GR, I think your heart is in the right place. Props to you for feeling empathy for Beshpin. Personally, I look forward to walking the streets of gold. At the same time, I believe I enjoy a personal relationship with Jesus Christ in the here and now. This, to me, is the best of both worlds.

Perhaps the key really is in saying "I believe my way is right, but I don't know that it is." and in seeking to learn from the perspectives of others.

Do the streets of gold react with chlorine to form auric chloride?

If not, then what makes the gold different?

I don't even really know what you're talking about. I failed high school chemistry.

Chlorine.  The stuff in swimming pools.  Reacts with gold, forming a gold-chlorine compound.  No chemistry details necessary, beside that.

It just seems odd to me that heaven supposedly uses gold.  What's so special about gold, other than the fact that it's relatively rare on Earth?  There must be some good reason to choose gold, for the streets of God's kingdom to be made of it.

I'd be more interested in your thoughts on the topic which, as we both know, has nothing to do with the composition of any afterlife. You usually have more substantial comments to make.

Indeed jae. And by learning from other perspectives, I would add, coming to undersand how utterly dependent we are on each other and our diversity.

It's rare,  moldable, doesn't tarnish and is beautiful. And not always a medium of exchange.

My guess is that the thought was "It...lasts...forever..."

...and them there pearly gates...made to swing forever.

Sounds not too different from the point of my religion, truth be told. I might use different language, but basically agree with the notion that religion is about how we live in this life and how we view our place in "the interdependent web of all existence" (term from the seventh UU principle) rather than preparing for something else still to come.

My struggle right now is figuring out how any notion of "God" as a personal deity fits in with my current notion of religion/spirituality. While I view the universe as sacred and even "Divine", this is more of a pantheistic faith than any sense of there being a transcendent, personal aspect to the universe. Still reading and meditating on various notions of God that might work for me (e.g. process theology and other forms of panentheism) but I'm increasingly thinking that my spiritual agnosticism will likely end up as spiritual atheism (or maybe some form of pantheism).

Another David

The point of my religion is to bring glory to God. Sometimes I fail utterly. Those are the times that I let God pick me up. Heaven surely is a destination, but the destination should not distract us from the journey. If all anybody focused on was "gettin' to Heaven", then we lose the true focus (in my opinion) of being the hands and feet of Christ to our fellow human beings.

My brother Jae said it best. I certainly look forward when I will be in Heaven, praising the Father and being with the Son. But my relationship with my Lord and Savior Jesus, in this moment till my last moment here on earth is what matters. 

With that being said. I have an apology to make  to a certain atheist.

The point of my religion is to live and spread the unitive awareness that Jesus expressed as "I and the father are one."

This, to me, is bringing glory to God.

Not unto us, O LORD, not unto us but unto thy name be glory, for thy mercy, and for thy truth's sake.

Psalm 115:1

"Streets of gold" is just metaphor isn't it?  the same as land flowing with "milk and honey."

Just means its a description of absolute abundance of untarnished wealth, happiness, peace, not like it is experienced on this sphere.

As Jesus says do not store up treasures on earth where they get rusted and moth eaten. And theives break in and steal it.

I can agree with much of the post, I just get confused with the acceptance of salvation which constitutes 3/4 of NT. It is a more appealing nature to free ourselves from the conscious enslavement of  feeling like sinners under the wrath of almighty God.

Or the terrible after life described for those who don't believe etc. These are the subjects I dwell on in my thoughts. (or try not to) because I am of the notion that when we follow christianity we are kind of mandated to follow a certain way, and I don't these days anyway. I could be labelled a back- slider and turning my back on Gods salvation. Which is subtle in its accusation.

But I agree with learning from many others here, I'd love to sit around a campfire with some of ya and have some beers about it!

The "gold" with which the streets of the heavenly Jerusalem are paved is, I think and feel, the alchemical gold of the awareness or insight of nonduality or synthesis as the ultimate state of being: the awareness that created and creator are one.

Well, GR, you have had me thinking all afternoon.Golden streets and angels floating on clouds would be a hell of a boring way to live out eternity. I  think these are constructs that have been made by folk who need concrete pictures of the afterlife.

No one really knows. No one has come back. Everything that is written about heaven ( and  hell, for that matter) have no basis in fact.

So all I , CrazyHeart, can do is to live the best way that I can in the here and now - making a God connection with everyone I meet and hope to leave  a little footprint in the world for those who come after.

For others who believe in a Heaven up there and a Hell down there, . For those who struggle to believe.  I can respect that.

