efficient_cause,

There is a difference between middle ground and common ground. Sometimes there is not much room for middle ground. There is always room for common ground.

Yes there is. It's such an emotionally charged issue that we don't find it often. The thing is few Americans believe that abortion should be completely without restriction and fewer still want it outlawed completely. A large majority of Americans want abortion legal, but not anything goes. I suggest that the most extreme nuts (like Randall Terry) be ignored completely and amongst the rest of the country we have more in common than some might think.

A recent poll showed that 51% of Americans call themselves pro-life and 77% of Americans want abortion to remain legal. Of the 23% who want abortion to be legal some will make exceptions for rape, incest, and when the woman's life and/or health is in danger (this poll didn't give specifics on that part of things, but it's typically 40-60% of those who want to outlaw abortion). That looks like some common ground to me.

Most women I know say they would not choose abortion for themselves, but want it legally available to a degree.  I'd say that is middle ground from full blown criminality to laissez-faire acceptance. 

Most women I know say they would not choose abortion for themselves, but want it legally available to a degree.  I'd say that is middle ground from full blown criminality to laissez-faire acceptance. 

Good article.  Obama's speech sounded very similar to what I would want to hear from a pulpit.

Safe. Legal. And Rare.

I think that is the path to the middle ground.  THe question of course is how do we define and get to Rare?

connection problems led to multiple posts

ditto

Well, those of us who lean pro-choice tend to think that there's middle ground.  I'm not so sure that the anti-abortionists (or anti-choice, pro-life, etc), many if not most of whom consider it to be murder, will accept that any middle ground can be found.  If you look at their rhetoric (murder, dead babies, genocide, holocaust, etc) it's pretty hard to get the concession that any abortion can be allowed to happen. It's a direct result of their thought process which gives the same value to a zygote as a fully developed human being .

So I think I agree with StevieG on this one.  Middle ground may be found for a small minority, but common ground may be what we need to seek in order to help bring some civility to this debate.

On a semi-related point, The Daily Show went in a funny direction while commenting on the speech - who is Barack Obama?  It turns out he's Cliff Huxtable (May 18th on thecomedynetwork.ca videos).

efficient_cause,

all WCers have in them cell cultures of one aborted girl whose mother couldn't afford her.

it is thanks to these cells that we no longer have to worry aboot diseases that used to be common like Diptheria and Smallpox.

it is a shame that abortion has become so polarized in such a short time.

it is a shame how a few people's irrational views have spread. maybe this is just a phase. or it could be another instance of what Robert Heinlein called 'The Crazy Years'.

Just a self-writing poem,
Inannawhimsey

I really like the notion of "common ground" to replace "middle ground". Much more is likely to happen with that frame of reference!

Abortion should be only voted on by women. It is completely insane that the abortion laws to date have largely been written by man.

Abortion should be only voted on by women. It is completely insane that the abortion laws to date have largely been written by man.

I think it's a matter that anti-abrtionists first have to make  up their minds about. Do they want to save babies? Or do they just want to demonstrate their own moral superiority?

If they want to save babies, then simply banning abortion is not the way to do it. Abortion has been with us for centuries, and probably practiced far more widely than we can ever guess - and, of course, with terrible, unintended side effects. For most of modern history aboriton hasn't even been mentioned. but it has happened anyway.

The laws permitting abortion should stay - not because we necessarly approve of it but because it will happen anyway, and if it is illegal, it will be done with the terrible side effects.

If anti-aortionists really want to save lives, they should stop yelling at women, and seek out ways to care for the babies they will encourage women to have.

graeme

Should pro-lifers be allowed to publically demonstrate/propagandize against abortion?

LL&P

Spock

Yes, I believe that anti-abortion demonstrations fall under free speech (provided they don't break the law while demonstrating, of course).

But do these demonstrations and their inevitable counter-protests really lead to anything useful?  Middle ground is thrown out the instant a placard is raised, or a chant begun.  Common ground is almost impossible to find.  Most of these events seem to dissolve into a cacophony.

Isn't pro-choice the middle ground? The two extremes would be no abortion at all and always doing abortions. Nobody's dumb enough to be in the latter extreme so there is only one extreme that can actually have followers. I think this makes people think that pro-choice is an extreme in the issue but really it can't be because it allows both extremes to happen at the discression of the pregnant woman.

The rhetoric coming from the most strident of anti-abortionists would suggest that 'pro-choice' does not exist; rather, you are 'pro-abortion', apparently insisting that abortion must be a good thing and happily suggested to every pregnant woman.

At one time I thought that "prevention of unwanted pregnancies" would be a common for those in both "pro- choice" and "pro- life" camps. 

However, I soon met people who did not agree that comprehensive sex education, inexpensive, readily available birth control, and support for families were a part of this plan.  Apparently, sex education and birth control are also "sins" on par with abortion to some people. 

I am firmly pro- choice and believe that abortions should be "safe, legal, and rare."  I do not know if I personally would choose abortion (but I am also comfortably middle class, in a relationship, and have always wanted children).  I do not believe in forcing people to remain pregnant or to have an abortion.  I do not think abortions are "used for birth control" as much as some people would like to suggest.  This issue, like most others, has many shades of grey.

Shawna

At one time I thought that "prevention of unwanted pregnancies" would be a common for those in both "pro- choice" and "pro- life" camps. 

However, I soon met people who did not agree that comprehensive sex education, inexpensive, readily available birth control, and support for families were a part of this plan.  Apparently, sex education and birth control are also "sins" on par with abortion to some people. 

