Gods works in mysterious ways Pinga. From our point of view we don't know why things happen to people, we can only trust that the wheels of karma turn in their own good time. We're missing too much of the story to question why "shit happens".


Re miracles and spontaneous healing: how do you know this isn't happening in the world, cause you don't read about it in the news?


Re God turning back the clock: Merland the magician is said to be aging backwards in time, but time in general is also said to be an illusion according to our awareness. Maybe with God awareness we will be able to see the past, present and future as one eternal "now".

I understand that is your faith, Neo.  It isn't mine.

"I own that chaos occurs in this world

that shit happens to people and it shouldn't"

Couldn't agree more.  Sometimes people tempt fate if they live in areas noted for floods, hurricanes or volcanic eruptions, but if this is the only thing they know because of culture and other limitations, what choice do they have.  Seems we can't all live in "safe" places.

People killed daily in war zones around the world caused by human greed and indifferene, lust for power, and no respect for the dignity of human life.

Sometimes people tempt fate in extreme sports and get lucky...some not.  Two tragic accidents this year in Canadian sports.

When tragedy strikes the innocent...the mystery of the "why".  Why did a couple choose to murder Tori Stafford?  Many reasons, but incomprehensible that people can be so evil.

Pedestrians killed daily because of carelessness?

A beautiful little boy whose life has been changed dramatically by an unknown invader.

Why do bad things happen to good people?  The universal question.

Maybe miracles do happen, but not in they way we expect or not with the outcomes we hope for.

Maybe this God we embrace does answer prayers....but we don't recognize the answer, again because it isn't of our choosing.

That's the mystery of faith, and sometimes it is difficult to believe in a loving, benevolent God when the world is crashing around us.

Oh, how I wish....

for clocks that can be turned back

(yet I have watched too many movies with the butterfly effect to be willing to turn them myself)

I however do believe in spontaneous healing, miracles, yet they happen where they do and when they do... it is far more random than my heart might like.
Some miracles are medical and some are spiritual and healing is not always in the shape of a cure.
I don't believe in a God who hands them out and plays favourites- anymore than I believe in a God who curses some and blesses others.

I do believe prayer has the power to make God intervene.
How God intervenes and in what form is another story.

For me, a space can open in the praying person, permitting God to act.
The change in that person thus changes what God can do in the world.
Prayers awakens the God we keep safely resting on a bed of clouds. It breaks the chains we keep God bound in....
I believe as Walter Wink said "far from being an escape from action, prayer is a means of focusing action and of creating action."

Yet, like you, today.... how I wish.

As I am sitting in my office on my regular day off prepping a funeral for a 15 year old who took her own life....

Amen Pinga Amen

Yes, and when it happens it is downright crappy!

If it's happening to us . . . we hurt.

If it's happening to someone else . . . we hurt for them.

And generally we get mad!

I don't believe that God makes the chaos and crap disappear magically, but I do believe that God is with (and others) as I go through it.  And what God does offer me is help, strength, comfort, wisdom, compassion, caring, mercy, and grace.  I  believe God works through the hands and feet (and minds, and hearts, and words) of others who come forward to help us.

I believe God is always there - for me and with me - journeying with me through the chaos and crap.  And I believe God is always there with others.

I guess that's how I would word it too, SG - that God does work - but just how and in what form is another story - or a mystery.  I do believe God works through the generosity, kindness, and hands of others.

Oh, GordW, how awful . . . I'm praying for you right now as you do so . . . may you be given guidance, strength, help, and wisdom.  May words you are meant to sure form in your mouth and through your pen (or computer :).  May God grant you an abundance of mercy, compassion, and grace.  Peace be with you.

I share Pinga's viewpoint.  

Neo.  I am not saying this to be offensive or difficult, but I would like to point out that for those who have lived with profound tragedy and, perhaps are walking with tragedy, those words can actually be very hurtful.  I know they are well intentioned and you wish only the best. 

Lately I was part of another conversation with a parent of a child with similar disabilities and medical issues to my son (our sons are both 13 and were born a day apart).  Her son has improved dramatically quite recently and exceeded the physician's expectations.  There was much talk about God answering prayer, miracles for the deserving and so on.  

In the last year my son has deteriorated significantly (part of why I haven't been here).  He has been hospitalized repeatedly and a massive team has been mobilized to try to address his medical issues.  Chronic pain control (with narcotics) and palliative care are two specialities that are involved.  While I was very happy for my friend and mostly for her son, I also know that during the last year I have prayed to God and asked Her to end my son's suffering, even if it means his death. My concurrent suffering had reached a crescendo and I was ready to collapse.  