But I am certain that God did not put us here for nothing - and, someday when we meet in that pub outside the pearly gates, we will all have the answer. But not until then.

Hope you don't mind my abbreviation of your note cf. I wonder if you could expand on the connection you see in the two excerpts above.

What does being "the hands and feet of Christ" mean to you personally?

And I saw that you did so. Kudos to you. I am quite sure that when I get to that bar to the left of the Pearly Gates (maybe I should call it "Lefties" for brevity's sake) I'll be buying a lot of drinks by way of apologies - I plan on being in the place for a good part of eternity.

You say the sweetest things. Thank you.

as with cf, I hope you don't mind my cut and paste job on your note.

Can I ask you to dig into what a "God connection" looks like for you?

It's just inside to the left. Look for a flashing sign with "Lefties" in big, bold neon. Or possibly a dusty saloon with swinging doors. On Saturday nights, I'm thinking of a piano bar with blues.

Don't worry about getting lost though.

One of the intriguing things about "heaven" is that there is no "outside."

HI David

For me, that was one of the "aha" moments of my faith - the recognition of the underlying commonality in so many different "religious" languages. I had always been ecumenical in outlook, as it was impossible to not see the historical branches, often over quite trivial differences, that had resulted in the plethora of Christian denominations.

When I started to find those commonalities within other faiths, and outside of faith, the question simply became - is there, (using Occam's Razor so to speak), an underlying concept that is common to all.

I think this is what keeps so many clinging to the Zeus-god image. They're afraid that, when they let go of it, there'll be nothing left. Not suggesting you're afraid, quite the opposite in fact. Just observing that, for many, the journey you're undertaking is impossible to even contemplate.

For me, the acceptance of a panentheistic element of transcendence to "God" - one which by definition I, as a limited human being, could not comprehend - was liberating.

Heck I can't think on the level of a human like Stephen Hawking in some regards. To think that I could understand the "personal" side of the Universe would be so hubristic as to be comical.

I've forgotten the quote at the moment, but there's a view that makes the word "God" (as in the "personal deity" that you mention) akin to "justice" - a concept that we recognize exists but which we never completely define or attain because it is ever-"becoming".

Yes, yes, yes!!!  I think I might be in a similar place to Mendalla.  I also understand the fear that you mention, GR.  I appreciate my personal relationship with God, and I find it hard to reconcile that personal entity with my growing understanding of the universe.  I'm afraid to lose the comfort and warmth of baby Jesus in the manger and Christmas carols and that very human view of God.  I -say- that I'm becoming panentheistic, but I don't entirely know what that means, and sometimes I think that I'm just clinging to that personal God despite the fact that it doesn't quite make sense.  Sometimes I have been afraid to search more because I feel like I'm on an atheistic path that I don't want to be on.

I reconciled many of the traditional stories of Jesus (and the Bible in general) with my current position when I began reading the Bible as myth and metaphor (a process that began while I was still identifying as Christian). While I may not attach the traditional meanings of the Birth Narrative or the Death and Resurrection to my readings of those stories, I do find meaning in them. For instance, the birth narrative was the story that came into my mind as I held Little Mendalla for the first time 11 and bit years ago. It's just that I find that meaning by reading them as deeply meaningful stories which could be either fiction or non-fiction rather than as accounts of real events.

Mendalla

For me, a personal God, as expressed through Jesus, will always, I hope, make sense. I too, love the warmth and comfort of baby Jesus in the manger and Christmas carols, and I am in no way embarrassed to say that I bawl my eyes out at the incredible intimacy of those images every single year. And at the aching pain that we still cannot accept that relationship.

This is one of the things I understand from folks like Borg, who wrote in Heart of Christianity that, although he could find God in other places than Christianity, he would always be Christian because that was how he understood God best. Similarly, the Dalai Llama has said that, rather than cast about for "better" religions, we should live more deeply within the one we already have. For me, "more deeply" does not mean holding on to doctrine and dogma, but to focus on the living relationship that energizes us.

When we talk about the "transcendent" aspect of God, and our concern that we'll "lose God altogether" if we seek it, I think about this story -

In Greek mythology, Hera goads one of Zeus' human lovers into asking him to reveal himself in his true form to her. When he does, his glory incinerates her.

I think this is what Bill Phipps, when he was UCC Moderator, was getting at when he said that Jesus was "all of God that we could understand." Its too bad that he got so much flak for it.

