Is your local church not open to the idea?

graeme, you assume that Moncton clergy are reading thios forum.  Then when you get no response you will complain about their cowardice (if past history is any guide).when you have no idea if any of them have even seen it.

However, a more direct (and politically interesting approach) would be to post this open invitation in the letter to the editor of the local newspaper.  Then, even if the clergy don't read it, people in Moncton will.  And that might give you a clear sense of how much interest in such a thing there is.

I don't know.

I was very active in my Montreal UC (Beaconsfield United) and we several times filled the sanctuary. I also had a good, if small, group, at the UC church in a village where I used to live in New Brunswick. (Baie Verte) - and where I sometimes led services and taught Sunday School..

But life has been more than a little tumultuous over the last four years. I have not established myself in any church in Moncton.

Your implication, that I should simply drop in and see a minister, is quite sensible. But i feel quite awkward about doing it - wjhich is probably foolish.

It's been on my mind tonight because i've been thinking of the meaning of forgiveness, and how our failure to understand forgiveness (though we usually think we do understand it) inteferes with our ability to understand what is going on. And what is going on is one of the great turning points of history - the sort of time I would prefer not to live in.

Beaconsfield United is a very unusual, active church (I lived there and attended there many years ago). Culturally, it would be very different from Moncton (never lived there but lived in other parts of NB).

yes, it's certainly possible people in Moncton are not interested. new Brunswick is like a company town. The Irvings own and control just about everyhing, including the newspapers which many Senate studies have found to be appallingly unethical. There's a fear of public discussion that runs very deep.

And I have been critical of the local clergy for not addressing what seem to me to be serious moral failings in the government and corporate leadership of this province. however, i do not intend back off on criticism of the church just to woo goodwill. One of the reasons I feel a little detached from the church is because i see us tumbling into situations with profound moral implications, While the church has taken up some involvement at the upper levels, it hasn't been nearly so active in the community. It has too often made the worship of God the sole focus of action without considering the will of God for our behaviour in daily life.

And it's true that there is no reason to believe that Moncton clergy read this site. But I know there are church members who do.

DKS - the even bigger difference, the one I most notice, is the difference between the synagogue and the church. My experience of the synagogue is that it is far more morally and intellecutally alive than the church. And we have only one, small synagogue in Moncton.

Consider the proposition of impressing a fear of knowing. In past history this was done through story and drama ... people tend to accept story as such as truth without question ... even though the biblical authority tells us to question all things ... even the ominous. That would be idealistic no? You can't question which has been impressed by some that we should question ... especially if questioning the powers is questionable. Exodus 20:19 for instance ...

Consider questioning the NB powers ... is like questioning Caligula ... and was this Caesar dependable for continuing support? Nos Hiites ... right up there ...as if something smells ...

Is one to question even the ominous, omnipotent, omnipresent and omniscient ... espectially if the latter is found drifting? Such is the context of I Thessaloneans 5:21 ... but I've been steered away from that by biblical authority ... leading me to a humbler position of those looking at the backside ... Ba'aLems As's as a role'n 2-humper? Beats a single clapper ... a 2-bit clause of putting trust in emotional intelligence ... why the abstract is married to the absolute ... and if you look around at those that deny the abstract process ... you will find stone in the soup ...

They do cause a splash though as dissonance in the pool that may arrive at destructive and constructive light on the situation ... a led Ur to change ... a heavy handed psyche ... be awe-suml without a bit of care ...

Some balance is helpful ... but don't tell that directly to the monads! Give eM the power of didimus ... Shadow of doubt? They'll never deal with such a hand ... too frightened of what they don't know ...

Frightened people are easy to impress and look at all the powers (bull, torus) beyond us forming pas tor with true uncre for the population of demos inconvenient population under them. That would be the gnome of demo-crazy ... or if you lost your head over the entire population that could turn sour. Small points in the pile ... do not believe in such underlying energies ... leading people like the Tzars and Gael Monarchy down the garden pathe ...

They save you're soul ... but then was it lost or just so unused it no longer functions in the human collective? That wod be an integral loss in the abstract ...rite Suë lamen in the crossing ... if I was God's soul ID be piscine off tu ...

Why psyche is seldom seen today as single binomial cede ... they can't get enough together in an emotional dimension to gather thoughts ... we blue IT?

I don't know ... but it strikes me in the thorax as a gutte feeling that there will be chiite to pay for what's been dunne Eire ... like don ques Nos ... snot funny but yah gotta laugh if you know your destined for removal ... as an alien case study ... etudée? Then there is the twin double entendre ... what was intended for the parse ... the words tuit were forgo'due ... no interest in the knowing portion of the larger myth ... huge story that we do not imagine ... just can't ... do not have the abstract side; losdite ... cos 've institutionalization!

If the devilish mind gets you ... would you become a profound thinker?

How about cutting to the chase with a bit of street theatre? (and pass around a few handbills?)

