Dinah was the daughter of Leah and Jacob

It is the sad storyof a woman who leaves the safe confines of her tent to meet the local women of Shechem, where her family lived. She has a sexual encounter. Some translations say rape. We don't know any of Dinah's feelings about this because she does not have a voice in this scripture.

But "rape" may be misplaced. It says Shechem "spoke to her heart" which suggests that she may have had feelings for him as well.

It is interesting to note that this story through history is called "The rape of Dinah"

I believe that it was in the 'All The Women of the Bible' book that was loaned to me a few years ago and I no longer have that I read that Dinah was a 'bad' person because instead of staying at home in her father's tent in the company of her eleven brothers, she gadded about the countryside looking for adventure and putting herself in harms way without considering the consequences.  I was furious when I read this for from these few lines in the scripture I don't see it that way.

Dinah was the only girl in this large family group.  She lived with her father, his four wives, and eleven older brothers (Benjimin had not yet been born).  Is it any wonder that she was attracted to the young people of the country - that she wanted to spend time with them, to make friends.

I tend to agree with Crazyheart that the 'rape' was questionable since the Bible is clear that the young man loved Dinah and wanted to marry her.  That doesn't sound like a forceful rape but rather pre-marital sex between two consenting young people.  No we don't hear Dinah's voice - not once do we hear that she was consulted or asked how she felt about anything, nor do we hear from her mother or the other wives for that matter.  Her father and brothers made the decisions for her.

The marriage was arranged between the two fathers - clearly a business deal.  And the resulting murder that was arranged by the brothers clearly didn't have Dinah's best interest at heart.  It was to destroy the people and cease their possessions.  Revenging their sister's rape was just an excuse.  Uniting the two families in marriage gave them the opportunity they needed.

Who was Dinah?  What was she like?  How did she feel?  What happened to her after her new husband and all his family were murdered?  It is interesting to speculate.

The novel, The Red Tent, is based on these events.  It is fiction of course but based on the facts given to us.  It rounds out the story, puts some meat on the bare bones, and gives us a glimpse into what life might have been like for women in those days.

One thing I do doubt about the novel - I think it rather fanciful that Dinah escaped to Egypt.  I think it more likely that she was dragged back home in disgrace by her brothers.

In the storytellers Companion to the Bible - Genisis - they write this- legendhas it that when she returned to her home, Dinah was going to have a baby. When the child was born, the brothers wanted it dead, thinking that the Canaanite ppeople might say terrible things about Dinah and the little girl. But Jacob put his granddaughter under a bush with a  medallion around her neck that said "Holy to God". Then an angel Michael took the child to Egypt, where she was raised as the daughter of a priest and his wife, who had no children.

Others say Dinah went to Egypt when Joseph brought the rest of the family.

Still others say she was the second wife of Job, after his fortunes were restored.

I don't know where legends get started but we could probably say that all of Genesis is a legend.

Hi, just thought I would add that if it says the he siezed her, lay with her & humbled her, how can someone not see that as rape. seized? humbled? sounds like rape to me.

I doubt very much being with a cannanite wouldv'e apealed to a daughter of Jacob as they saw them as scum of the earth.

Which in turn, made it impossible for them to do buisness with. Ha!

Jacob was by then a pretty popular guy & had wealth.

Well that's all I realy have to offer on that story realy.

Thanks for reading.

Bolt

The sons of Jacob do it again. Or wait, this was before they threw their brother Joseph in a pit and sold him as a slave.

I am totally biased, after reading The Red Tent, in thinking that Dinah would have been happiest marrying Sechem, not having her brothers murder the whole %^&* house. As if they never "lay with anyone." Bah.

I take this far too much to heart, clearly.

 i love that novel, the red tent. Some found it a bit sacriligious as it paints not the nicest picture of matriarch Rebecca but each to their own. It was still a compelling read.

The Red Tent, I think I remember that movie, isn't that with George C Scott in it?

It could be my emagination but I remember a movie called the Red Tent, can someone eles varify this?

I was taken to that movie when I was a little 4- 5 y/o boy at a drive in & I remember bits, it was wierd with all the killing of lambs. & I remember seeing what looked like George cry in pain or whatever, I guess He played Jacob.

 I never actually ever went & said I should watch that movie again.

Maybe I'll check it out.

I'll look it up.

I looked it up, the movie with George C Scott wasn't called "The Red Tent", pardon my error.

Bolt

In Helpmates, harlots and Heroes, a feminist interpreter approaches Dinah's story in a different way. She says 'One of the most disturbibg things about the story of Dinah is that Rapists do not fall in love with their victims. This story does not "feel" like a rape story. Did Shechem really rape Dinah?" She feels it is an illiit sexual liason in which there is mutual concent.