As I listened to the conversation swirling around my friend about God working miracles, answering prayer, healing the sick and so on I kept thinking that I wouldn't mind a miracle, or at least my son's chronic pain to abate.  I have prayed.  I have done everything I can as a parent and it isn't enough.  There is NOTHING worse than watching your child, who does not have the cognitive ability to understand suffering and pain, to suffer in pain.  

I have reached a point in my faith and parenting journey where those comments don't hurt me the way the once did.  But, there was a time when those messages, no matter how well intentioned, would have made me feel that my faith and my son weren't worthy of healing or of God's attention.

I respect what you believe.  I am just asking you to be aware that there are contexts that those words hurt even when you don't mean them to.

There have been many times I wish that the clock could have be turned, could have stood still for just a few seconds, that accidents or injuries could have been prevented, in my life and the lives of others.  When words could have been taken back, when lives could have been spared.  But what would the repercussions or consequence be?  I don't know?

Some say "everything happens for a reason", "what was meant to be was meant to be", etc. etc.  I struggle with that and want to scream out "why?????????"

God should not be confused with the good fairy.

Amen Graeme.

Daisy Jane,

I am sorry to hear about your son's deterioration over the last year ... I was wondering what you were up to.

Hi Pinga

I am with you in sharing those same wishes.  One of the unfortunate things about embracing a liberal or progressive approach to Christianity is that we can lose some of the more comforting aspects of a simpler faith.  When your honesty and integrity leads you to discard the idea of a supernatural, interventionist god who answers prayers, it often leaves a feeling of great loss.

On the plus side however, it can lead to a far deeper appreciation of need to find joy and beauty in this earthly life, rather than looking to some pie in the sky reward in an uncertain afterlife.

I have not used prayers of intercession or petition to an interventionist deity for some time now.   However, the greatest frustration for me has been in not knowing to whom to direct my feelings of thankfulness.    My life has been a beautiful journey, and I have been surrounded by loving and caring people. When I am so full of joy that I am bursting, I want to thank the heavens and the gods for my good fortune in a way that is incompatible with my present belief system. 

I think I have redefined my own personal understanding of prayer not as the process of sending a message or request to an external deity, but rather as personal engagement with the world to try to bring goodness, justice, and love to a hurting world that is sadly in need of caring.  In this way I hope I can share with others some of the gifts that have been given to me.

Hi Iwonder,

This seems like a very logical progression of thought to me. If God is not an interventionist, then God cannot be a bestower of blessings either.

daisyjane- it is good to hear an update, not so good to hear what it contains. Our thoughts are with you.

iwonder, thank you. You put, in words, where many are.

This is what I wish most of all.

But I don't believe it either.

I don't believe it in "hard" form (God will cure the sick) or in "soft" form (God will grant wisdom and patience to the caregivers in the medical profession).

However, this doesn't seem to stop me from saying prayers that sound like I believe these things.  Once in a while.

Great discussion topic Pinga. And very timely too.

The sincerity of your "wish" is a function of your passion to discover credible testimonies to such healing "miracles" and "interventions in aweful situations."     Do you want to hear such first-hand testimonies?  If not, your wish merely expresses frustration induced by bias. 

`o/I don't believe in superstars,
Organic food and foreign cars.
I don't believe the price of gold;
The certainty of growing old.
That right is right and left is wrong,
That north and south can't get along.
That east is east and west is west.
And being first is always best.

But I believe in love.
I believe in babies.
I believe in Mom and Dad.
And I believe in you.

Well, I don't believe that heaven waits,
For only those who congregate.
I like to think of God as love:
He's down below, He's up above.
He's watching people everywhere.
He knows who does and doesn't care.
And I'm an ordinary man,
Sometimes I wonder who I am.

But I believe in love.
I believe in music.
I believe in magic.
And I believe in you.

I know with all my certainty,
What's going on with you and me,
Is a good thing.
It's true, I believe in you.

I don't believe virginity,
Is as common as it used to be.
In working days and sleeping nights,
That black is black and white is white.
That Jesus and Allah,
Are still alive in Hollywood.
That gasoline's in short supply,
The rising cost of getting by.

But I believe in love.
I believe in old folks.
I believe in children.
I believe in you.

I believe in love.
I believe in babies.
I believe in Mom and Dad.
And I believe in you.\o`
 

--don williams

paradox3,

Thank you, for this.