You might even find the Irving papers inadvertently gave you coverage… media often underestimate the danger of that sort of thing.

usually, they won't even publish the library's community announcement for my current events group.

I've been now to seven or eight major demonstrations in Moncton. The times had a reporter (an intern) at only one of them. Her story never even mentioned what the demo was about.

To cover the ground more thoroughly, i've mentioned my request to the clergy ini my blog. at least 150 people (the ones from Moncton) read it every day. I still haven't had any clergy beating at the door.

Hi  graeme -- I wish you good luck , with your prodject. I know the Irvings ,they carrey a lot of power in the eastern  provinces. I had worked for them , and know they can be nasty.They can also be nice if they want something. They do contro the radio, TV, and Newspaper there. God Bless.

AC,

You do know the Gods ...

And they are not nice and have closed souls ... that's like a mind in metaphorical terms ... needs the devil to open em up!

Time is coming ... like Piscine flow ... sometime isolated folk don't see the rivers ... blind with familiarity ... and what they don't know ... that's dangerous! Until you get to the other side ... that's another page eh ... for those that have no appreciation forth theole thing ... what's pas ... true san' ... real nite's gritty ...

Many live in false reality, having no abstract side ... knowing the alien ... powerful people bull-heh eM into the fringes ... and wonder why life is hostile ... as it comes back atcha' ... as Eris in tale ... that's th' word ... mire storah? Or sum thin els' ...

well, no response so far. I had not expected one.

My post here sufely reached some church=goers in Moncton - and maybe ben some clergy. It certainly reached some clergy here who have means of contact with those in Moncton.

Similarly, It has had some days of ciriculation on my blog, with is largely Moncton since it is aimed at the local newspaper. That means many hundreds of people in Moncton know about it. Some of them must go to church.

And no response.

Boy, if only I could tell Bible stories using finger puppets.....

It has all got me thinking of a vaguely realted topic.

Remember the hippies? peace? love? and yes, drugs and self-indulgence. They may have been the last, great Sunday school generation. By the sixties, the churches losing the young people.  It was holding them through Sunday school. So they were familiar with some of othe obvious christian principles - like peace and love.

But they were also the children of a world inclreasingly materialisitic, and detaching if self from the churches. The faith of the parents, never all that deep, had become lip service. It had become a world in which it was easy for the yourg people to slip away. But their hippie movement, for all its packaging, was essentially the Christian message - minus Christ. Their understanding was shallow and, like their parents, their attacment to it was largely lip service.

That may be why the  hippies grew up to elect the Bushes and Stephen Harper.

Current protest movements are not like the hippie movement. Products of the post-Sunday school generation, they talk very little of peace and love. They don't wave flowers or try to be beautiful. Their protest is pure anger.

Curiously, this may be the chance for our churches to rejoin the world. to blend the protest with Christian principle, and this time time to ingraim more than  lip service

The lumpenproles of Moncton have let you down.
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Following the Greek election and the Euro crisis?
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I'm surprised no one's talking about it.

Three days later and what you predicted has come to pass.

On Friday someone came to me, enquiring about setting up a public interest group in my church. I gave her the contact info and wished her luck. I'll do the same for you - here is a website that lists all of the United Churches and their contact info: http://marconf.ca/presbyteries/chignecto/. My friend recognized that it was her responsibility, not mine, to make the contact and set up the group. Graeme, I hope you will realize the same thing. Good luck.

why dont you do a workshop on forgiveness with the clergy here?

Shucks Graeme. I'm a regular here, and I just saw your thread today.

Someone who infrequentl posts has an even slimmer chance.

I've always found a "push" type of communication is better than a "pull".

In addition, a church is going to want to know who they are welcoming in their door to offer a program.  There is something to be said for building relationships in a community.

The post also appeared in my very local blog which draws a hundred and fifty to two hundred and fifty readers every day. And a simple check of my name in google would raise at least hundreds of thousands of sites dealing with me - including two years of weekly spots on CBC Moncton.

As well, the churches and the clergy of Moncton keep a lower profile than a snake.

New Brunswick is a company town. Nobody asks questions. And that certainly includes the churches and the clergy.

No. I have often enough been disappointed by the church. I don't intend to go to it like a street beggar - especially since ai already know its response. As well, I reach a far larger audience with my blog than I am likely to reach with any church-----

well - with the exception of a church of sorts that calls itself Wesleyan. It appears to be a very commercial operation with two sanctuaries (one designed for television), many clergy, a private school, many rental facilities, and a requirement to produce a tax statement in order to gain membership (monthly contributions to be based on the tax statement.) It's show biz.

As to relationships, I have them with my former church in the countryside -so there is a connection with a local clergyman to check.

Moncton is a city with almost no history of public discussion. An audience gathered for any purpose other than listening to a banjo player or making a quilt is highly unusual. You have to live here to understand the power of the Irving family, and how deep it reaches into the society - everywhere and at every level.

