at their disposal. Maybe we should each and all of us be more concerned about our contributions than about charging a Pope with ineffectiveness before his tenure is barely under way. Snide dumbass remarks don't even rate as "clever", let alone as a contribution to the betterment of the World.

As for re-posting… you're getting like Jae.

First of all Mike, I have no idea why you think I don't support WHAT he is saying. He is condemning the "cult of money". I agree BUT I do not expect him to be the example other than perhaps on a personal lifestyle basis. He is the head of a "system", much like any head of state or president is. Systems are NOT run by one person, even if they are the Pope.

I agree that the Roman Catholic church has many wonderful attributes but do you not see that the centuries of backwards thinking that you claim takes another century of "forward thinking" to change, actually oppresses the very people he wants to "save" from this cult of money?

Your comment about the treasures (idols) of the vatican being held in trust for the people of God and belong to God as witness to the faith of ages and the beauty of relationship with God. Really?  I don't hear anything even close to what Jesus said on that issue.

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Abraham smashes the idols

The world-famous story about Abraham's breaking the idols shows the wit and wisdom with which he exposed man's folly and self-deception when he worships idols and other products of his own activity.
    

Abraham's father, Terach was an idol-manufacturer. Once he had to travel, so he left Abraham to manage the shop. People would come in and ask to buy idols. Abraham would say, "How old are you?" The person would say, "Fifty," or "Sixty". Abraham would say, "Isn't it pathetic that a man of sixty wants to bow down to a one-day-old idol?" The man would feel ashamed and leave.

One time a woman came with a basket of bread. She said to Abraham, "Take this and offer it to the gods".

Abraham got up, took a hammer in his hand, broke all the idols to pieces, and then put the hammer in the hand of the biggest idol among them.

When his father came back and saw the broken idols, he was appalled. "Who did this?" he cried. "How can I hide anything from you?" replied Abraham calmly. "A woman came with a basket of bread and told me to offer it to them. I brought it in front of them, and each one said, "I'm going to eat first." Then the biggest one got up, took the hammer and broke all the others to pieces."

"What are you trying to pull on me?" asked Terach, "Do they have minds?"

Said Abraham: "Listen to what your own mouth is saying? They have no power at all! Why worship idols?"

(Midrash Bereishit 38:13)

Anyway, I will wait and see, and pray I'm wrong. This whole train of thought just seems backwards to me. Clean up your own house first, then clean up the world.

It is refreshing to listen to the words of this Pope.  I agree with him on the evils of being controlled by money and possesions.  Most forms of religion teach that we shouldn't be overly concerned with those things,  I admire his example of humilty and simple living - declining the many excess trappings of his role.  First Pope to live in a fairly basic apartment instead of a palatial one - first to dress a bit more plainly - the first to make overtures to leaders of other faith groups.  The Vatican (like Rome itself) wasn't built in a day and likely one man can't totally change it in what he has left of life.   I can't imagine that his role includes off loading the Vatican jewels and art works for cash is something that could or even should happen. 

Following the tenets of the RC faith isn't for me but I sense that beneath all the posturing and mincing gaits of its Cardinals, Archbishops etc there is a strong ground of wonderful charitable people.

Mike, the video is quite informative and concise, unlike yourself.

And are you suggesting that because there are companies that systematically rape the land, we shouldn't be concerned about religious organizations that systematically rape the children?

Joseph Ratzinger, was the Prefect (head) of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith for 24 years before he became pope, which has a stated purpose to "spread sound Catholic doctrine and defend those points of Christian tradition which seem in danger because of new and unacceptable doctrines".

It was on his watch that so many children were abused by priests who were shuttled between parishes. He was the muscle in Vatican City. Allegations of abuse would have gone to him, and he did next to nothing about it.

It's his signature on a document instructing the delay of defrocking a pedophole priest in California.

It's his signature on an order instructing church leaders to keep allegations of sexual abuse internal to the church until 10 years after the alleged victims reached adulthood.

