This is such an important topic and sounds like it should be a meaningful and powerful event. I'm glad to know this is happening at St James in Montreal, Mikeymo. I hope all goes well (I'm in Vancouver - but will be thinking of you all there on Wednesday).

 Thank you Myst for your support! I am very much looking forward to this important discussion.

Be sure to 'LIKE' our BELIEVE page on Facebook!

I'm not close enough to come to the event but am wishing you and everyone involved well - it's so important to have these discussions.  Hope you let us know how it goes.

TL

It would be really nice to see the congregations who are still turning blind eyes have this discussion. I know of a church that does not utter the word. Good luck in Montreal.

 I will most definitely update everyone on how the evening went. Thanks for your support.

 Thanks Crazyheart,

Our BELIEVE group at St. James is trying to move mountains and break down the barriers created out of hatred and homophobia.

I know that it is an uphill climb. We are truly forging ahead and making a VISIBLE DIFFERENCE!

Good luck from Vancouver Island - if I were in Montreal, I'd definitely come.

 Thank you to Vancouver Island! I TRIPLE LOVE Vancouver!

Any suggestions as to PERSPECTIVES or opinions to bring to the discussion table? Your input is helpful and greatly appreciated!

 How do you think parents can help their gay children to grow towards a strong sense of self?

Do you have a coming out story or an incident of bullying to share? I plan to read posts from this thread during our gathering on Wednesday night. Words of encouragement for our guest speaker mom are most welcome as well!

LOL - Vancouver is not on Vancouver Island.

Now back to the point...

I am not homosexual, nor am I a parent, however I do a lot of work with kids - including as a Sunday School teacher. Our congregation is going through the Affirming process, and we wanted to involve the children in some way. As part of this, my minister decided to read the story, "And Tango Makes Three," by Peter Parnell and Justin Richardson. It's an apparently true story about two gay penguins who build a nest in the Central Park Zoo. The zookeeper gives them an egg to take care of. At the end of the story, my minister invited the children to ask questions. There was only one question - and my minister and I were both amazed at the only question: "Where did the zookeeper get the egg?" They had no concerns about it being cared for by two males - they just wanted to know that every penguin was treated fairly and that there was a good reason that the egg had been removed from it's original nest. The kids in our congregation are so accepting, that at church I would never anticipate an issue around a child with homosexual parents. In our church you will find gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgendered individuals - who are welcomed and accepted for who they are.

In the wider community, I haven't noticed many issues around homophobia. I know several children with homosexual parents - and I've never seen any kids make an issue of it. If an issue were to occur, I would step in and encourage an open discussion where similarities and differences in all families would be talked about.

I hope that helps!

 Thank you somegal! I will read your story of the 2 male penguins.... truly wonderful.

I am glad that you have not witnessed homophobia, hopefully things are changing! I am also glad that you would encourage an open discussion.

Unfortunately though, speaking as a gay man, homophobia is at a crisis level in North America, as too many gay teens are taking their own lives, because of hatred and ignorance.

This discussion needs to occur across our nation. We need to stand together and say as a country: ENOUGH!

I am always saddened when I hear of discrimination of any sort: homophobia, racism, sexism, etc. I'm always glad to hear of groups who are fighting against it. Good luck to you and the people of St. James!

I think that's wonderful. I hope eyes and hearts are opened. Recently I saw something on facebook encouraging people to cut and paste to your status (I did) basically saying that you would be an accepting friend to anyone dealing with homophobia or other pressures, that you would be a safe person for them to come to if they were hurting and thinking of suicide or anything like that. Any one of us might be the only person someone could come to so it's vitally important they know the door is open and they will find love and acceptance.

The same way parents help any child grow a strong sense of self - accept the child as a person with their own ambitions. 

Be protective without suffocation.  Be encouraging without abdication.  Be nourishing of body and mind.  Permit missteps, mistakes and failure.  Support self made solutions.  Provide safety without imprisonment.

No one or two people raise a child.  Each and everyone of us has an impact on the child we encounter, whether our own or another's.  Do not place all the responsibility on one or two people, place it where it belongs, on all of us.

LB

You may not control all the events that happen to you, but you can decide not to be reduced by them. 

     Maya Angelou, Letters to My Daughter

 Thank you everyone for your amazing feedback, comments & suggestions. I am blown away by the support!

LBmuskoka  

Hey everyone... you rock! So tonight is the discussion, any other stories or words of encouragement you wish to share?