"I don't believe it in "hard" form (God will cure the sick) or in "soft" form (God will grant wisdom and patience to the caregivers in the medical profession). "

I do not believe in it in hard form. I try to be conscious and careful that my words do not harm (as daisyjane spoke of about some gettting cures and others not...)

I do not believe in it in soft form, either. However, I have been less conscious and careful. My awareness has been raised by this post and daisyjane's witness that I need to be careful I do not harm in soft form, either. People can be left asking why  God grants some people in the field wisdom and other's get incompetence, some God gives patience and others are abusive or negligent.

One can give someone a bloody nose with something hard like a fist or something soft like a pillow. Something meant to comfort, not hurt, can also bring harm.

Thank you, paradox3 and daisyjane for your witness.

When I pray it is for acceptance, for strength, courage, wisdom.  It is to know that I am not alone, that I am surrounded by love; that someone is aware of my fear, worry, discomfort, apprehension and that someone cares.  That 'someone' to me is the sum total of the people I know (including this virtual community), but it is more than that - it is the Holy that holds everything else together. 

So I pray for myself as I learn to live with the new reality that I have an incurable (at the present time), progressive condition - something that will get worse over the years until I am incapacitated (and right now I hope that something else takes me before that happens).  

I pray for my daughter that she might have the strength to face the challanges in her life and continue to find joy.

And I pray for Chansen and his family as they face the future with their baby boy. 

I don't pray for God to intervene in the form of reaching down from on high and working magic, but I do pray that God gives them and the caregivers the knowledge, skill, and compassion to meet each day as it comes.

I cannot help but pray.

Pinga,
 

If I offended you by sounding callous then I'm totally sorry, I wasn't aware of the context behind your questions. I should learn to listen before spouting off.

******************
 

DaisyJane,

I apologize to you also, it does sound rather cold, especially if you're going through such personal tragedy like you are. I too have young teenagers, 16 and 14, I am thankful for their health everyday.

Why things happen to us is one of the biggest mysteries of life. Does the luck of the draw or random mutation have a purpose, a goal? I can't tell anyone that for sure. I can only believe that life itself has purpose, even if strikes us down in pain.

Again, I'm sorry for your pain and your son's pain DaisyJane.
 

God bless.
 

I do pray for miracles. I don't mean to offend, but instead of responding to Chansens devasting news on his thread yesterday, I literally went down on my knees and asked God to intervene. I also prayed that they would receive strength, hope, courage, understanding and whatever they needed to get through this. I prayed with tears in my eyes and found myself asking for God to do something. I've been very moved (like all of us here) by the ordeal that Chansen and his family have gone through.

I have witnessed miracles. And I have witnessed no miracle. I don't understand why some are healed when others are not, I just truly believe that it can occur.

GordW, DaisyJane, SG, Beloved, Seeler....so much that we would wish away....or even blame.

I am thankful for the wisdom offered...

Thanks for starting this topic Pinga. I've had those feelings as well. I've also felt my faith grow in different ways that I appreciate. Then I wonder what faith is actually. I do not believe in a good fairy type of god that grants our every wish and who wants our team to win. On the other hand, my work has lead me to believe that miracles do indeed happen. I'm not sure why or how.

I often wish the world was a simple as the holders of "the truth" would have us believe. I wish it were black and white, the way those who believe in good and evil would have us believe.

My work and my life have taught me that this world is full of many shades of grey along with a multitude of colours. No, I do not want black and white. Just the simplicity some days.

ah, the human comedy

Pinga, didn't you know that we humans were evolved by plants to help them thrive?  True story :3

The same with bacteria and plants.

Excuse me, I have to tend to my mom's begonias -- they need some cuddles

I believe in a God who can cause miracles to occur in spontaneous healing.

I believe God cannot reverse the clock because doing so would violate his essential character.

I believe that God sometimes answers prayer and intervenes in awful situations

I believe that God can use chaos to bring about his ordered will.

I believe that bad things happen to people and that when they do what we should do is to focus on the good that God is doing through them and because of them.

What I wish for are calorie-free frosty chocolate milkshakes.

Rich blessings.

---

MC jae

Goodness Jae, God made the sun stand still in the sky.  Surely reversing time wouldn't be much harder.

Is that what they used to call a first kiss in your day, seeler? :3

So much of our faith - or lack of faith - depends on how we see God.

There are those that seem to, as Graeme suggests, see God as the tooth fairy....

There are those that see God as the perfect Daddy, who will take care of all of our problems.

There are those that see God as The Supreme Being -worthy of capital letters.