Joseph Ratzinger is an evil bastard who deserves a hell that I'm afraid doesn't exist. If he were the CEO of an international chain of daycares, he'd be prosecuted and in jail for life, or executed. Because he was a leader of the most visible church in the world, he gets an apartment in the Vatican and a comfortable retirement.

There is, apparently, no justice available. The best we have is to diminish the legacy of the man who could have prevented so much suffering and so many ruined childhoods. So yeah, I may make a sarcastic comment at the expense of the legacy of this man. It's about all I can do. I think that's far more moral than defending him.

bless da current Pope!

When you hear the neologism "Illumaniti" or "Secret Masters", these are the Devils that are controlling the world, in plain sight, for everyone to see.  These are the totalitarian plutocrats we are fighting against.  The global greyface that seeks to keep us all under their bootheel.

ICAP & Libor are their names...know them well...

Fortunately, or unfortunately, we humans are apes with the powers of gods. Not knowing that we are as gods, we tend to abuse our godly powers to further our animal instincts.

Alas, religion has done little to help us attain the awareness of our godliness. On the contrary, by projecting godliness onto a separate supernatural deity, and withholding it from us, religion, Roman Catholicism in particular, has perpetuated the evil of the human animal abusing its godliness.

We are as gods and must get good at it!

-Stewart Brand

Chansen: I wasn't talking about Canadian mining companies raping the land, I was referring  to the lawsuit brought against  Hud Bay Minerals by 11 Guatemalan women who allege that they were raped by comapny employess involved in clearing them off the land to make way for their mining operations.

http://www.rightsaction.org/articles/Rape_victims_sue_HudBay_032811.html

You can make negative analyses of any and every human institution or you can find starting points for hope.

And, when you really look at history, you find that religion is lessoften the cause of harm than greed, powerlust and fear: the very things the great religions teach against. The followers of religions, just like the followers of eating healthy breakfasts, have inevitably been caught up in wars and and attrocities. Religions have often been used as rallying cries by despots (as have "king and country", "liberty", "mainfest destiny", "The Empire", "civilisation as we know it"… even "peace". Behind it all, you usually find, not a person of religion, but a despot.

And, of course, in every faith, as in every undertaking, you'll find ratbags, idiots and craven evil… some are trying to become better people through it, some are looking for fresh oportunities to be a-holes. That's the way people are. Some are actually helped by religions.

To blame faith for every wrong is a distorted reading of history and a serious deificit of self-awareness, as well as want of awareness of human nature.

You're playing your game and I'm sure you have personal needs for doing so… but you don't really NEED the fixation: the World's bigger and better than you seem to think.

I think Pope Francis' statement is a play on the right side of human intentionality. Why duck it?

I would love to see a thread discussing the subject of the speach which I take to be about how we should respond to the present economic situation and about our attitudes towards money and our economic values in general - rather than an attack on the RC church, or on religion in general.

Rather than talking about the Pope or the RC church, can we look at what was said, whether it has merit, and what could be done about it?

"(We need) Global financial reform that respects human dignity, helps the poor, promotes the common good and allows state regulated markets.

Money has to serve, not to rule.

A major reason behind the increase in social and economic woes worldwide is in our relationship with money and our acceptance of its power over ourselves and our society.

We have created new idols where the golden calk of oldd has found a new and heartless image in the cult of money and the dictatorship of an economy which is faceless and lacking any truly humane goal."

I agree.  We have made money and the economic system become our God.  The economy has more power over us than our elected government.  It controls our lives.  We worship at the shopping plazas and box stores and offer them our tribute.  We measure our worth by the possessions we are able to obtain. We put ourselves in debt that controls our lives to show to ourselves and the world that we are 'good enough' to own big houses, take extravagant vacations, own 'things'.  We are consumers.  Even little children are taught to be consumers.  And we don't realize how much of this is controlled by banks, big business, and financial institutions that reach over the borders of countries and exert control over our lives.   

If this what we want?  How can we live our lives fully and humanely in this world?  What is our responsibility towards ourselves and others?  How can we be an influence for good when so much seems to be beyond us?

Gosh - this is the makings of a sermon.