I agree with LB, it takes a village to raise a child. Unfortunately not all parents and families are accepting of their gay children... Sometimes its a life-long process of desperately needing your parents to love you unconditionally. So many gay teens' self-esteem is in the toilet, which leaves them open to bullying and ultimately suicide. Many young gays are broken and do not see that they have outlets for support.

I know the PSA is It Gets Better, but does it truly?

We need change desperately... This is a crisis.

thanks for the invite :)

 It Can Get Better, but like all other things "we have to MAKE it better". 

We hope and pray parents are supportive.

What about us? Are we there to teach parents to be?

Is there silence that can feel like condemnation, or confusion (mixed message or uncertainty)?

Does your church think a marriage policy is too touchy? What message does that send? Now is the time to get one. A no is better than a "step forward and find out". 

Have you said "your child can get married, but not yours"? What message does that send? 

What message does it send to be a member from Sunday school on and not know if you could be married? 

Ask yourself, really ask yourself, "what causes the message that dead is better than gay"?For some, they have buried their child who they would have been ok with but they were denied that chance. Some times, their answer has been "we cracked lots of gay jokes" or "we used language that sent that message".

Do not lose a child, grandchild, member of the community, not one more person BEFORE you ask "how can I make it better"?

Does anyone know why these attacks seem to coming from the younger generation? Or is it just my imagination?

waterfall - because the last 15+ years have seen an enormous rise in the religious right, which, of course, leads directly to an enormous rise in hatred and discrimination against homosexuals.  The two go together pretty conclusively.  Teens today have never known a world like that of the 80s and early 90s, when acceptance was on the rise.  Far from complete, but increasing.  Since that time, it has been decreasing.  Kids know what they learn from their parents, from their schools, from the adults in their lives.  We have school boards that ban books that even mention same sex parents, we have churches controlled by bigots and hate mongers, and political and media forces that continue to have the conversation about whether non-hetero people are full people or not.

If that is the world you grow up in, then that is what you will know.

These deaths lie directly and squarely at the feet of the right wing, and those who promote and share that narrow world view.

 waterfall, 

I read something about Islamaphobia and correlating the surge in US soldiers, because the 911 kids are reaching adulthood. It is what they have been steeped in.

For the US, the raging debate on gay rights and gay marriage has been their whole (though short)lives. It is a very divisive issue. The talks or diatribes at dinner tables and on tv can be overwhelming. It is hard enough getting a zit at 13 let alone hearing someone say "they will burn in hell" or "they ought to just ship them off to an island" (both heard in my house as a kid) or "they deserve capital punishment" (also heard).

I am lucky enough to be alive.

If anyone reading is ever in that place that dead seems better than gay, I am there. 

I'm not sure that's a fair assessment RevMatt. Are your statements supported by facts? It may be part of the reason but do you really think it's the only reason?

So the "love the sinner, hate the sin" crap is being translated into torture the sinner?

I have worked with youth from preschool through high school.   I would say that many youth are quite open and accepting. 

I had one teenage girl talk about her girlfirend quite nonchalantly in front of me.  I was a teacher assistant at her high school.  The teachers, staff, and parents seemed to be more concerned about things (sexual orientation, gender presentation)  than the youth were.  Staff seemed oblivious to "that's so gay" in the classroom/halls.  Heterosexism was alive and well. 

When teachers have to be closeted in their workplace- how can kids be open?  I had a guidance counsellor tell me that he did not want to "push [children] into a sexual orientation" and that is why he would not refer gay youth to supports in the community.

The principal of the school banned "goth makeup"- which translated to eyeliner on male students- truly a safety hazard or just gender conformity in action? THe GSA (Gay- Straight Alliance) had very little support from administration.  The group had been running for a couple years but when I took over as staff co- ordinator I had admin. member (a closeted gay man) tell me that he thought what we were doing was important but that he couldn't back me if there were parent complaints.  I only felt freedom to be co- ordinator as I was not tied to working in schools (have a social work degree) and I had been part of a social justice organization within the school-  approache dthe GSA from a "rights" perspective- I was not out as bisexual at the time.

If you google some of the events that have happened in the US recently-  a young woman was denied having her picture in her school yearbook because she wore a tux rather than a dress, a transgender boy who had been nominated prom king by the student body was refused his crown-  you will see that many times it is the adults who refuse the rights of others....