I am firmly pro- choice and believe that abortions should be "safe, legal, and rare."  I do not know if I personally would choose abortion (but I am also comfortably middle class, in a relationship, and have always wanted children).  I do not believe in forcing people to remain pregnant or to have an abortion.  I do not think abortions are "used for birth control" as much as some people would like to suggest.  This issue, like most others, has many shades of grey.

Shawna

The fact that most (not all) anti-abortion people are also anti-sex education and against increased availabitlity of birth control tells me that they aren't really dealing with reality. They just want to shout at and condemn anybody who doesn't spend their entire life taking lots of cold showers. If preventing abortions actually meant anything to them they'd change many of their other positions. It also is why a majority (yes, a majority) of anti-abortion people don't want excepts for when the woman's life or health is threatened. They would rather see a woman die than have a legal abortion. In what universe is that "pro-life"?

I'm pro-choice.  And I think it should be legal.  I wouldn't choose to have one if it were up to me (you know...if I got pregnant xD)  but im fine with other people making up their own minds.  Like my Girlfriend.  We've talked about this, and while she is pro life, i'm not sure if she is also pro-choice.  I'd say so just from cursory observation.

Anywho, I think pro-choice is as close to middle ground as you can get in this arguement.

As-Salaamu Alaikum

-Omni

I had a dear sweet girlfriend in college and she was anti-abortion. I was sensing that maybe it was going to end. I don't remember specifially the events but I remember my feelings very clearly. Eventually she spent two years in Guatemala as a missionary and that was the end of the relationship. I didn't "dump" her and technically she never "dumped" me but she did deliberately try and pull back some leading up to that and refused to make me promise to wait for her. Yes I know I could have anyway but I wanted her to want me to. I know that's weird. Anyway I confessed to having the thought of impregnating her (we were sexually active but EXTREMELY careful, we usually doubled up on protection like sponge and a condom, or something like that) so she would "have" to stay with me, even marry me. I don't remember the exact words but it was to the effect that she'd probably have an abortion. This is someone who is completely "pro-life" and no two ways about it. The thing that still stands out is she was a sweetheart too. Normally that level of contradiction brings up awful images of a person but that's really not the case here. Now that I've posted this I'm missing her so much it hurts. I saw her a time or two after she got back (and a few care packages sent and phone calls received while she was away) but somewhere along the way I lost touch completely and I hate that. If anyone knows a sweet beautiful blonde with dimples that graduated from Appalachian State let me know.

Quite right.

Safe, legal, and rare.   But they are not rare.  The numbers are out of control.

I also think abortions should be delisted under health care services except in cases where the mother's life is in immediate danger.

What are those numbers, Serena? Can you provide them and your source? I've heard you make this statement before and I'm curious about it. I admit to being skeptical since, if it were so, I think we'd be hearing about the drain on the health-care system by our right-wing governments.

I agree that our present situation is the middle group between no abortions ever and all pregnancies being medically terminated.

Yup.

Re: should anti-abortionists be allowed to demonstrate - absolutely. But not in front of clinics or hospitals. We have a constant cycle of demonstrators holding giant signs of (supposedly) aborted foetuses circling the area just off the property of a local women's hospital. The intent is to scare and intimidate and humiliate girls and women. I believe the law should allow for a very wide radius in which demonstrations cannot occur around a care provider's facility. 

Serena, if we didn't have as many abortions as we are having now, the global population would be well over 7 billion by now. Do you think that's worth having the world a little more moral by your standard?

Oooooo...  No issue with safe or legal?  Is this a pro-choice fundy?  How wonderful!  The aspect of 'rare' is more related to the pregnancy rate and programs dealing with unwanted pregnancies (e.g. adoption), so thus is outside the issue of abortions per se, as I see it.

Here's the last (available) 10 years according to the first Google hit (http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/policy/abortion/ab-canada.html):

1996  107870

1997  111526

1998  110223

1999  105631

2000  105454

2001  106323

2002  105383

2003  104099

2004  100763

2005   97254

This isn't what I'd call 'out of control' - it seems to be on the right track (downward), but if the unwanted pregnancy rate could go down, clearly it would be beneficial.  And I suggest that - at the absolute minimum - rape victims plus first time girls and women should be added to your list.  I'm rather aghast that you feel that a, say, impoverished 14 year old girl raped or seduced/coerced by a member of your clergy (all hypothetically speaking, of course) and possibly disowned, should pay her own way.

Statistics Canada tracks abortion rates.

26 women out of every 1000 in their 20's had an abortion in 2003. That's 2.6%. Among teenaged girls it was even lower - 1.5% of teenaged girls had an abortion. In addition, the total number of abortions sought is declining year after year, not increasing.

These statistics were published in The Daily for Wednesday, March 15, 2006.

I would say that 1.5% and 2.6% would not qualify as abortion rates being "out of control".

I would also wager - though it cannot be quantified - that abortion rates are down, especially among teenaged girls, because society is doing a better job at supporting them and making teen pregnancy less of a shameful situation, and more of a challenge for the community to rise to. More sex education, more childcare facilities in high schools, more infant and child programs directed at young mothers, etc.

I wouls also point out that the vast majority of these initiatives that support young mothers do not come from lobbying by the people who are busy demonstrating against a woman's right to choose. They tend to be championed by us 'liberals'.

Go figure.

Indeed.