I'm perfectly content to contemplate a God that I can't understand (how much of a "god" would God be if we could?). I have an aspect of God in which I live and breath and have my being. (and sometimes, that God looks like a kid in his dad's bathrobe, or maybe Linus reciting a few lines, or maybe Johnny Cash singing "I Heard the Bells", or maybe.... well, you get the idea)

DAvid

The following speaks for me and musically to boot 

Note: The UCC of the video is the United Church of Christ an American amalgamation of two denominations and not to be mistaken as the UCC - United Church of Canada a Canadian amalgamation of three denominations.  Also note the Canadian UCC came first and is bigger (although this could be debated; adherents, members, who knows)!  You'd think someone would have made an acronym rule to prevent such confusions.

What was I writing about....oh, just watch the video!

Well, I have had to think again. A God Connection, you ask ? When I look at a sunrise, or when I see my little grandson trying to talk and jump and   when  he gets comfortable and sits back to watch SportsDesk. and yells Go Riders Go.

When I can help someone ; when I can talk to perfect strangers, when I can speak up for someone who is being treated badly, when I can respect what others believe if it is different from what I believe,ministry with Children, and to find that every day God is a part of my life.

Do I do any of these things well. No. But i do the best that I can at any given time.

Struggling with the Jesus thing and the God thing but knowing somewhere deep inside that  God is so many things that I will never figure it out in my lifetime. But maybe that is what God wants of all of us - to keep searching and look at the universe with new eyes - one step at a time.

I put in my application for a gig - that piano is awesome...Bosendorpher..98 keys...

I'm going to play on Sundays...hey! Every day is Sunday up there!

(Hope the crowd likes Boogie-woogie)

=========

Not even a Rainbow Bridge, where my dog is waiting...? (I can tear up just thinking about that wonderous piece)

You know I'm gonna draw a map of that place as I learn more about it:

Piano Bar to the Left...Rainbow Bridge a short walk, gold streets...

(I once heard that Mary has a small cabin down the road...A reporter (How did HE get in heaven?)

went to her and asked her  'how it felt to be the mother of Christ? She said "I was hoping for a girl..."

=========

There's a ram-shackle, run-down building off to one side of a golden pathway...the sign says:

"WonderCafe participants only"

Is there a cafetaria there? Who does the cooking?

Y'lnow, I'm getting a little unclear about that place...

Is Harpo Marx giving angels harp-lessions?

ok it's 4 PM. and I just got up...Ah! My first gallon of coffee...

Time got get the fuzzyness out and take you seriously, again.

I just know, if I wait long enough, I'll  find something to disagree with you about

lol - jae, if that image comes to me this year during a Nativity play, it shall be totally your fault.

Without putting words in your mouth would it be, from the above, safe to say that you find your "God Connection" in the world and the people around you?

Might I suggest that you do them pretty well. I suspect you've been practicing, haven't you?

I think that's exactly what God wants my friend.

As the NT puts it, "truth" isn't static, it's aletheia, ever-unfolding. And we learn about "Jesus and the God thing", as you put it, by recognizing the Presence of God, not in some far away Camelot/heaven, but in the things you wrote in the first part of your note.

DAvid

I shall hold you to that my friend. Maybe you can team up with Billy Joel and Ray Charles. Or Jerry Lee?

"waiting" requires linear time. As you no doubt already know, time has no meaning. Neither, clearly, does "waiting."

By all means. Just remember that a map assumes a fixed and unchanging landscape. "Heaven", like "God", is ever-changing, ever-becoming.

How are you at drawing quantum maps? The kind where the features are dependent upon the observer?

Oh, I'm often disagreeable. Just ask besh or geo/snip/etc.

It's a wonderful piece LBM. Who did you say did it again? (just kidding)

I think one of the things I find most attractive about it is its energy. A lot of "spiritual" we're-all-one stuff tends to lean to the meditate-mystical, which is cool too, but I like the this-is-where-we-live feel of this.

Is that what attracts you to it? That and the fact that it was made here by .... oh wait .... no, I mean .... the "other" United Church. Its in Australia right? ... no, that's the Uniting Church.

Okay, I'll just watch the video again.

HI David...I apologize that I haven't time to read through the whole thread, but I do want to say something...**arm waving in the air and fingers snapping**

Why is it so necessary to some that religion has a point?  Why is it so important that our lives have a purpose?  I must be missing a great boat somehow, because I really don't feel like that.  Do you?

If you go through your days being aware and in awe of all of the goodness and accepting of your own and other's shortcomings...life is rich.  There is no point.  Living fully and loving beautifully...it's a gift; not a point!