All the above have the suggestion that there is someone in charge -someone who can intervene and control outcomes.

There are those who believe in a Creator God -that set the whole thing in motion -and then pissed off and left us to it.

There are those that see God as an abstract concept - based on a feeling of mystery and awe for the world around us.

I didn't believe in God. My intellect and reason told me otherwise.

(Well, just maybe God as an abstract concept was a possibility. There is much in nature and beauty and loving hearts to fill me with awe.)

Then came a Saul now Paul experience.......

It was profound -and something my rational mind couldn't  - and still can't - process.

It has been life changing -and changed forever my own understanding of God. 

To me now, there isn't a God "out there" and us "here".

Rather, the most important thing about God is it's a relationship. God needs us, and we need Him.

God's power is in love, not in control.

When we suffer, God suffers with us. It's His love that is available to us - not His  power to control.

As Pinga says, shit happens.

It doesn't just happen to me and you - it happens to all of us.

We don't want suffering, illness, or death, but there comes a time when we must face it. ("coming ready or not"!)

But, as in all the best relationships, God works for our common good.

I have found that, if I keep my relationship to God open, He will provide me with an opportunity to find a measure of peace in my suffering and once more discover the beauty and awe in living.

It's not just up to God -it's up to me also. I can turn my back on the opportunity for serenity offered if I so choose.

But, as God is love, there will always be further opportunities.

Just as God "talks" to me in the language of love, he does us all. More often than not, I have been rescued through the hands and hearts of God's love made manifest in others..........

I wish for a world of loving hands, hearts and minds working for the common good.

Jesus called it "The Kingdom of God".

Amen

I think one of the reasons we tend to wonder why bad thngs happen is because we view ourselves as being seperate and higher than the rest of the universe.

in my faith, I am no more important that the flu virus that may infect me. For God to prevent me from getting the flu would mean She would be choosing one of Her children, me, over another, the virus, that was only doing exactly what it was supposed to do.

You have nothing.  You have unsubstantiated anecdotes, that you refuse to categorize as such because you need to be right so bad, you're completely blind.  If you had something in your "miracle" bag, then scientists and researchers would be all over it.  Christians who happen to be scientists and researchers would lead the way.  Think of the prestige of being able to prove Christianity - never mind the money.

Basically, you and a handful of miracle-promoting Christians are assuming that you are being ignored by other Christians and the medical community and the rest of society at large, because we're all willfully ignorant.  That assumption is false.  You're ignored because you have nothing.  You're ridiculed because you sell false hope to the vulnerable, for the selfish reason that you need others to agree with you.  There are few words to describe how terrible you are.

The simple answer is, bad things happen.  Not only to bad people, and not only to good people.  Bad things happen.  And sometimes, you beat the odds.  But usually, you don't.

So you hope.  If you're religious, then you pray, which is just hope wearing a fancy hat.

Chansen, may you always have the fire in your belly that allows you to reach out and respond as you do..

You will encounter these people with sanctimoneous expressions or platitudes in the days ahead.  I'm unsure if I hope for their sake you go gentle, or just drop the bomb on ther head.  

...You take that literally?

Rich blessings.

---

MC jae

[Chansen:]  You have nothing.  You have unsubstantiated anecdotes, that you refuse to categorize as such because you need to be right so bad, you're completely blind.  

(1)  My friend DJ had a badly torn knee ligsments.  MRIs were done and surgery was scheduled after his return from a scheduled tour of Greece and Turkey.  At the alleged Virgin Mary's house at Ephesus, a woman saw him limping and grimacing.  She suggested that he pour water on his knee from the healing spring near the Virgin's house.  DJ bottled the water just to be polite, but had no intention of pouring it on his knee.  But when he cpmplained of pain back at the hotel, his wife, Mary Ann, urged him to apply the water.  She didn't believe in it either, but observed, "How can it hurt?"  So he poured the water on his knee.   He felt a little better but attributed this to the placebo effect.  Upon his return to the USA, he was operated on by the top orthopedic surgeon in Spokane.  When DJ came out of the anaesthetic, there stood his surgeon at the foot of his bed, frowning.  He apologized, "I'm so sorry.  We did MRIs and other tests on you, but when we cut you open your knee had no tears.  Even the arthritis is gone!  I can't  explain it."  I don't believe there was any magical power in the water itself.  But the atmosphere of faith in that shine and its spring seems to be a decisive factor. 