Oh - easternorthodix - good to see  you. The Eurocrisis has barely made it into the Irving owned newspapers (which means all of them.)  The papers are usually filled with trivia. There is huge fear of the spread of shale gas drilling in New Brunswick. Polls show a majority opposed to it. But the Irving papers have mentioned it only to say what a wonderful thing it is. (Irving is one of the gas companies involved). the Liberals and Conservatives are both quite openly puppets of the irvings. The finance minister (a former exec for Irving) is advised by a committee appointed by Mr. Irving.

Another irving who own the local hockey team wants a new and extravagant rink for it it - a hundred million dollars at least. He won't build it himself because he knows it will never pay - so it's now being pushed as a city and province project for the taxpayers. To get further support, they're tacking on a civic centre that won't ever pay for itself, either.

This whole province is a company town in which nobody criticizes the boss and nobody discusses what he doesn't want discussed.

There is a huge change going on in the world. It goes far, far beyond the eurocrisis. In fact, there are at least three, huge crises - all linked. And you will not hear about any of them in New Brunswick.

OMG. Graeme get over yourself

Perhaps no one is interested in your thoughts.

Perhaps you have been such an a..hole since you got there that they avoid you like the plague

Perhaps your obvious disdain for N B and it s people have turned off all

Just. Bloody well move back to Montreal where you can once again be one of the chattering elite

You want a invitation to speak at a church, establish a relationship.

Meet with the minster one on one.

Meet with the board

Submit a proposal

Or just leave, you so obviously have no respect for the people of NewBrunswick

I wouldn't expect the Euro crisis to be a big topic in our local Victoria paper. It's a difficult thing to understand.
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I find best coverage to be in the Financial Times (based in London, England), which has readers all over Europe. In fact, I've learned much from the comments!
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No it's not the only problem, it is related to the 2008 crash in the US. Which is another huge topic itself.
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Canada barely gets a mention. The main references are things like,
"Canada and Australia, resource-rich countries with low population densities have not felt the worst effects of the global downturn."
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However, this thing is going global. China is slowing down--they were still going strong even after 2008 (and buying lots of BC lumber) but the downturn in Europe has been the last straw for them, as they are dependent on people buying their exports.
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So expect the storm to head this way next.
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Re: the shale gas: controversial from what I have read, there are significant risks but some say the difficulties can be overcome with better regulation. It should certainly be getting coverage in NB. Your explanation about the Irvings is probably right.
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Try the New York Times. Some states have banned it. NYT has been covering it.

Quebec has banned it.

Ordinary oil has not been made safe, not even with regulation, in over a century. As for shale gas, you cannot pump toxins into the earth, then pump them out with billions of gallons of fresh water without poisoning the water and the land. As for regulations, New Brunswick has just enacted some - after a dozen years of drilling. And it enacted them only after intense public pressure. they are nowhere close to adequate and, significantly, the government has set up no structure to enforce them.

You haven't seen open and obvious corruption until you've lived in New Brunswick.

What's happening, i th ink, is the fall of the western empire -  which will not be without repercussions in Asia and Africa.

Capitalism became twisted into a grotesque perversion of what it was supposed to be - and it is destroying itself.

Last pointe - you will be stunned to hear I ihave friends who ae locals, and who agree with me. As well, there have been several investagations by the Senate of Candian newspapers. Everyone one of them has condemned the behaviour of the irving papers.

In Montreal, I had large audiences - but very rarely of the chattering elite. nor did I socialize with them.

As to respect for the people of New Bruswick, I have plenty - and plenty of worry. This province faces a number of crises - and the people are quite powerless to deal with them.

I like to help people.

You life to moralize and point the finger.

Um... that is simply not true. Moncton was the hub of the bilingualism debate in New Brunswick. It was blood sport, back in the day.

Laste Pointe - you might find it congenial to be a Baptist preacher down here. Their university will not hire gays. Students of any faith are fined if they don't attend chapel. (But it still gets public funding.)  you'd love it.

There you go again, Graeme, sweeping statements of doom that are not shared outside a limited circle.
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Capitalism needs some fixes -- notably better regulation of banks and financial transactions--but it is not destroying itself. Your viewpoint is eccentric to say the least.
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It has brought a lot of prosperity to parts of the world, since WW II: Japan, South Korea, Hong Kong, Singapore and Taiwan are either in the "wealthy nation" club or close to it.
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Since abandoning the disastrous experiment with communism, China is moving ahead at record speed. North Korea remains desperately poor, suffering actual famines.
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No better refutation of your statement about capitalism exists than the difference between North and South Korea.
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Sure we are looking at recession, even depression in places like Greece (but not Canada, not yet). But in this inter-connected with it makes no sense to talk of the West in isolation. If the West falls, it will take the rest of the world with it. The leaders of China know this. There is every incentive to work towards a solution, for everyone.
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I'm not going to get into a fruitless argument.
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Lastpointe is justified, I thought you were rather rude to her on another thread.
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I have been at home for several weeks with an injured arm, so I have drifted back here, temporarily. I'll be off again soon.
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Final note on shale gas: I don't know much about it and NEITHER DO YOU. That won't stop you carrying on as though you were a trained engineer however.