 There is no specific Hebrew word for rape.The hebrew root used here that is usually translated "rape" is "nh". Writer, bechtel believes that here this word means "shame."

To her, the sexual union between Dinah and Schechem was considered shameful to Dinah because they were not from the same group, but it is not what we call rape.

It would seem that perhaps the intention was to at least make it as if it wasn't concentual, as it wouldn't look good, if you know what I mean.

But in my honest opinion I believe that she was young & vulnerable, & lets face it rape was a common occurance in those days, if wives didn't wan't sex, men back then took it for the most part if it wasn't concentual.

That age, it was  pretty brutal back then, as they are today but more common was the brutality in a personal way, it was everywhere, where as the internet offers such things in abundance these days. Video games simulate such brutality these days, until it gets to where the desensitizing of the youth of brutal violence is a given.

Bolt

DINAH

judged; vindicated, daughter of Jacob by Leah, and sister of Simeon and Levi (Genesis 30:21). She was seduced by Shechem, the son of Hamor, the Hivite chief, when Jacob's camp was in the neighbourhood of Shechem. This led to the terrible revenge of Simeon and Levi in putting the Shechemites to death (Genesis 34). Jacob makes frequent reference to this deed of blood with abhorrence and regret (Genesis 34:30; Genesis 49:5-7). She is mentioned among the rest of Jacob's family that went down into Egypt (Genesis 46:8, 15).

By the way, welcome, Bolt , to the Cafe. Nice of you to join in.

Hi Trish: I read that novel a year ago, and loved it, too. Brings the OT to life, doesn't it?

Is there a rape that is not physical?

Does this story bring any lessons for us today?

For me rape is all about power and has very little if anything to do with sex. Developed countries rape third world countries every day. Economically, environmentally, and socially. The powerful rape those with no power every day. Isn't that what Empire is all about?

What lessons are we suppose to learn from the murderous actions of the brothers?

I have such a different take on things than many. Some of what is viewed as partiarchal appears to be, for me, only because it is told by the men. For me, there is the unspoken side....

So, where am I with Dinah? I see her as being daughter of Leah, but not in a critical, negative like mother like daughter way. I see a positive like mother like daughter thing. 

 I was taught that Jacob not taking Dinah so that Esau could see her, means not that it was Dinah's outgoingness that was the problem, but Jacob's isolation of her. Jacob feared her being corrupted by Esau and the world and as such did not prepare her for life if that be the case. If not, then her character was one of God and her outgoingness was her gift....

You are very kind you kind crazyheart! Maybe you should be named kind heart! LOL!

Thankyou for welcoming me.

kinda crazy

Tomorrow I will post a new woman on another thread. We will look at  TAMAR

Well the thing I got from that was perhaps that this wasn't a plan from God this brutal nature, but yet you look at the old testament, & how brutal the law is & how brutal the exodus was, & how brutal the fight for the promised land was, how brutal the wars were.

How brutal it all realy is in the natural realm where the spiritual things are almost hidden from those who indulge in the natural yet, the true form or fullfillment of the Law that was love became the turning point in the scriptures.

Where you hear in a few cases where Jesus says, "you heard it been said that" & then say  "But I say unto you" So basically what Jesus was doing was iterpreting the scriptures for the religious community, He has the authority to intrepret them as they were written on his heart.

Anyways, I always was puzzled by the brutality of things until you understand who is & was the god of this world! In the natural sense that is.

This may seem a little radical to some here, but it's is honest & it is from the heart.

Bolt

Questions I'd ask are:

o what profession was Dinah?

o what Tribe was she from?

o what G_d(s) did they worship?

o what was her Tribe's relationship to the Hivites?

And go on from there,
Inannawhimsey

could it have been the earliest version of romeo and juliet?  two star crossed lovers, feuding families, killing "cousins".  yes, as bolt points out, rape was common in those days, but i don't think it was rape, i think it was premarital sex.  i agree with seeler that rape is not about "love", it is about power.  rapists do not generally fall in love with their victims and approach their victims fathers to ask for her hand in marriage.  like kappa mentioned,  jacob's sons showed poor lack of judgement more than once.  they needed a good shmack upside the head if you ask my opinion.  they lied to jacob regarding joseph's disappearance and told a fanciful story.  imagine if a story like that made it into the holy bible?  *gasp*  alas, we'll never know the truth of dinah's side of the story.

just a quick question:  could humbled not be likened to humility, whereas you willingly submit yourself to someone/something.  or could the humbled have something to do with pregnancy?  just throwing it out there.

He saw her.

He seized her.

