I'll start off, I guess!

We focussed on Jesus' "Bread of Life" words today, so next Sunday, the focus scripture at St. Andrew's Haney UC is going to be the 1 Kings 2.10-12, 3.3-14 passage.

The Church Board - Elders - of our congregation have been engaged in a practice of discernment for the past six months. I believe that this passage, talking about Solomon's leadership, speaks clearly about where our wisdom needs to be based.

A couple of the questions I'll be thinking about - what is the difference between acting on the basis of our wisdom, and seeking out God's wisdom; how does this passage speak to us about God's giving of gifts to humankind.

Christ's peace - r

My church doesn't follow the R.C.L. I'm a Baptist. We're reading our way through Job.

Hi, Richard -- thanks for getting me started early!  Today we did Ephesians and looked at the letter's advice from the perspective of "this is the good news about the kind of community God is inviting you into."  Next Sunday I'm using the Kings passage as well, and am thinking about wisdom.

It would be easier if Solomon was clearly just the humble, faithful king, instead of also being the shrewd political mover, who has several people killed to consolidate his power and give some "payback" for offenses against David.  Perhaps the complexity is good, though, to acknowledge that we all struggle with the competing claims of faith and "how the real world works."  In my spiritual formation bible, there's some quotes from Richard Foster's The Challenge of the Disciplined Life, about the vows of poverty, chastity and obedience, and how they were designed to respond to the three ethical issues of human life: money, sex and power.  Foster writes: "My own answer, in brief, is this: in response to the issue of money we learn to live in simplicity; in response to the issue of sex we learn to live in fidelity; in response to the issue of power we learn to live in service."  Solomon failed to live with simplicity, fidelity or service.  He married hundreds of pagan wives, pursued money and power even to the point of used forced labour for his massive building projects -- forgetting his ancestors were slaves?

Our congregation is exploring developing our land to create affordable housing, and we're having a meeting after church on Sunday to hear from another congregation who has "been this way before."  So I may want to focus on how to keep our focus on serving God in the midst of real concerns about money, resources, energy, etc.

shalom!

I've just checked our scripture readings for next week. We also must use the "Revised Common Lectionary".

Which just goes to show how much in common the United Church Of Canada has with the Uniting Church of Australia.

Thanks Richard for starting this thread, and thanks also for choosing just one scripture to discuss at a time. 

I like this scripture passage because I find it easy to relate to.  So many times in my life I have felt that "I do not know how to go out or come in." and have to discern what is right.  It is these times that I pray for God's wisdom and guidance.

You said:

"A couple of the questions I'll be thinking about - what is the difference between acting on the basis of our wisdom, and seeking out God's wisdom; how does this passage speak to us about God's giving of gifts to humankind."

In my opinion the difference is that when we act on the basis of our wisdom it is usually based on previous experiences but when we seek out God's wisdom this is not an act based on experience, but rather an act of faith.  "I do not know what to do, please guide me."  Then when the answer comes, we follow with faith in the ONE who guides us.  Sometimes this is a frightening thing to do because we want to rely on our own steam and power, but God can give us so much more than we can possibly do for ourselves.

I'm going to keep reading and reflecting, and I'll come back.

Thanks again for starting this.

Peace, blessings and a hug,

Jae,

I wonder if you'd like to read these scriptures anyway and contribute your ideas to the thread.  I suspect you'd have some helpful ideas to add.

(I'm going to work backwards in my responses :) )

Jae, I agree with busymom. In fact, I'd add that the book of Job includes some interesting commentary around "world wisdom" (the friends suggestions).

Busymom - I don't mind starting it this week. Perhaps we can set up a rotating schedule for the thread starter?

Because the congregation I'm with uses only one of the suggested scriptures, that's probably the one I'll focus most of my attention on, each week. I hope that others will start the conversation about the scripture that speaks to them.

Christ's peace - r

*The Squirrel thinks RichardBott should preach on cannibalism

That was today, EZed - combined this week's reading with next week's and took a look at "language that shocks... and how we've made it pretty". Strange, though, the congregation looked a bit pasty... or even green... by the time we got to the Prayers of the People.

Christ's peace - r

I'm bumping this up. 

I wonder what approach you would take to a children's story with this?

Thanks Richard for starting this thread.  Busymom and I had been discussing this, and I too would like to see it as a regular thing - and would be willing to take a turn getting it started  (I tried it before with mixed results - but no harm trying again.)

This weeks passages.  I too am leading a service this week.  And I can't help but notice how the first three readings:  Kings, Psalm 111, and Ephesians fit together so well.  I just don't see how the reading from the Gospel relates and I will be glad to base my message of the others.

But I'm in a quandray:  because I don't see how Solomon could be considered wise - especially wise in the ways of God.  For beginners he didn't show compassion.  He secured his position on the throne by having all other possible contenders killed - including his half-brothers.  He advanced his power and position by marrying many wives and forming alliances with their fathers.  And, as pointed out above, he built up his kingdom by the forced labour of his own people - forgetting their roots (and his) in slavery in Egypt.  This was something that they were urged to remember - treat others with justice and mercy remembering that you were slaves in Egypt.  But during his reign Egypt came to Israel.  The tastmasters were fellow Israelites.  And despite his power and might - he was only able to hold the kingdom together during his lifetime, soon after his death the kingdom was divided.  That makes me wonder:  how firm a foundation did he build?

But how do I build a Sunday message around that.  It seems more suitable for a midweek discussion group - like this.  Right now I think I will go with something about wisdom and compassion.  I'll wait a day or two more for other comments, and inspiration from the Spirit.  (Although I find the Spirit works best if I do some sweating too.)

My finger slipped and I double posted.