Graeme why don't you hire some promoters and rent your own hall? Or you could just set yourself on fire, but I don't recomment that.

Most of all, i would like to cut mysefl off- and just paint. Only yesterday, I discovered pastels. It's a whole, new word out there.

rent a hall? Getting a room isn't the problem. It's getting people in a society that has almost no open discussion. (That includes language. The "discussion" includes only people who are all on the same side, and consist of rant sessions.  No. In Montreal, I was spoiled by a Jewish community which has a long interest in open discussion. I needed to create something like that here. and a church seemed to be a natural base. Alas! that requires the cooperation of a minister. And the only such minister i have known down here retired several years ago.

I was rude last pointe on an earlier thread. I often (always) do that to people who are rude to me.You'll notice that eastern orthodox has that rude tendency, too. But I have a soft spot for her. So you'll notice I am not rude in the following segment.

No,  EO. I'm not an expert engineer. I'm not an expert economist. I'm not an expert doctor. I'm not an excellent road builder. I'm not an expert on climate change. I'm noto an expert on law. There's really very little Im an expert on. So I guess we voters are not permitted to discuss any of those things we're not experts on. In fact, it means we should just put democracy away.

Now I think of it, drilling engineers are not experts on toxic chemicals and their effect on natural llife. Gee! That makes it better . none of has to think about anything any more.

As to the success of capitalism, may I point out all the places that have to be poor and repressed in order for capitalism to bring prosperity to us? Think of the resources and foods we get from lower than slave labour in Africa, Central America, Asia. Think of your computer which is cheap because millions of Chinese have to work for low pay in appalling conditions. Think of the slavery that created th start-up wealth of the US. Think of the slaughter of native peoples that gave us and the US the vast wealth of goldmines, farm land, cattle land. (Oh, think of the tens millions who died in the slave trade.) Think of the millions of american blacks who still live in slums as their inheritance of those good old days. Think of the million Iraqis killed and the rest left in poverty so that we could have their oil. Think of the iran that is going to meet the same fate. Think of the poverty of Haiti, a poverty that has been created by a century of free-ranging capitalism. Think of Guatemala next time you enjoy your capitralist-supplied Chiquita banana. Think of the more than a quarter million who were slaughtered their to keep your banana cheap. Think of the pollution and the suffering of povery inflicted on Congo, Guatemala and other other contries by Canadian mining capitalists notorious for their polluting and cruelty. Think of how China was kept poor for two centuries because western capitalism wanted it poor. Think of how Cuba lived under the conditions of a barbarous diectator supported by the US to supply us with cheap tobacco and sugat. Think of how the "communist' Castro freed Cuba so that children now can go to school, that it has become a major producer of doctors, That it now has a better healrh rate than the the US - despite 50 years of US, captialist enbargis, and sponsorship of terrorist attacks including the bombing of a hotel and of a civilian airliner. (The man who bombed the airliner now lives in protection in Miami.)

Empires are about creating poverty in the conquered nations. Imperialism is simply an extended version of the slave trade. Britain, France, Spain, Canada, US all got rich out of conquest and military power, our of the creation of millions upon millions  of poor. Now, even in Britain, Canada, US, Greece, Spain capitalism is creating a tiny number of very rich and the expense of creating huge numbers of poor. Obama's latest budget cut school lunches for poverty-stricken children so he could boost defence spending without raising the taxes of the rich.

Historically, capitalism has created wealth, mostly for a few, by creating poverty for vast numbers.

Don't get all your news from the New York Times.

Explain the difference between North and South Korea.
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And no fact-free rants. I want sources. And do not wander off the topic.
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Don't read the New York Times, he says. Nope, they're trash, not up to your lofty standards which consists of
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1) reciting over and over like a broken record things that happened long ago (I accept that these happened. Yes, you right).
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2) making stuff up about the present, or telling half truths, which are absurd exaggerations.
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On second thought, don't bother, I won't discuss anything with you again.

one's North and one's south.

Oh, the southern one was run by a US supported dictators into the 1980s.

The northern one is run by a crazy killer? ever hear of the slaughter of civilians in Laos and Cambodia by US bombing? No North Korean leader has ever matched that.

ever hear of Batista - or of the numberous and very brutal dictators installed by the US in Central america?

ever hear of the Shah of Iran? Ever hear of his brutality? Ever hear of how and why the US destroyed Iranian democracy to put him in power?

All of the above were capitalist. Don't look for connections where none exist.