(2) RS from my church was converted when his inoperable spinal damage was instantly healed in response to his prayers. (3)  RS's friend, an alcoholic,  passed out drunk one night on railway tracks.  As a result, he lost both of his legs and was confined to a wheelchair.  But he still was overwhelmed by alcoholic cravings.  Depressed, he decided to end his life by racing his wheelchair off a dock into deep lake water.  But when he hit the water, an unseen force catapulted him back onto the dock.  A passer by later found him drenched up on the dock and saw his wheelchair in the lake.  RS's friend was so moved by this miracle that he became a devout Christian and dedicated his life to running AA programs.  These examples could be multipied and supplmented by several personal experiences. 

Of course, we can cop out and insist, based on our impoverished spiritual experiences, that such people are lying or self-deluded.  We can aribitrarily set up our rules of evidence so that personal testimonials are trivialized whenever they clash with our preconceptions.  But I prefer the delirious joy that is generated by such experiences!  I feel no need to personally put God under a microscope.    Yes, we must face the mystery of why some and not others experience such healings and miracles.  So we have a choice: we can be paralyzed by fear of disappointment, do nothing significant to develop our faith,  and tell ourselves that we wish our loved ones could enjoy such experiences; or we can breathe the fresh air of honest and open inquiry and prize unspeakably wonderful experiences above rational explanations.  We can recognize that God may have an exit strategy for each of us and that many unknown factors might influence who does and does not experience dramatic answers to prayer.  Then we can study and strive to deepen our life of prayer in the hope that our loved ones might experience such profound moments of grace and divine intervention. 

I wish did live with AIDS since my twenties.

I wish my partner had not died.

I wished that all of my close friends in life had not died and that I replaced their friendship with other friends who than died.

I wish I had never seen the pain of those Children who lost parents and who were fighting for their life for whom I played Sanata every year

I wish I did not know about what happened and is happening to First Natiions, and other communties around the worldI wish that I did not face barriers that limited me and that makes so many things difficult and frustrating.

I wish I had a boyfriend

I am grateful to be a live today and to be able to grow and learn

I am grateful for having my partner come into my life and change me

I am grateful that I was able to care for and help my partner.

I am  grateful  for my friends and for the many things they taught me

I  am grateful my friends included me in their lifes

I am grateful for the smiles and the giggles and look of wonderment I saw in children when I meet children living with HIV in my Sanata Suit at annual Christmas parties. 

I am greatful to have been able to help with others,  show these children that they were loved and important.

I am grateful no longer live in ignorance about the world, and what happens, and the ability this gives me to resist and speak up for change.

I am grateful for having high functioning Autism and having  found out why I was different, so that I could  accept what I could not change, and that I could work on what I could change to make life a lot better.

I am grateful  that I know am worthy, loved by just being who I am and that I belong in this world

I am grateful that I am not alone,

Not accepting unsubstantiated miraculous claims is not "copping out."  It's simply not buying what you're selling.  And you are selling.  If you want to believe in miracles, that's fine.  But when you sell belief in miracles to the desperate, and your payment is in the form of new believers who help you justify your own belief, that's fraud.  And you're a fraud.

Got any cases where God has restored an amputated limb?

No?

Didn't think so.....

Berserk,

It is always wonderful to hear stories where good things happen and, even though my story didn't have such a happy ending, I am always happy to hear the happy endings.

However, insisting that those happy endings are proof of a God who intervenes in certain circumstances and not in others is a deeply hurtful statement for people who are walking with profound loss, tragedy, and pain. Those of us who walk with pain are good people, often have prayed, and so on.  For whatever reason our situation has remained unchanged and the insinuation is often that it could change but God has decided it shouldn't.

For those who say that our difficult journey has brought about much good and that is where God is found, I would say that the suffering of a child is too high a price to pay for such growth and good.  If God creates good through the suffering of a vulnerable child then that is not a God I am able to have a relationship with in any way.

My friend (referred to earlier) was told by the physicians that her son's recovery bordered on the miraculous.  I am incredibly happy for her.  I always think it is good to rejoice when unexpected recoveries (note: I am not using the word "miracle") happen.  However, I would advocate for doing it in a way that does not hurt those who continue to walk a difficult journey and where not only have unexpected recoveries NOT happened but things may actually be getting worse.

For me, my faith is very simple.  God is with me. God is with my son. God is encountered amid community.  Shit happens and that is not God.  The shit  is simply life and the stuff we encounter as part of the human journey.  God is with me on the journey. 