Bumping up again.  I would really like some ideas around my post - was Solomon wise or simply shrewed? - shouldn't wisdom be tempered with compassion?

Busymom - I usually plan for a children's time, often using it to introduce the theme or cover a point of scripture (at a simplified level) that I wouldn't be touching in my sermon.  But at the congregation I'm visiting this Sunday I don't expect any children.  (I'll have to have something just in case.)  I don't see any of the readings that I really jump out at me for young children, except perhaps the psalm about praise and thanksgiving - but our pianist wants that immediately before the sermon with the sung response replacing the anthem which is usually sung at that place except in the summer. 

Here are some of my "ramblings"

I'm wondering if we are being told to honour and respect our "inherited" wisdom from our earthly father (in Soloman's case David)  and our heavenly father. Rely upon this previously built foundation to discern wisdom for every age.  

How often do we think that these things won't apply today in our "modern" age and God is talking only to the people of the old testament?

Yes, waterfall, our ancestors weren't perfect, and neither are we. But they did their best, and so should we. It seems prudent to honour our ancestors and their wisdom and learn from what they did best, so that we may do our best.

Since my last post I've reread the chosen scripture passages over several times and thought about them.  Two phrases have jumped out at me.  One I will use for my children's time / theme time. 

Busymom:  I will probably say something like this:   When Solomon was anointed king he was a bit worried.  He says "I am only a little child".  How old do you think he might have been?  Five?  Ten?    I think he might have been a bit older than that - maybe a teenager or a young man.  But he realized what a big job it would be to be king, and he didn't think he was old enough, or big enough, or smart enough.  He felt that he was too little.  Have you ever felt that way?  When someone expects you to make your bed, or take out the garbage, or get on the school bus all by yourself, do you sometimes think that you are too little?  Even grown-ups feel that way sometimes when they have a big job to do.  But Solomon asked God to help him, to make him wise, smart enough to do the big job of being king - and God promised that he would bless him.    Prayer:  God, sometimes I feel very small.  Please help me when I have important things to do.  Amen.

If there are no children present I will use a modified version to introduce the theme.

For the message the phrase that jumped out at me was "If you walk in my ways, keeping my statutes and my commandments . . ."   The promise was conditional - there was an 'If".  I think I can go somewhere with that.

Sorry Waterfall, Arminius - I was posting at the same time.  I will read your comments and digest them.

As I prep for this morning's scripture exploration group, a couple of thoughts come to mind.

Solomon was granted the gift of wisdom, by God. But, as was pointed out above, his reign became tyrannical. I wonder if part of that was that he was also given the gifts of fame and fortune.

Are our human wills so strong that even God's gift of wisdom can be corrupted by our desires? I think Solomon's story can be an example of wisdom that gets twisted by our humanness.

Christ's peace - r

Wisdom and politicking, compassion and cruelty... all vie for space in the human heart and life.  What strikes me today is that Solomon had an epiphany during his vision - in which he was able to recognize his dependence on God for wisdom.  But that epiphany (like all epiphanies!) doesn't last forever.  We can't coast on one moment of spiritual clarity! The spiritual life is about a relationship, and, as such, demands daily choices and hard work.  Solomon entered into a new space with God, but obviously did not choose to stay there.  Each day we have the choice to take the path of least resistance (go with the flow, no matter how unethical or unloving that flow might be!), OR to walk the more difficult path: spending time in prayer, gathering with community, seeking wisdom, extending forgiveness, loving neighbours and strangers...

shalom

Solomon had his own kind of wisdom before the dream in 1 Kings 3.

First he "took care of" internal politics, by eliminating the Adonijah faction.

1 Kings 2:46 "... The kingdom was now firmly established in Solomon's hands."

Next he started to "work on" external politics, by making a marriage alliance with Egypt (which I assume was the dominant regional power at this time).

1 Kings 3:1 "Solomon made an alliance with Pharaoh king of Egypt and married his daughter. ..."

Only then did he make the sacrifices to the LORD that preceded his dream, his request for wisdom to govern Israel and the LORD's promises to him.

Although his reign is distinguished by remarkable wisdom (from the LORD?), we can also see that Solomon continued to use his natural ("pre-dream") wisdom as well, as he continued to make foreign alliances through marriage.

Great post!  That's what I'm getting from this reading too.  Well said!

(clergychickita blushes)  thanks!

Well, I did it!  I stood in the pulpit today and questioned the long held Biblically based belief that Solomon possessed the gift of wisdom.  It was the message that kept coming to me throughout the week.  I felt that I couldn't go anywhere else.

I used some of the idea I had read in this thread - maybe some exact or almost exact quotes.  Some of you are much more elequent that I am.

I started out with Solomon's moment when he felt very young and not up to the task - only a child - and his moment of epiphany, of seeing clearly his dependancy upon God.  But then I pointed out that he had to come down from that high place and face the day to day decisions that he would have to make.  And in doing so how he seemed to forget the 'If' clause  "If you walk in my ways and keep my commandments."  I went back to the commandment to 'remember you were slaves in Egypt' as a defining element in their history as a people and how Solomon had ignored it when he enslaved his own people through enforced labour to build his capital city and his empire.   And I challanged the people in the congregation to rely upon the example of Jesus who choose the path of humility and servitude in their day to day decisions. 

Small congregation - 20 or so people - but it is a small church and it is summertime.  I had a good conversation with a retired university professor who's opinion I value, as we shared lemonade and fellowship after the service. 

Is anybody ready to start a new thread around next week's lectionary reading.  I will be at a different congregation for the next two weeks.

great job, seeler!

I can start contributing to a new thread on Tuesday morning..

shalom!