Guess which country ranks lowest in the developed world for equality of opportunity? The figures just came out today. Guess who came out the worst for unbalanced distribution of wealth?

Guess what capitalism means. It does not mean the pillaging we are seeing all over the world going under the name of capitalism. Nor is their any doctrine I know of in capitalism which requires mass murder.

Are you sure you know the difference between capitalism and the economic system that is now brutalizing the world?

Is there a solution to all this madness Graeme?

No solution, Waterfall. Graeme has very strange ideas, although he is well-informed on some topics and on those topics he is fine.
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Notice how rather than answer my question on North/South Korea he just veered off and discussed something else unrelated. The statements he made were true, but irrelevant to my question.
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You are free to believe what he says, but he does represent a small minority. That's not likely to change.
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The problem is, we have no other useable system but capitalism.
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What Graeme says about the Latin American dictators is true. The US did install compliant brutes (and some of them were very bad) in many of those countries. But that was 1980's and earlier.
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And they did not, it is true, practise capitalism as it was laid out by Adam Smith. It was closely akin to slavery, with a tiny number at the top enriching themselves at the expense of the rest.
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But that particular model--tiny number on top, the rest in misery, was standard in all recorded history (except for hunter / gatherers). Once we became farmers, this model clicked in (think of Europe in the middle ages, with the serfs).
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But the Industrial Revolution and Adam Smith-style capitalism gradually made a huge difference. True, there was overseas slavery. But many other innovations, like the steam engine, helped create wealth without enslaving people. At first, the factory workers didn't do very well, but with time, strikes and trade unions, a level of wealth was reached that had never been equalled in history.
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It has spread, most successfully, to the far east. I am not quite sure if Graeme blames say, the prosperity of Japan, strictly on them exploiting others. Perhaps. I hear Japan is also moving factories to China.
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Why most of Latin America have not made a similar jump is unclear. There are various theories. It is ridiculous to place all the blame on the US. After all, the US bombed Japan to rubble in WW II, then occupied the country for several years. Yet they have become very prosperous.
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Hong Kong is a puzzler too. A British colony until the the 1990's (I forget the exact date), it is now quite prosperous. Despite being colonized. And even stranger, when the British lease ran out and they had to return it to China, there was a huge exodus of residents to the West (many of them are now living in greater Vancouver). But China has not treated Hong Kong so badly. The Chinese are smart, they will not kill this golden goose.
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Graeme extols Castro. He would not say much good about Mao Zedong. Under his communist govt millions died in famines or in prisons. But after the death of Mao, Deng Xiaping realized the future was with capitalism. He only had to look at the prospering residents of Hong Kong, Singapore and Taiwan. So China converted. It is a huge country with a large population, some still living very poorly, but millions more living much improved lives.
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Is there a pattern? I honestly don't know. Hong Kong remains the financial capital of Asia (and London remains the financial capital of Europe). Another city colonized by Portugal, Macao, has become the gambling capital of east Asia.
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The situation is much more complex and nuanced than Graeme lets on. Entires libraries have been written on these topics. I would be open to debate, but it appears hard to do with Graeme. He keeps veering off the topic, returning to a few stock episodes that show the US at its worst. He won't talk about anything else.
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For example, real progress has occurred in parts of Latin America. Chile is doing well, but not Argentina. Brazil is much improved lately, but they a ways to go. The difference between Argentina and Chile is very strange. They were both colonized by Spain, with significant numbers of indigenous surviving. They both have many natural resources. Sometimes, you are tempted to think a single leader made a difference, for good or ill.
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(In the Middle East, I truly think Ataturk made a huge difference to Turkey. Turkey is the most prosperous ME nation, excluding the oil states and Israel. But are we hearing colonist echoes? Turkey colonized the Arab world for centuries.).
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These topics are the subject of much discussion. Although Graeme knows perfectly well that colonization has been practised throughout history, with a changing cast of characters and cultures, he won't discuss anything except Western colonization.
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Not many people who read such trashy tabloids like the New York Times and the Financial Times would be able to debate with him either. This limits his audience and will always do so.

EO, you nuance where there are no nuances.

I did not avoid your question. I really wasn't sure what it was. that one is rich and the other poor? that one is capitalist and the other communist (sort of?) that one is a democracy and the other a dictatorship?

All true. but to link all those things as cause and effect is absurd. There are many parts of the world where there is capitalism and poverty. capitalism and lack of democracy.

Communism is a failure? I don't know. I never seen a communist society. The USSR and China never were, any more than the US is now capitalist. In fact, the US and Canada are now welfare states for big business. Democracy in the US died a long time ago - and it's fading fast in Canada. In the US political life is unspeakably corrupt - and the constitution is largely a dead letter. (for example, the US has repeatedly attacked countries without congress declaring war. The protection against big money taking over government has been ripped out. The right to be charged, to have a lawyer and to be tried before sentencing is now optional.)