SEELER;

In such a string we would be called commune ists ... where as the powers would ruther us to have been silent while they are counting their coine ...

Is thet a repetive song ... like EQOZ ...? Thus the post, piller, or capital must fall ... a'postolic? The descent of gods ... follows ascention in reality ... of what goes up ...

What comes around goes around ... twitters ... twits as only a wee part of the hole story ...?

In the last cycle ... have wee mortals learned anything? Appears to be against religion ... knowledge, wisdom and all that is out-of-here ... crazy in fine ante iaL terms where monis  first? A devious genre ...

I couldn't say this simple ... for then I would be accused of thinking ... that's A'B'D thing ... separate in ancient tongues ... like divine'd ... the splitting of Eire ... shock'n!

Seeler, this thread was derailed almost immediately when it put money-love up front and centre as an evil afflicting the World, despite its being a very conservative wholly Biblical statement. People run a mile from it because it discomfits (NOT "discomforts") them. Faith is all about consoltation and justification to many people, not about truth or justice.

I agree heartily, totally and entusiastically — and faith-fully — with the pope on this, and see it being vital to World security that the towers of greed and aquisition be toppled: greed has become a widespread lifestyle and it is THE ever-present elephant in the over-sized livingroom, and walking in the Mall wearing a cheap Bangadeshi teeshirt. Overpopulation? A problem in the developing world? When one North American kid has an environmental footprint equivalent to that of 80 South Asian childrem? And so it goes: greed begets denial begets more greed and, ineterestingly, makes no-one especially happy. We simply dopn't NEED what we WANT… and we'll destroy each other and ourselves to get it.

"we'll destroy each other and ourselves to get it."

Thus the biblical wisdom is full filled ... and man as mortal shall die!

Very close to definition of avarice ... the excess desire to control everything ... and some back away from this in recess or regressive action that takes them deep into time to ask: what de phoqah did we do wrong here? As a thought, such things escape us as god(s) in Robert Schiller's word again ... even gods have trouble with thought ... a devilish thing to draw from the shadows under tamiyr's tree ... a burning bush of another kind? Divides the men from da bois ... slow and easy now ...

If you don't wish to know then mosé along ... like Moses wondering in the hills with Mire I am? Bet yah didn't see that well ... the pro-fundus of Ephraim's depths! A sort of genre not gendre ...

But mortals don't think this way, against religious fixation as stoic and immobile ... anon emote in function! The Shadow moves ... is that ghoul or just that dark Lass that has consumed your thoughts? Men tend to be like that when their mind is chewing away underneath it all ... adam-ism, or just aDa myst of the arid sol' ... creepy conspiracy of ignorance? Just blows my mind ... the ultimate anachronism so people won't recognize a thought as fallen over ...

Thank you MIke. 

I only have a first year introductory course in economics.  I don't know the solutions to our global economic situation.  But I think that the first thing we have to do is to admit our greed.  

Most of us were honestly upset by the death toil of the garment workers in Bangaldash when the factory collapsed.  We were quick to look for somewhere to put the blame - but not on us who purchase the T-shirts and slacks and other goods coming out of those factories and into our stores.  And I doubt if our feelings of 'how terrible' kept us out of the stores for any length of time, or encouraged us to spend one dime of the money we save by buying cheap clothes on something that will make the workers lives safer or healthier or happier.

I wonder how much effect it might have if each of us committed ourselves to live simplier, limit our purchases, throw away less, make a smaller footprint. 

Honesty requires a good look in the mirror ... to find one's elf!

Where do thougfhts go when the avaraice passes on? It is an underlying theme for survival of the Shadow ... and her castings ... in Nordic Legend that's skett!

Rein deire scat! Thus we are ... up to our necks ... init!

Noz hit ...

That worship of money is the critical issue that most threatens us all. It is regrettable that so many people quarrel of trivialities of the faith - and prefer to ignore the big issues.

I recognize the difficulties of fitting this sort of thing into the sermons, or any part of the service. We really need a separate time for congregants to get accustomed to discussing such issues that are so worldly but have such profound implications for the faith.