He lay with her.

He humbled her.

Sounds like rape to me. That he later may have had feelings for her does not lessen the crime.

Here's how some other versions of the Bible describe the event (italics mine)...

"When Shechem son of Hamor the Hivite, the ruler of that area, saw her, he took her and violated her." (NIV)

"When Shechem the son of Hamor the Hivite, the prince of the land, saw her, he took her and lay with her by force." (NASB)

"Shechem, the son of Hamor the Hivite who was chieftain there, saw her and raped her." (MSG)

Perhaps this one is most telling...

"But when the local prince, Shechem son of Hamor the Hivite, saw Dinah, he seized her and raped her. But then he fell in love with her, and he tried to win her affection with tender words." (NLT)

I didn't think rapists loved  their victims - before, during or after the rape?

I think it is a story that is written to make women fearful and stay at home or in the company of elders or not venture off.

 I am sure that Dinah was not consulted it sounds like Schechem just grabbed her and did the deed.  It does not sound like a courtship of any kind.  I think we are reading 21st century rose colored glasses and attributing things like romance to this.  Maybe S&M?   Later it says he had sex with her because he liked her???  Isn't that what all rapists say and that it was consentual?  We don't know what Dinah knew about sex at that time and if she realized she was consenting or anything because sex outside of marriage for a rich daughter of a patriarch was not a good thing which is why the marriage was arranged quickly.

Also he may have been attracted to her and she thought she was too good for him so "he humbled" her or a synonym for humbled is humiliated does not sound like a love story to me.

Probably not, she couldve been a trophy, he obviously was a high figure in the clan & it couldv'e been pride perhaps?

exactly.  "defiled" is how my dad would tell this version of my story too.  my dad had a "better handle" on the situation after he talked himself into believing that i had been taken advantage of.  that boy must have "tricked" me.  i was too innocent.  too naive. let's remember who these stories were being retold by.  women had no voice in the bible.

this version of the truth has replayed itself.  romeo and juliet. to kill a mockingbird.

men were also responsible for the interpretation of the bible. hmm.

does anyone have a spare $6,600 so i can buy julia e. smith's version? (only 1000 copies produced in 1876)

CHAPTER XXXIV

AND Dinah the daughter of Leah which she brought forth to Jacob will go forth to see the daughters of the land 2 And Shechem will see her the son of Hamor the Hivite chief of the land will take her and lie with her and will humble her 3 And his soul will cleave to Dinah the daughter of Jacob and he will love the maiden and he will speak to the heart of the maiden 4 And Shechem will say to Hamor his father saying Take to me this maid for a wife 5 And Jacob heard that he defiled Dinah his daughter and his sons were with his cattle in the field and Jacob was silent till their coming The Holy Bible containing the Old and New Testaments By Julia E. Smith, American Bible Society

True women had no voice.  But Jacob was talking about how his property had been used (defiled) she was no longer a virgin and therefore in that time it would have been harder for her to get  married.  So it is doubtful that she "wanted" to be thought of as a harlot.

 Romeo and Juliet was a love story.  Maybe true.  They got married before they slept together.  Romeo did not "defile" Juliet.   Juliet had a choice.  She was not humilated and after the wedding they killed themselves because they figured their families would not allow them to be together.  Jacob and the rapists' father were clearly allowing them to get together.  Jacob may have been nervous after the incident that nobody would want to marry Dinah and he would have a harlot in the family.

This is interesting, that is a valid iterpretation, I would guess.

 The thing is How much either way would it have made a difference in the outcome?

I guess there would be more lessons to be learned from it that's for shure.

bolt

where the heck is agnes?!?! *lol*  she's usually always around for these things.

I think a couple of things are interesting.  Firstly, that dinah is identified firstly as the daugher of Leah.  I think that is unusual.

Secondly that dinah, a maiden is going out on her own.  Jacob was a very important man and that seems odd to me.

why was she alone?  Where were the other women?  her mother??

when it says humbled, i dont' see rape.  Even the term "lay with her" while it goes on to say she has been defiled later on, they dont' use that term there.

After the first instance of mentioning Leah, she doesn't get mentioned again.  It changes form a story of possible rape to one of restoring honour.

and it is very interesting that Jacob, so powerful that he is, waits till his sons come home.  Then lets them take vengence and then blames them for it.

Seems like he is wishing they do his dirty work for him.

So, did jacob suggest to Dinah that she go out that day, knowing the prince was around and the brothers were away?  just to get his hands on the property and defeat the king??

old skool sapranos *lol*

great points by the way lastpointe

I have started another thread on the Rape of Tamar. Post to both if you feel up to it.

There is no other way to keep these active  but to bump