All human systems become debased and twisted. All can work - for a time. It's a big mistake to see any one of them as the answer forever - or even as the best available.

Capitalism is breaking down. It can only be sustained by contintuous war and conquest to provide it with the resources to pillage. That's what the increasing involvement of the west in Africa is all about.

At home, we are seeing capitalism surviving by increasing suppression. It needs hatred and foreign enemies to sustain any national unity and to avoid examination of internal problems. In the western world, we are watching a degree of domestic espionage unmatched even by the Tsars.

maintaining a cvilized society will always be a matter of adapting, changing, sometimes a bit to the left and sometimes a bit to the right. But the power that exist in the western world and China have no interest in changing or adapting. out of that refusal comes breakdown and violence.

Oh -I should say that my criticism of lack of public discussion may be unfairly laid entirely on New Bruinswick. I lived most of my time not, as last pointe would have it, with the chattering elite. I spent it in the Jewish community. That was the live element in Montreal. Moncton's problem may not be that it is in New Brunswick, but that it is so Christian. I spoke in a few Christian churches.. But the intellectual vitality was in the synagogues. Christians seem to be a pretty dreary lot.

It was also mostly among Jews that I found the practical living of what I had thought were Christian principles, but had rarely seen among Christians.

Maybe what Moncton needs is a bigger Jewish community.

Graeme
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Could you kindly place spaces between your paragraphs? I find the continuous text hard to read. If you have put in a space but it doesn't show, put a period on the line.
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I don't doubt that a Jewish community would make Moncton more interesting. I long ago noticed that Jews are way over-represented as writers and thinkers.
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My arm (the injured one), is too sore to type anymore. Especially on the iPad.
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I will ponder your remarks.

EO,

You are most unusual for a North American.......

I'm often surprised how little political interest there seems to be outside of your own backyard.

From an outsider's perspective the USA is known for navel gazing.

  But, it seems to me, that Canadians are so hell-bent on proving that they're NOT American that they are in danger of becoming too insular in their politics -and concerned with just what it means to be Canadian as opposed to American.

I see it as a geography thing....

Australia, by comparison, has a geography that sees us separated from everyone -so thus there is a tendency to give global coverage just to remind ourselves that we're not alone.......

At present Europe is in crisis - as is the Middle East.

For my money, it dwarfs local politics in both our countries -and this should be reflected in our media.

umm, Pilgrim's Progress.  is it possible that people are just not discussing it on this forum.

Reason:  our national news channel, cbc is similair to BBC, in addition, my cable channel news includes a BBC station.

If I compare it to when I head to the US, I get very little international news there.

Pinga,

Granted, the US is  not much interested in what happens outside it's borders.........

 But whenever I meet Canadians - whether here, in Canada, or Europe - it seems to me they spend a lot of energy emphasising  that they are not Americans. (often in a manner that is critical of the US.)

I think Canada has much to be proud of - but it can stand alone -it doesn't have to be by way of comparison to the US.

Also, it's not simply if European news is available in Canada - EO seems to find it - but do Canadians listen and discuss it?

I mention it because I think it's important for any continent's inhabitants to think beyond their borders.

(Just a gentle criticism - I still luvs ya!)

I would suggest the same can be said of New Zealand folks to Australia....it is part of being next to a very large, powerful neighbour....who sounds the same (kinda)

Yes, some Canadians do listen and discuss, shucks, at least the people that I know do.  The impact of Greece / Spain on the $$ is definitely on the agenda, as are the fun of the Euro Cup.  The challenge of Palestine / Israel is an ongoing discussion..though, we do tend to get tired of no one having a solution.  Our own invovlement in conflicts....

Yes, though, for most, it is about family, health, job....and then, what time is left....maybe it will be the Euro Cup.  very few folks want to discuss politics.

Many yearsago as a pre-adolescent, I was fascinated by RL Stevenson's novel on isolation ... derived from the Hebrew mahaineim for the sense island mentality. It always fascinates me how we as mortals would rather not know what's going on around us. If you impose such facts and intelligence on an emotional person ... what's the reaction?

Could this be entertaining to other powers beyond our spirit and mentality? If that is so would it just blow the mortal mind? There heh goes ...

We all appear to be infected with some of the above as part of the pool... yet some still questions what's out there ... alien dimensins? You know what mortals feel about mediums and means of crossing that division? Certain oppression arises ...  that's gravid-heh ...

Yet somehow deep within lies a question: "What it we did it different than just blindly falling into line?" Is there a way around a destructive mentality ... like constructing a balanced mind?

I am not an expert in anything and I talk about all things as an idiot ... for in my experiences on working with the experts, it is humbling to see how little they know when making big decisions ... as long as it is cheap and the bottom line is huge ... to elle with people and thus we are ... in dispersed light? Tis hue ij satyr ...