"Yes, the lady over there with the lovely dog ... "

If you go through your days being aware and in awe of all of the goodness and accepting of your own and other's shortcomings...life is rich.  There is no point.  Living fully and loving beautifully...it's a gift; not a point!

[/quote]

Wonderful penny. What a beautiful ... uh ... point (sorry, I'm bad, I know).

I was picking up the question besh had asked me, but I agree with you. A "point", like "path", "journey" and other language we often use in connection with faith and spirituality has a built-in connotation of an end, a destination and so on.

I still owe Geo an article about the reason I partially agree with his belief that  "many paths, one destination" is a bad metaphor. Rather than going "to" God, we are forever immersed "in" God.

Thank you for a beautiful image.

David

Heh, we are all Man United! - oh wait that's a soccer club, no, sorry, football club - oh please Mr. Conductor stop the bus the wheels just keep going round and round.

Long ago I lost religion - and I think I'm losing it again - but I have never lost the presence of God.  Like ABPenny, I find God in the wonder of the moment.  It can be any moment; because of where I live the moments are usually natural but I can experience God in people too.  It can be that slow coming smile from a vulnerable person, a child or the ill, when they realize they are with someone they can trust.  It can be that soft spoken word of encouragement said for no other reason than love.  

Those moments, and they may be fleeting but they are daily, give me the faith to carry on.  At some point  in a day I will feel that presence and am lifted by it.  It is personal and universal.  It is in the moment but infinite.

Religion is where things get more complicated and convoluted.  Where even a name may not be what one thinks it is.  It becomes a mirage and each time one gets closer to "finding it", it vanishes in the harsh light of reality.

I embrace Christan faith because it is both my tradition and heritage.  I unknowingly know the meaning of the imagery and symbolism expressed because it has been passed down through the generations.  I embrace it because I believe in Christ's message - at least the message that through tradition and heritage as been passed down to me.

That message sent via my parents and grandparents, Roman Catholic and Protestant, has always been consistent.  A Christian is to care for all that God has created.  In my case the *all* was stressed.  It was not just human but animals, plants and the very soil we sprung from and will return to.

That care was to manifest itself through compassion not judgment.  The message was to act not speak.  We were not sent to change the world or others, just make it better or easier for those we encountered; and if we could not leave this mortal coil a better place at least not leave a mess for the next generation.

My parents and grandparents, aunts and uncles, were/are living embodiments of this message.  They indeed practiced what they preached.  Long before it was fashionable, they embraced the message of Christ that equality was not just some lofty ideal but a practical way of life.  They believed that justice was to be measured with compassion and understanding, not vengeance and privilege.

I learned this message through osmosis - just as I believe my relatives did before me.  It has become ingrained in my very DNA.  My religion is not a label but the very what of who I am.

And I struggle because of it.  I lose my religion when I walk through the doors of a Church and do not see the message being lived as I believe it to be.  I lose it when I see people who call themselves Christians with a capital C act in ways, as Gandhi would say, so unlike our Christ.

So, while I can embrace the intellectual exercise of meditating on the infiniteness of God, smile at the finer debating points of how many angels can dance on the head of a pin or whether the streets of heaven are paved in gold or platinum, I can not disentangle myself from the fundamental belief that Christ demands more, that God wants more, and that more is that we live our lives with the same love that created the planet and her inhabitants.

So I can lose my religion but I can not lose what has become me.

LB

Oh, life is bigger
It's bigger than you
And you are not me
The lengths that I will go to
The distance in your eyes
Oh no, I've said too much
I set it up
     R.E.M, Losing My Religion

Hi GoldenRule,

A little late to the party on this one.  Still, better late, I think, than never.

I've never thought religion was intended to have a point so much as I have always understood religion to be a framework.

When John Calvin wrote "The Institutes of the Christian Religion" he wasn't stipulating what Christianity must believe (he takes that as a given) he was stipulating how it must believe as well as why it ought to believe that way.

With that framework the Christian is equipped to step out into the world and be an ambassador for the Kingdom that is coming.

Religion being more of the ritual/liturgical dimension of a life of faith.

Bearing in mind that this is "your" faith that you are talking about it is important to remember that critique should be limited to how you apply your faith rather than the value of what it is that you believe.

Based on my observation I note that your faith appears other-centred rather than self-centred.  It presumes that relationship with other is primary (be it God or mortal it is still other) and that reconciliation is key.

I would suggest that this very closely resembles the Kingdom that Christ taught about.  It is of more benefit to those around us than it is to us ourselves.  Not that it will not be of benefit to us, we are after all, the other's other.