What can we do? 

Encourage GSA's in schools,  join PFLAG (Parents and Friends of Lesbians and Gays), talk to children about diversity issues, watch your assumptions (does the little niece always have to be teased about having a "boyfriend"?) and language.  Educate yourself and others.  If you are pro equal rights and freedom- speak up!  The life you save might be that of someone close to you......

Mikeymo,

if I were there, I would just show this wonderful bit.  It says pretty much everything:

Yes, I couldn't agree more Saul_now_Paul. God and only God gets to decide what sin is. I believe that that is because sin is whatever runs contrary to God's own character. It is for this reason that I think things like pedophilia and rape are sins. A loving relationship between two persons, however, just may not be same.

-----

Personally, if people want to get together to discuss ways to deter others from bullying, and suicide, I'm all for such a meeting. 

Hey thinking of you tonight Mikeymo.  Wishing you and your church well with the discussion and sharing that is/will be happening.  Interested to hear how it goes.

Best wishes.

TL

I think the "right wing" may have something to do with the buildup of hatred, but I'm not sure it's the only thing.

There is no one thing, there is an accumulation of things. 

For those whose adolescence is but a mere memory, cast your mind back to those days.  Try and remember what it was like to be a teenager.  Remember the ingroups and the outgroups - which did you belong.

I still remember being heart broken by young love.  It was the second great heart break of that year.   I remember walking down a dark deserted highway, all alone, thinking it would all be so much better if I was dead.  I would never find another love like that.   I recognized the pattern.  The problem had to be me.  It wasn't them.  They were perfect.   I was 15 and life was an overwhelming drama.

I can look back on that moment and dismiss it as a childish tragicomedy  but ... I still remember that feeling of utter loneliness under that vast dark sky.  I still feel it sometimes when I look out a darkened window.   For some that moment never goes away.  It is reinforced by events in the sunlight.  There is a constant reminder from parents, significant adults, music, news events, your own peers that you really are all alone even in the sunshine.

Loneliness is a killer.  Creating locked doors with language and action are a contributing cause.  For those that have experienced that darkness, be the survivor you are and share not just your strength but show your weakness.  For those lucky enough to have escaped the void, step out of your insular world for 10 minutes and imagine what it is like to feel all alone in a room full of people.

Be aware, or remember, that to the one experiencing such pain even those "helpful" people, those "kind" people, who say such things as This too shall pass or Its just a phase are full of shit.  This is not helpful, kind though it may be.  It is dismissive.  It adds salt to an open wound.  At that moment there is no end in sight, there is only a long dark road ahead. 

Don't say anything.  Let the other person talk.  Let them cry.  Acknowledge their fear.  All the while hold their hand and walk down that highway beside them.  Let them know they are not all alone in the dark

LB

I am like a falling star who has finally found her place next to another in a lovely constellation, where we will sparkle in the heavens forever.
     Amy Tan

 Good evening everyone!

I just wanted to update this thread to thank everyone for your wonderful feedback and positive wishes!

Our BELIEVE gathering on Wednesday evening was AH-MA-ZING!!!!!!!

Our guest mom speaker opened her heart and shared her story with light, compassion and hope!! What a beautiful spirit! She is 100% hands down, a mother who GETS IT, when it comes to finding out that your child is gay.

BELIEVE members in attendance, asked our guest mom questions as well as shared their reactions to her story.

The conversation then moved to the suicides. We shared our coming-out stories & what it was like growing up gay as young teens. Many suffered at the hands of bullies, and some thought about suicide.

We are living in an EPIDEMIC everyone!!!!!!! Our world is in crisis!!!!! We need to stand together and there needs to be a North American call to ACTION!!!!!!

Please wear purple on Wednesday, in memory of those who have taken their lives.

Peace + Blessings,

M

BELIEVE

LBMuskoka, thank you for opening the dialogue about being young and feeling alone and your imagery of darkness.

The angst is magnified by the shadows of a closet and the silence one needs to stay there. If you cannot share who you are, you cannot share how you feel. You are alone. It is not a feeling, you are alone.

Do those who pined recall that from their youth? The ache?
Imagine feeling you would never being able to say it...to anyone... ever...to live in those days of silent pining.... torment.... forever. It is where many GLBT teens are. Can you imagine?