PP,

I'd rather go on a walkabout with King Geoge down under and see really what all thith' under ins about ... myth of Australia? Then there's that Mutant Message from Down Under thing-heh ... devil of a story until opened up in mental space in the spirit of the hole thing ... naked as bruin ... yet a moving doctrine ...

Real people don't like the Complex Surreal ... blanket intelligence defy's brutes ... just out-of-here like gods other side ... cheeky? The light in the sillouette ... that Shadowland again ... Z'Bra or just breast of tho't passing like fey winds! St pêdrè Nos Hiite ... foul Eire is complex  in gammos ... space-di ... or bicameral? Something that just won't go way ...

PP, some Canadians do have an obsession with the US, in a negative way, I've met them and talked to them. Not all, of course.
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Pinga, no, people on this forum don't talk much about anything outside Canada. I used to start threads on it, when I was posting more. I found it was hard to explain the Euro crisis, and nobody, even Graeme, read those threads. Economics is a weird subject in a lot of ways, yet it has a huge impact on all of us.
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Another day with this wretched pain in my arm. Pilgrims, I'm definitely feeling old today. Old and tired.
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Perhaps Pinga could mount a defense of capitalism? I'm not up to it now. Really feeling drained.
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The Euro crisis is really heating up today. If the bond rates go over 7% for Spain, they enter the "death spiral". I'll go off and read about the latest news.

Hi WaterBuoy-- You posted---

AC,

You do know the Gods ...-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Airclean-Post-- Ofcourse I do , don't you?

EO - you can tell what I'm reading?

Sorry to hear your arm is giving you so much trouble. Is there no way to ease the pain? (No. Don't even try to answer that until you feel better.)

I remember the first time I felt old - and tired. I was walking up a hill - well, trotting. It wasn't a big hill. I stopped just at the top, with a dreadful tiredness that said,"This is it. real life is over...." I was 29.

Objection! Your honor, may it please the court, after dutiful and painstaking search

I have come across an error in that I read those threads. I did not contribute for which I plead justifible

abject ignorance.

I lean a lot on Paul Krugman...

At last! A topic about which I AM an expert. Much training. Much experience.

Benefits:

You can without shame put off doing what you thought you had to do today.

Less is demanded of you,

Heavy lifting is always done, when needed, by someone else.

"I forgot" becomes an acceptable all-purpose excuse.

You no longer have to prove to others that:

You are a terrible dancer

You have nap privileges

You no longer 'fix' things (What else are grandchildren for?)

And

after 50 years of being punctual there is joy in not caring what time it is...

Negatives:

Sometimes there's not a damn thing you can do about a sore arm.

PP, I also think that there are a lot of Canadians ( maybe the same in other countries) that pay no attention to political news of any stripe. They don't read the paper, they don't listen or watch news, they don't follow it on the internet. They do not vote but they really can complain.

This is confirmed in the newspaper business. What sells papers is 'features' like Dear Abby. As well, most people read only a few lines of each storty. That's why a story usually begins with a general story, followed by a sub-head which says a little more (and is where most readers stop).

In that way, one can write a whole story that tells the truth - but lies. You simply bury important things you don't want people to know at the bottom of the story.

As well, the speed at which people read has greatly slowed in the last few decades - probably the effect of reading only short bits - as one a computer or, worse, tweeting.

TV, as well, encourages a short attention span. Thus the use of short speeches and of camera angles that change frequently.

My comment was based on my own observation - so it's just anecdotal and certainly not evidence.......

I've come to believe that geography plays a larger part in our lives than we may think.

Aussies are recognized as being great travellers. I think that this stems from our geography - being an isolated bloody big island in the middle of southern oceans.

We know about the wide world because most of us came from first British and then European and now Middle Eastern and Asian ancestry. This migration has happened in comparatively recent times - thus many of us have parents or grandparents and heard stories first-hand about life "overseas".

We grow up curious about the world beyond our shores - and that, coupled with our recent pioneering history, seems to have given many of us an adventurous spirit.

As a traveller, first to the USA, I observed that the Americans I met had little interest outside America and American interests - compared to the Europeans and British I've met.

Canadians too, seemed focussed on their own and American politics. Where you differ from the Americans is that, whilst Americans barely mention Canadians, Canadians seem most concerned in emphasising the difference between Canada and the US.

As an outsider, I find this intriquing.

I concluded that it was because of your geographical close proximity - and your understandable pride in doing some things better (eg. your health system).

I simply wanted to make two observations.

Firstly, that Canada can stand alone in taking pride in it's achievements -it's not necessary to contrast itself to the US.

Also, by constantly running down the US, you give to an outsider the impression that nothing good can come from the US - which is simply unfair.

Secondly, that this comparison thingie can lead to an emphasis on "what it means to be Canadian" - which can lean to an inward focus.

Finally, I've stated on many occasions and in many threads how fond of Canada and Canadians I am - so please see this as I intended -as a gentle alert and not a personal criticism.