Well, this is an application of other though not, I think, the application that God desires.  This would be the excluded other whereas up above we are looking at the included other.

The excluded other often functions as scapegoat.  It is the embodiment of evil or the highlight of that which we dislike most about ourselves on the face of someone else.  We react against the excluded other and push that other away.  The included other is one that we exercise some sympathy for and seek to draw near.

While the exercise of finding the other requires us to differentiate (understand where we end and the other begins) it does not require us to assign disparate values to the other than we apply to ourselves.

Again, from observation, a kingdom in which the other is included and not outcast.  I see a strong similarity between that goal and Jesus' parable where the father sends servants to the highways and biways of the world for the purpose of filling vacant seats at a party.

A noble goal.

One which I believe can be accomplished through a multiplicity of frameworks.

A few.

If religion is a framework or blue print that shapes or directs how our faith should play out does our inability to follow it precisely reflect upon the plan being flawed or the worker being flawed.  Flawed meaning "not perfect." in the classical sense of sin?

I suspect many of us bring an idealized worldview to the table of discussion and yet we, as champions of that idealized worldview are by no means ideal advocates.  I think this is where the notion of excluded or included other has a tremendous impact on the discussions.

We see, creeping into discussion (when it is not leaping boldly) a willingness to point to how the other is different and devalue those differences.  Whether that is right or wrong is not absolute.

For example, I get frustrated.  That frustration colours dialogue with other person A.  Other person A is pushing certain buttons.  Pretty ordinary stuff.  If the other is one I have excluded then I interpret that button pushing as a) deliberate and b) malicious.  If the other is one I have included then I may interpret that button pushing as a) accidental and b) innocent.  Button pushing is not an either this or that event.  There are times when it may be a) deliberate and b) benevolent.

I would hope that most of our discussion here is of that latter type.  So much of it being so depends on how we view the other.

For example, Beshpin has decided to leave or take a break.  By way of parting he admits that you push his buttons and he doesn't like who he becomes because of that.  My read is that he finds your button pushing to be a) deliberate and b) malicious.  You are the excluded other.  If there is a way for him to include you I would expect that he would still find the button pushing to be a) deliberate.  The question would be what you are hoping to accomplish with him and that would decide whether b) is malicious, innocent or benevolent.

Until the two of you are mutually included your action, no matter your intent, will be seen in a certain light and interpretted in a certain way.

Which then moves back to how you will comport yourself.  It is not my intent or design to tell you how you must behave.  I mean you are my elder and I respect your advanced years.

This would be where the integrity of how you walk is determined by how you talk (it is the same for all of us--we are judged according to our shtick).

How do we, who may genuinely want to include the other engage that other who has excluded us and show them that we have not returned that favour?

Seriously, how do we do that? 

Grace and peace to you.

John

Naaa...Gershwim, Earl "Father" Hines, Fats Waller, Alex Tempelton...Lizst...Chopin...

 "heaven" ... "outside."

where my dog is waiting...

"waiting" requires linear time. As you no doubt already know, time has no meaning. Neither, clearly, does "waiting."

Dang I forgot. So THAT's why they all go around with stopped wrist -watches. But yeah, my dogs are having a great time...

You know I'm gonna draw a map of that place...

By all means. Just remember that a map assumes a fixed and unchanging landscape. "Heaven", like "God", is ever-changing, ever-becoming.

How are you at drawing quantum maps?

Well, I'm good and bad. Great and terrible.

The kind where the features are dependent upon the observer?

Quantum territory is unmappable, but the map is not the territory...so it is. And isn't.

So of course, and certainly not!

Thoughts?

David

[/quote]

Well, I don't have to get into heaven—I AM in heaven!

I AM.

-God

I and the Father are one.

-Jesus

a statement which resonates with me.

I can't think of a better summation of what I capitalize as the Message of the Christ.

Thanks

David

No such thing as late online is there? Merely time-shifted 

As usual, you comment more than I have time to respond to at one time (not a criticism - just to be clear), so let me just grab a piece at the top.

Thanks for the feedback on "my" religion, although I used the title more as a way to pick up on besh's question than to make this about "me."  What others have shared about the point, or absense thereof, of "their" religion is much more interesting I think.

You give me the opportunity to speak to a term that permeates Golden Rule thinking, but which I have trouble with - "other".

I think that being "other-centered" is a positive step. However, I think the challenge is to, as Thich Nhat Hahn put it "awaken from the illusion of our separateness."