Chansen wrote:

Not accepting unsubstantiated miraculous claims is not "copping out."  It's simply not buying what you're selling.  And you are selling.  If you want to believe in miracles, that's fine.  But when you sell belief in miracles to the desperate, and your payment is in the form of new believers who help you justify your own belief, that's fraud.  And you're a fraud.

I would add that "selling" to people who are desperate and hurting borders on abusive and is usually  hurtful and exacerbates their own pain and suffering, particularly when miracles are not forthcoming (as miracles are very rare).  Believe in miracles if you do.  Pray quietly for people who suffer.  But, when people are hurting, the best and most Jesus-inspired response in my personal opinion is to shut up and bring some hot coffee (or whatever material comfort the individual might appreciate).  For the record, I like mine with milk, no sugar.

Rich blessings.

---

MC jae

The cafeteria at which I work has a Timmys booth. I can set you up.

Rich blessings.

---

MC jae

I remind you that I posted sample healings and miracles with which I'm personally acquainted before I learned about Chansen's son.  I don't want to continue posting about those answers to prayer, except to make 4 points: (1) I never used the word "proof."  Proof in such matters is in my view even undesirable. (2) Eyewitness testimony can be mistaken, but is a vital part of the legal system and the way we draw conclusions in all aspects of life.  (3) In DJ's and RS's cases, there are the before and after MRIs and other medical tests confirming the bodily damage.  So iti s inaccurate to claim that these healings are "unsubstantiated."  There is good evidence, just not proof that prayer is the cause.  (4) Finally, there are the transformed lives that result from the miracles.

Berserk 

Your examples do not make sense. Perhaps its your wording so I will ask you to clarify.  For example you said that RS prayed and his spinal cord injury was healed bu God  and then he converted in response to the healing.  . If he did not believe in God,  why would he pray to something he or she did not believe existed? If he converted from another faith, than he or she would have prayed to the God or Gods as he understood it through his religion. Why would he convert to another religion if his prayers had been ansered by a different kind of God or Gods?

Alex,

A Christian pastor asked to pray for RS and he was healed.  Apparently,  RS was in the process of exploring spiritual options.  When I was  a pastor in NY state, a non-Christian couple asked our prayer group for prayer for their new baby, whose prognosis was death within a week due to devastating illness.  We prayed and the baby amazingly recovered.  Later, the Dad got cancer.  We prayed and the cancer went into remission.  But I understand that the cancer later returned and took his life.  So one can go mad wondering why one is healed and the other is not.  There is so much we don't know about dvine sovereignty and the principles of effective prayer.  But prayer does work, even if not always in the way we would wish or wiith the consistency we would wish.  I also need to recognize that I have spiritual limitations in this respect. 

Chansen is an atheist; so I don't expect him to pray or even use this as a means of exploring whether there really is a loving God.  What breaks my heart is that, in my experience,, such a willingness to explore makes it much more likely that prayers by supporters will be answered.  But God did not consult me when God created the rules governing the survival and fate of human consciousness. 

Berserk, I'm completely at my wits end.  My son is in a coma, with noted neuroligical damage.  I would do anything for him.  I see what you have to offer, and you have nothing.  You don't want to make my son feel better - you want to feel more influential by bringing people to believe as you do.  You think you're selling hope, but you're actually selling lies, and you're charging a person their common sense and self-respect.

You are a fraud.

Chansen,  you are being unreasonable.  (1) I posted those miracles before I knew of your son's condition.  (2) Alex asked for clarification of my post.  So I provided it.  (3)  I prayed a long time for Carter today.  I noted that, in my experience, healings occur when prayer is requested, but that, as an atheist, you cannot be expected to pray.  So I was merely expressing my frustration that experience does not correspond to the way I think healing should be acitivated.  Then I confessed to Alex that,when our prayer group rejoiced in the healing of a baby whose prognosis was a week of life, the baby's Dad died a couple of years later, after an initial remission that led us to believe that he too had been permanently healed.  In short, I was not offering false hope; I was lamenting that fact that I feel inadequate to deal with such situations because God does not respond as consistently as my inagination says God should.  But I will continue praying for Carter regardless.  It's the only thing I can do. 

Rather than discussing what God is not, for us. I am going to consider how I understand God is.

DaisyJane's articulation of God, and why she has gone back to school was helpful.

It is why I hang ot listening to Pan, and exploring with others

Trying to find the language to how I have come to understand God....in the heartbeat of the world...in the tides and the wind....in the first breath that i breathe every morning....and in the conversations late at night.....

it is difficult when the predominate language /words is in the language that Berserk is comfortable with...and does not describe faith for me.