Do you recall working up the nerve to tell someone you liked them? You worried they would reject you, not like you that way, make fun of you even.
Imagine adding to that that if you are wrong it has the potential to ruin your life. No melodrama here, if they tell clergy or parents or teachers... you are "out" and coming out is not always a life affirming experience for some it results in a beating or homelessness... Can you imagine?

Do you recall telling someone of your feelings and not having them returned? Unrequited love, the heartbreaking pain....Ever have anyone tell that you said you liked them and feel mocked and riduculed?
Imagine adding to the heartbreaking pain the terrifying fear that it might "out" you. That it might be something teachers gossip about or that mom and dad hear about... Can you imagine?

Do we recall having a broken heart? Calling Casey Kassem (giving away my age) or some other radio dj (now vj) and requesting some song to cry to? Your friends all knew that so-and-so "ruined your life"... If "your song" came on they expected you would be a mess, seeing them would be the same.... your circle protected you.
Imagine a heart shattering and no person can ever hear it break. Can you imagine? My heart broke and nobody could know. She lived a road over and nobody thought anything of putting us in social circles together. After all, "we were friends".  "Our song" would come on and we could not cry. The motto was "never let on". I still have no words for the pain that made me grab a garbage bag of clothes in my twenties and walk away from my own life there (where she was). If I am honest, it was me wanting to stay alive. 

When we can find empathy, we can find that we understand. Then, if we can get how prejudices and silences magnify it ... we can decide that we must let our children, all our children, know they do not have to hide or be in a closet. Then they can share. Then, they are not alone!

Beautifully written SG.

My empathy can only go so far as my imagination so I always hope that it goes far enough to be a help and not a hindrance.

Very recently, yesterday in fact, a friend told me that her adult child was gay.  This was a person who peppered her conversation on GLBTs with all the usual negative stereotypes.  I suspect that such language impacted on her child's ability to talk to her about their orientatiaon and why there had been a significant distancing in their relationship in the past few years.  A distancing that she felt and was hurt by.

Her viewpoint has drastically changed by the knowledge that her own child is gay.  Her language has changed.  Now she is experiencing first hand the ostracism and isolation GLBTs experience not just by "outsiders" but her own family members, her own loved ones, who now refuse to allow her child a place to stay when they come to town.

This is a young person who one day was considered successful, top of the class in university, someone to be proud of, to the next, despite still being all these things,  becoming a pariah to those who claimed responsibility for that success.  Fortunately his mother is a she bear and immediately responded with love, acceptance and protectiveness.

I do not fear for either of these two people.  I know the child, the history that allowed them to grow strong and confident despite a number of struggles and life's inherent unfairness. 

I know the mother, a woman that has always been a force to contend with when it comes to her convictions.  They both will find others to share their light.

I do feel sadness for the family members who are excluding this person, and ultimately the mother, from their lives.  It is they who are being left behind in the dark.

Incidently as an aside, in this particular case my friend has become more aware of other forms of ostracism, particularly in the form of race.  She has become more sensitive to the plight of the Other because she has experienced - for the first time - what the Other feels.  For some imagination is not enough to create empathy one must taste it first hand to let it grow.

LB

 But groundless hope, like unconditional love, is the only kind worth having.
      John Perry Barlow, The Death of Cynthia Horner 

I recommend reading the whole that this quote was taken from.  It made me say wow at the end.  Its a side track but it is also a beautiful statement about love and loss.

LB,

Thank you for "The Death of Cynthia Horner" article.

As I read it, I realised how much it echoed my feelings about my husband's premature death.

Sad though our loss was, I can't help feeling that Cynthia's partner would now share with me the same sense of gratitude for having - however briefly - a soul mate in our lives.

I have a niece who's a lesbian. As she once had a relationship with a friend's son for two years, needless to say when she rung me from interstate to tell me her news I was a bit stunned.

I was also pleased that she, now that she no longer has her mother, felt she could confide in me for the support she wanted.

She asked me to arrange an outing with my side of her family to meet her new partner, as "the P......'s have always been accepting whatever the situation"

Sure enough even my Mum (her grandmother) took it in her stride, "I just want you to be happy, dear."

Mum blotted her copybook somewhat, after a glass of bubbly, by adding, "If you had a relationship with two young men, dear, doesn't that mean you're one of these bisexuals?"

As any of my siblings could tell you - we didn't have an easy childhood.

But we're all immensely proud of both our parents for bringing us up to like people.

That's why, although it's sometimes difficult, I search for the face of God in everyone I meet.