"Other" maintains the concept of separateness. I think there's a distinction to be made between individuality and isolation/separation. 

You mention "reconciliation" as key. I would have to ask "reconciliation to what?" If we are not separated, what is there to be reconciled to? 

I'd more readily use the word "recognition" instead. Once we recognize the "unity in our diversity", then harming that diversity, or conversely failing to lift it up, is as much "self-harm" as it is "other-harm".

That's very kind of you to say.

David

Hi GoldenRule,

Maybe.  It isn't one that I spend a lot of time worrying about.  I learned early on that I am limited.  Instructions like "keep your hands to yourself" only work if there is, in fact, self and an other.  You are you and I am me.  Together it is we.  I don't think we are interchangeable.  At least not in every circumstance.

If, for example, I take a call on the phone intended for you and do not pass a message on you do not know that the call came in or what it was all about.  We are different and not the same.  Hence, other.

Depending on what does with the other one is either building a community or ensuring that there will not be one.  The included other is an individual who is as flawed as I am myself and I do not hold that against them.  The excluded other is an individual who is also similarly flawed and yet I do punish them for it.

There is "connection" it tends to be one of circumstance.

"If" there is no separation then there is no need for reconciliation.  "If" there is separation then reconciliation brings that which is separate back into mutual orbit.  Based on simple observation I would not say that Beshpin and yourself are one.  Granted there are some similarities not enough that the two of you are indistinguishable from one another.

Hmmmmmm.  Maybe.  Although I think that there is some other recognition which trumps that recognition.  I think folk recognize that something is other pretty quickly, hence all the various labels that exist.  And within that other we recognize that which is harmful and that which is harmless.  We also react to what presents itself in different ways.

I think, for the most part such recognition and response is visceral and we spend very little time examining the whys and wherefores.

Question.  If we are not separate is any compliment that you pay to me just you patting yourself on the back?  

Grace and peace to you.

John

Religion does have a point, and it is sharp... which is why religion must be handled with great gentleness and care, lest it poke you and break your skin.

Hi Witch,

I thought it was just Gumby religion that was Pokey?

Grace and peace to you.

John

I can believe that the only point to religion is at the end of a stick.

Looking at the GR's opening post, I don't see much of a difference from my own position that we have to outgrow our imaginary friends and break down those old differences.  I simply don't see how that will be accomplished by hanging on to belief in ancient stories about supreme beings.  I think we will have to let go of believing the stories, though they will undoubtedly remain cultural influences for generations to come. 

Define "believing the stories", chansen. I don't believe them in the sense of taking the literally or even in the sense of them pointing to a "higher reality". I do believe them in the sense that I believe one can, with thought and discernment, learn some real truths about being human and living in relationship to each other and the broader universe from them. From this standpoint, I do agree with your final statement. However, I think that they can still be more than that even if we do "outgrow our imaginary friends". 

Mendalla

It won't.

Nor will attempting to make the only definition of God one that can be easily dismissed as a "story".

That's been the point (no pun intended) all along hansen. We both agree that Zeus-god is untenable. The difference is that, for you, you have to maintain that as the only definition of "God" as much as besh or jae do. You so you can dismiss it in the belief that science will answer all things, they in the belief that "God" will.  Both extremes require Certainty.

It is living in the Uncertainty where "God" is found.  A concept that fundys both theistic and atheistic find so totally unacceptable that they have to pretend it doesn't exist.

Ah, hansen, but you believe that "breaking down those differences" will happen when everyone adopts your worldview. No different than ac, jae or anyone else who says "do it my way and live."

What of those who want to celebrate and encourage our differences? How do we value diversity if only one view is "right"?

And on a "simple" level I would agree with you.

I hadn't realized you considered faith to be that simple John. If you want to argue that a red shirt is not a blue shirt because we call the blue one a shirt and the same word cannot be used twice, I guess that's up to you.

For me, you, me, beshpin, hansen, ac, .... are indeed "one."

We are also individuals.

Yep, that would be a question.

indeed sir.

Being a crochety old man is a matter of continual practice. Thank you for the recognition.

That, as i know you are well aware young fella, is also a matter of continual practice.

Seriously.

David

I don't know that you can't live by doing it in a way other than my own.

All I know is this: Never wear a red shirt on an away team.

My apologies if I misunderstood your position jae. I had thought that you believed accepting Jesus as your Lord and Saviour as the only way to salvation. Was I incorrect?

Or, in the original Star Trek series, on an away mission. Certain death.

Yes, I do believe that with all my heart. I do not however know it to be true.