Happy Genius,
Sorry if my memory is poor. That also makes me feel old! Those economic threads did not get a lot of traffic however. But there was some.
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I can type a bit....
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Graeme, did I say I knew what you were reading? I didn't think I did.
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Economcs.
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I've had no formal training. It is a complex topic.
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But I find it interesting because it has a huge impact on our lives.
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The comments at the Financial Times have been instructive, and they sometimes give other links. I was directed to part of a book used at UC Berkeley posted online for example.
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I've read a lot of books on the 2008 crisis. The books have just started in the Euro problem.
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I read Krugman (he had a regular column at the New York Times). But lately I'm starting to wonder about his advice. He is classic Keynes--suggests the US and Eurozone should print money rather than rely on austerity.
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Evidence: spending on WW II got us out of the Great Depression. No argument there. He acknowledges it will cause some inflation but thinks 4% a year is OK. Inflation affects people differently as I am sure everyone knows.
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But I noticed something whilst reading the posted book at UC Berkeley (the chapter was about the 1930's). The author, Brad Delong explained it as if a machine had seized up. He gave an example: men were scrabbling in the dirt looking for bits of coal to heat their houses. Meanwhile, the coal mine was closed.
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But this does not really apply to the present. Millions of jobs have disappeared for two reasons much less prominent in the 1930's.
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1- they have gone overseas where labor is cheap (and labor conditions possibly bad).
2- they have been lost due to advanced technology. The technology may create a few jobs itself, but they require skills the job loser does not have. I've helped put key punchers out of work by writing computer programs, for example.
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Krugman also has a book just out. I was hoping it would address these issues. But the reviews say it is short on detail, nothing more than a collection of his columns. That's disappointing.
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Can't type anymore.

Graeme,
Actually I did say I knew what you were reading! Cripes. My memory isn't what it used to be. Apologies.
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I feel even older now. I think I am kind of distracted, worrying about why this pulled muscle seems to get better, then get worse, wondering if it will ever go away completely. It stops me doing so many things.

Ecco gnome Ichs ...

Something that tells you not to sweat the small stuff!

But what supports the marketplace?

The ultimate object, automate everything and kill of all the mortals but yourself ... it could kill yah though if your crapper fails and nobody's there to carry out yeres hiite ... perhaps the hired help on top of everything don't understand the underpinnings of social order?

Some balance needed between the wee people and those that believe they know gods extent. Often described as a pinhead that knows nothing and othertimes as infinite ... like busted thought ... abreast of intellect. That is a mental idealism mere mortals can't keep up with even if they believe they know gods from both sides of the line separating eM ... populations of black and white ... some weeviling required in de swing ... Michael vs Gabrielle? Can lead to a storm of absent thinking ... what is passion ... lack of mental process ... or perhaps a mind raptured?

Real authorities don't like imaginative people pondering such things and anon essences ... like holes in space ... causes much friction and thus stirs the cosmos ... into a weal ... well-rounded RIP'eL? Egos a long way ... if you catch the drift ... whets the edge to go ...

Does it bother you to hear voices say that we're an emotional race ... that doesn't know when to slow down? It could plug up a flow of emotions with dis tilled tho'T ... sodification of de mire ...

(just a side note for those who like Moncton, someone did a song in tribute to Moncton: 

)

Moncton is a town run on 1920s boosterism. But much if is pleasant in the same way every place of human settlement is pleasant - "where every prospect pleases; and only man is vile..."

When I criticize the US, by the way, I am not putting it down. Why would I waste my time simply putting anything down?

The reality is that the US has invaded every neighbour and near neighbour it has. Almost all t he territory that we now call the US was taken by the US by conquest. (Same for Canada. But we stopped with what is now Canada because there was nobody left to invade.)

The US, in contrast, has done nothing but invade since 1780 or so. after world war two, it is the principal opponent of creating an effective UN, of making international law ineffective, and the principal aggressor for the world. In addition to that, it has become so corrupt and repressive that only a willd-eyed optimist could call it a democracy. It is now, in fact, the principal threat to world peace. (But invaluable to the surivial of Australia and New Zealand - so long as they serve its purposes.)

EO - I think your post hints at the real problem. No humanly designed system works at all times and in all conditions and for all people. Economically, there is no one size fits all.

We have to work constantly at adapting to change. But those who control the economy - especially when they also control the governments - have no desire to change a system that still benefits them. That's what I mean when I said capitalism is destroying itself.

Perhaps it would have been clearer if I had said those who call themselves capialists ae destroying by the self-serving changes they have made in it - and by their failure to adapt the system so it meets the needs of more of us.

You're not old, yet. EO. that doesn't happen until your idea of a thrill is to go to trade shows to see the latest of those snappy bathtubs with doors and seats so you don't have to clamber ofver the side and stand up for a shower.